Off Peak Travelcard loopholes

[RJ]

To what extent do people agree that Off Peak Day Travelcards (ODT) with the following stations shown as the origin are valid at any time within London, if avoiding stopping services in the Purley/Wallington area? They share a common restriction code.

Carshalton Beeches
Caterham
Kenley
Kingswood
Purley
Purley Oaks
Riddlesdown
Sanderstead
South Croydon
Tadworth
Tattenham Corner
Upper Warlingham
Wallington
Whyteleafe South
Whyteleafe.

The National Rail version of the same restriction code is different and wouldn't permit use before 0930 elsewhere. That said, the version shown on BR fares is what is loaded into Avantix Mobile ticket machines, Avantix Traveller and other booking office software . It's silly that there are multiple versions of the restriction floating around.

Also, a Coulsdon South ODT has a slightly favourable blanket time restriction. I would suggest that it's near pointless in reality to challenge the commonly held view that inboundary Off Peak Day Travelcards are only valid after 09:30 - but it is what it is.....

Whilst I'm on this subject, is the forthcoming Epsom loophole (mentioned in other threads) tenable? Only FGW, Southern and Thameslink currently price outboundary ODTs below £12.00. The Iver ODT will be above £12 in January and it looks like Thameslink have specifically priced their Super Off Peak Travelcards from Cuffley, Gatwick, Potters Bar and Radlett so they're not cheaper than the inboundary Travelcard. Epsom and Leatherhead remain the exceptions, but for how long?

 

[greatkingrat]

I think you could equally argue that the ticket is not valid at all on services that don't pass through one of those stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why on earth does there exist a separate Day Travelcard for a station that is *in* the Travelcard Zones?! (Carshalton Beeches at least, I haven't checked the others)

A Travelcard sold within London is a Travelcard, and the restrictions are uniform per TfL policy, surely? TOCs cannot restrict this in any way further, AIUI. Edit: and in this case they don't, so the restriction seems rather spurious.

On reflection, I wonder if that restriction is just there for administrative purposes, to ensure that the retail systems sell it at correct times only.

Neil

 

[TEW]

The restriction code actually relaxes the uniform 0930 restriction from the named stations to allow travel on a service departing just before 0930.

 

[button_boxer]

Surely the specific conditions for a restriction code have to be read in conjunction with the general conditions for the relevant type of ticket, with the general conditions deciding anything the specific restriction code doesn't cover. For this ticket:

Off-Peak Day Travelcards
(First and Standard) and
Family Travelcards:
Valid for travel throughout
the selected London Fare Zones
from 0930 Mondays to Fridays
(0001 Saturdays, Sundays and
Public Holidays) on the day of
validity and until 0429 the
following day, by which time
all travel must be completed.

which to me says it's valid after 09:30 except where the restriction code says otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The restriction code actually relaxes the uniform 0930 restriction from the named stations to allow travel on a service departing just before 0930.

Ah...how come it can do that? I thought the T&C of that ticket would be defined by TfL?

Neil

 

[CyrusWuff]

Ah...how come it can do that? I thought the T&C of that ticket would be defined by TfL?

Traditionally it would be published as an easement rather than having a different restriction code, but it's generally done where there's a train just before 09:30 and the next one's nearer 10:00.

So, for example, Caterham's first trains after 09:30 are 09:39 to London Bridge, but not until 09:56 to Victoria; and Tattenham Corner's next through train is at 09:49 to London Bridge.

Going back to RJ's original question, however, I suspect you'd be on a hiding to nothing if you tried to use such tickets anywhere else prior to 09:30 despite what the validity text says.

 

[Starmill]

Very bizarre wording indeed. If your train never departs those stations at or later than one of those times, is it valid?

The Coulsdon South travelcard, by contrast, is abundantly clear. A train that departs any station within the validity area at 0915 is valid on that travelcard.

Niel, all of those stations are inside the travelcard zones apart from Coulsdon South.

 

[MikeWh]

Niel, all of those stations are inside the travelcard zones.

Corrected that for you.

 

[Starmill]

Epsom and Leatherhead remain the exceptions, but for how long?

Long enough for Epsom's usage figures to shoot through the roof, let's hope :P Very very lucky for Peter Mudgridge! Southern will want to continue to undercut SWT, and it's their prerogative to price outboundary travelcards so hopefully it can continue.

I'd be annoyed if I lived in Cuffley. Furious, in fact, that TfL's crazy anti-paper ticket policy has increased my fare from £10 to £12 (weekends only) when it almost certainly wouldn't have done if it hadn't had to rise to match the inboundary travelcard.

I wonder if TfL have thoughts on Southern selling Travelcards which undercut the inboundary one. Probably not if Southern continue to provide them the travelcard revenue.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do I understand that it's now going to be a lot cheaper to get a Travelcard from Epsom instead of, say, Ewell West? And that when ( not if! ) Epsom gets put into zone 6 it'll result in a huge hike from the one day Travelcard from here?

 

[MikeWh]

Do I understand that it's now going to be a lot cheaper to get a Travelcard from Epsom instead of, say, Ewell West? And that when ( not if! ) Epsom gets put into zone 6 it'll result in a huge hike from the one day Travelcard from here?

Looks like it. Perhaps that's why they're not that worried about the loophole existing at the moment.

 

[Starmill]

Corrected that for you.

Oops! Duh, my unreserved apologies :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do I understand that it's now going to be a lot cheaper to get a Travelcard from Epsom instead of, say, Ewell West?

Yes. Indubitably in fact - Epsom is always cheaper, from what I can see.

And that when ( not if! ) Epsom gets put into zone 6 it'll result in a huge hike from the one day Travelcard from here?

Well, there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like it. Perhaps that's why they're not that worried about the loophole existing at the moment.

This could well be the case.

Alternatively, because the cheaper Travelcards from Epsom and Leatherhead are route 'Southern Only' this one could be a nice little ORCATS earner for Southern

Although that's dependent on how Southern pay TfL for the TCD revenue. It's also not the first time an outboundary travelcard has been cheaper than the inboundary one, although maybe it is for consistent application and available at ticket offices to!!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Oops! Duh, my unreserved apologies :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes. Indubitably in fact - Epsom is always cheaper, from what I can see.


Alternatively, because the cheaper Travelcards from Epsom and Leatherhead are route 'Southern Only'

Just to be clear, I was referring to the any permitted version of the Travelcard from Epsom compared to the ones from Ewell West / East after the January changes.

 

[a729]

It seems that the Epsom loophole has been closed