EU, Immigration and UKIP

[fowler9]

I had to pay 'bed and board' to my Mum, yes. Then, when I got a better-paid job, I moved into a bedsit and had to fend for myself, and had to work sixty hours a week to make ends meet.

So you worked for that wage when you had to pay bed and board to your mum. Its hardly raising a family and paying your rent, tax, food and all of your utilities then is it! The minimum wage is not enough to live on which is why we have various tax credits etc. I was chatting to a Polish mate last night who came here 10 years ago. He started out cleaning dishes in a restaurant and describes his life at that time as hell on earth, hand to mouth. The problem isn't immigration or benefits, it is the wealthier people not paying enough to live on and I believe that holds true for the entire planet.

 

[EM2]

So you worked for that wage when you had to pay bed and board to your mum. Its hardly raising a family and paying your rent, tax, food and all of your utilities then is it!

You're right, it isn't. But how many of our unemployed are young NEETs (Not in Employment, Education, or Training)?
(http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...eople-not-in-education-employment-or-training)

954,000 people aged 16-24 were NEET in the second quarter of 2014, 13.1% of people in this age group.

Not all unemployed 16-24 year olds are NEET and not all people who are NEET are unemployed. 61% of unemployed 16-24 year olds are NEET, the remaining 40% are in education or training. 47% of people who are NEET are unemployed, the rest are economically inactive: not seeking work and/or not available to start work.

In England, the North East, Yorkshire & Humber, and West Midlands have the highest proportion of 16-24 year olds who are NEET.

Those eligible for free school meals, those who have been excluded or suspended from school, those with their own child and those who have a disability are more likely to be NEET.

From the first quarter of 2007 to the first quarter of 2011, the NEET rate increased in all OECD countries except Austria, the Czech Republic, Portugal, Sweden and Turkey.

Current Government schemes with elements aimed at reducing the number of young people who are NEET include: raising the participation age, the Youth Contract and the Work Programme.

It's these people that I'm referring to that won't take a minimum wage job. Many of them still live with parents (because they can't afford to move out). Why won't they work? Why will immigrant workers do these jobs and our own young people won't?
We got off our backsides and worked hard for a pittance at that age.

 

[fowler9]

You're right, it isn't. But how many of our unemployed are young NEETs (Not in Employment, Education, or Training)?
(http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...eople-not-in-education-employment-or-training)

It's these people that I'm referring to that won't take a minimum wage job. Many of them still live with parents (because they can't afford to move out). Why won't they work? Why will immigrant workers do these jobs and our own young people won't?
We got off our backsides and worked hard for a pittance at that age.

My brother was a NEET. He had a first class honours degree in business. No one in his field would employ him because he had no experience and no managers of shops, cleaners etc. would employ him because they knew they couldn't exploit him. Now my brother is working he goes above and beyond what he has to do so quit it with the can't be arsed stuff. I recently spent eight months on the dole. I had three interviews in that entire time. The third one was for two months work. They instantly offered me permanent when I got my foot in the door. Nine months later I am a manager. You can believe me or alternatively keep believing the rubbish that most people can't be bothered working,

 

[EM2]

47% of people who are NEET are unemployed, the rest are economically inactive: not seeking work and/or not available to start work.

There's plenty that don't have the work ethic of you and your brother.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there a breakdown on the circumstances of the those that are considered to be 'not seeking work'? There are a few things that could make me think that they'd have a good reason for not seeking work but what's the definition exactly?

 

[radamfi]

There are probably millions who don't work because their romantic partner works and so lives off their partner. However, in northern Europe, including the UK, it used to be traditional for young adults to leave home as soon as possible and live off their own wages. Maybe it is becoming more common for these people to live off their parents, in the same way as others live off their romantic partners. For some reason, the former is culturally frowned upon whereas the latter is very acceptable, even considered preferable by social conservatives.

Young middle class people throughout the western world aren't very interested in menial work. It is not just the UK. Eventually they all tend to find an acceptable career, it might just take a bit of time in a time of high unemployment.

 

[Antman]

You're right, it isn't. But how many of our unemployed are young NEETs (Not in Employment, Education, or Training)?
(http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...eople-not-in-education-employment-or-training)

It's these people that I'm referring to that won't take a minimum wage job. Many of them still live with parents (because they can't afford to move out). Why won't they work? Why will immigrant workers do these jobs and our own young people won't?
We got off our backsides and worked hard for a pittance at that age.

Migrants do such jobs because it's better than anything on offer in their own country, Brits would do the jobs if they paid enough

 

[EM2]

Which goes back to the question of the work ethic.

 

[Metrailway]

I had to pay 'bed and board' to my Mum, yes. Then, when I got a better-paid job, I moved into a bedsit and had to fend for myself, and had to work sixty hours a week to make ends meet.

Would you have accepted your £2 p/h job if you were offered a zero hour contract with an exclusivity clause in it?

 

[jon0844]

Which goes back to the question of the work ethic.

Yes, but it's not always like that.

Around here, PCL (Arla diary) and Ocado have each brought in people from abroad, and the agencies have helped organised accommodation - which means many people are sharing rooms.

They're then transported in cars to the warehouses, although in many cases they could probably walk.

Given they're brought over and housed locally, paying low rent given they're in a pretty awful cramped multiple occupancy flat, how does someone 'native' compete? Unless they're local, they'll have to pay to travel which could wipe out their income - especially when working shifts that start or end around 4am. No buses or trains at that time, so you either have your own car or have to use a taxi unless you're close enough to walk or cycle.

Put simply, some jobs are simply not possible for people here and it's no longer possible to just assume that people are too lazy or see those jobs as beneath them. Of course it might be true for some jobs, but not all.

People here might also want to live somewhere that allows them to have their own stuff, or live with other members of their family (partner, children etc) rather than live in a virtually unfurnished flat (bar beds) on their own, because you're not seeking to settle down here.

I am sure that if someone coming over from Poland or Romania wants to get their own place, they'll quickly discover that they need to earn quite a bit more money.

 

[EM2]

Would you have accepted your £2 p/h job if you were offered a zero hour contract with an exclusivity clause in it?

Probably. I happened to know that the last person in the job had been sacked, so there was definitely work available. I was the only cellar-boy, so there was no risk of not having any work week-to-week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Put simply, some jobs are simply not possible for people here and it's no longer possible to just assume that people are too lazy or see those jobs as beneath them. Of course it might be true for some jobs, but not all.

Some. But by no means all.
Let me illustrate with a recent documentary, where a self-confessed anti-immigration Briton was paired with a working immigrant.
The pairing in this case was a young man from Romford, living at home, who said there was no work because immigrants were taking all the jobs, and a French girl, renting a room from a friend, who was a waitress.
He did a shift in the restaurant with her, and was surprised how hard she worked for what she was paid (which was a little above minimum wage). Her (British) boss was interviewed, and he said that in the seven years he'd been in business, he had no more than a couple of applications from Britons, and when he'd employed them, they just didn't work hard enough.
The waitress then helped the unemployed guy look for a job, and took him to an employment agency in Romford, a place he said he never even knew existed! I go to Romford maybe once a month, and I knew exactly where it was! He's obviously never got himself together to actually go and find work.

 

[radamfi]

No buses or trains at that time, so you either have your own car or have to use a taxi unless you're close enough to walk or cycle.

But there must be lots of people who can walk or cycle to these warehouses. Young people living with their parents are even better off than immigrants as they have no rent or living costs at all, unless their parents demand it.

 

[jon0844]

Of course there will be some people who live local and perhaps live at home that could take these jobs. But if they don't, they're unlikely to move for such a low paid job.

It's a lot easier if you're one of a whole group of people transported and housed near your work for the time you work there. Work, eat, sleep, work, eat, sleep for a year or three, then go home.

It's wrong that many British people won't even apply for some low paid jobs (then moan about not being able to get a job) but I am not entirely convinced that some businesses aren't going to turn people down that do apply (assuming they even know the jobs exist if they're not advertised) simply because once you've filled the floor almost exclusively with Polish people, the native British workers are probably at a disadvantage.

At PCL, a lot of notices and signs are in Polish.

 

[Antman]

Yes, but it's not always like that.

Around here, PCL (Arla diary) and Ocado have each brought in people from abroad, and the agencies have helped organised accommodation - which means many people are sharing rooms.

They're then transported in cars to the warehouses, although in many cases they could probably walk.

Given they're brought over and housed locally, paying low rent given they're in a pretty awful cramped multiple occupancy flat, how does someone 'native' compete? Unless they're local, they'll have to pay to travel which could wipe out their income - especially when working shifts that start or end around 4am. No buses or trains at that time, so you either have your own car or have to use a taxi unless you're close enough to walk or cycle.

Put simply, some jobs are simply not possible for people here and it's no longer possible to just assume that people are too lazy or see those jobs as beneath them. Of course it might be true for some jobs, but not all.

People here might also want to live somewhere that allows them to have their own stuff, or live with other members of their family (partner, children etc) rather than live in a virtually unfurnished flat (bar beds) on their own, because you're not seeking to settle down here.

I am sure that if someone coming over from Poland or Romania wants to get their own place, they'll quickly discover that they need to earn quite a bit more money.

I couldn't have put it better and unscrupulous landlords are cashing in by reenting out sub standard properties knowing that migrants will accept such conditions without complaint
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably. I happened to know that the last person in the job had been sacked, so there was definitely work available. I was the only cellar-boy, so there was no risk of not having any work week-to-week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some. But by no means all.
Let me illustrate with a recent documentary, where a self-confessed anti-immigration Briton was paired with a working immigrant.
The pairing in this case was a young man from Romford, living at home, who said there was no work because immigrants were taking all the jobs, and a French girl, renting a room from a friend, who was a waitress.
He did a shift in the restaurant with her, and was surprised how hard she worked for what she was paid (which was a little above minimum wage). Her (British) boss was interviewed, and he said that in the seven years he'd been in business, he had no more than a couple of applications from Britons, and when he'd employed them, they just didn't work hard enough.
The waitress then helped the unemployed guy look for a job, and took him to an employment agency in Romford, a place he said he never even knew existed! I go to Romford maybe once a month, and I knew exactly where it was! He's obviously never got himself together to actually go and find work.

"Didn't work hard enough" might be another way of saying they didn't accept whatever cr@p was thrown at them

 

[EM2]

I couldn't have put it better and unscrupulous landlords are cashing in by reenting out sub standard properties knowing that migrants will accept such conditions without complaint

Then maybe councils should insist on landlords being licensed (with £20,000 fines for those found not to be, or in breach of their licence), as Newham have done, and as mentioned before, is a borough with a large migrant population.
This goes a long way towards solving the substandard accommodation issue.

 

[gordonthemoron]

my girlfriend has an HMO and she's licensed, don't all landlords have to be licensed?

 

[EM2]

my girlfriend has an HMO and she's licensed, don't all landlords have to be licensed?

In Newham they do, but in other areas it's only landlords of HMOs and some other selected properties. E.g. this is the position in Salford:

The Housing Act 2004 requires local authorities to licence privately rented dwellings in three categories:

Mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupation (HMO) with three or more storeys, five or more people and two or more households
Additional licensing of HMOs excluded from the above
Selective licensing of other private dwellings where the local authority considers it will benefit tenants and communities, in areas of low demand and/or areas with problems of anti-social behaviour

 

[gordonthemoron]

3 storeys, that explains it

 

[jon0844]

my girlfriend has an HMO and she's licensed, don't all landlords have to be licensed?

I don't know how it works council to council, but I know here that a lot of new rules don't apply to people who converted properties before a certain time (kinda like grandfather rights) and with lots of notice of changes, there was a huge rush to convert before that deadline.

Because we also have a university there are a few landlords that own a shocking amount of properties in the area. Properties that will likely be increasingly used for foreign workers in the future as the Uni is building loads of new flats for students so these flats previously for students will need new tenants.

You can imagine their condition after being let to students. I know that might sound somewhat judgemental, but just looking at the mess outside or through the windows is pretty telling.

 

[NSEFAN]

You can imagine their condition after being let to students. I know that might sound somewhat judgemental, but just looking at the mess outside or through the windows is pretty telling.

Indeed. As an undergraduate, my previous landlord's solution to damp was to use anti-mould spray, then paint it over. A landlord before that decided the best way to fix a slightly leaky heating system was just to top it up more often. :roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can imagine their condition after being let to students. I know that might sound somewhat judgemental, but just looking at the mess outside or through the windows is pretty telling.

They're usually in a state long before they're let to students though. Many landlords seem to use the student market as a way of getting rid of their older less maintained properties, because they know that a transient student population normally don't put up too much of a fight.

We saw that in Durham where some landlords were very good- and charged prices to match- but many more tried to deceive students or exploit their naivety at every opportunity.

 

[jon0844]

That'll be why renting to people from Eastern Europe is another logical step, as they won't complain much either.

And I agree that a lot of properties are in a poor state before being rented to students, and maybe that's why students don't care as a result.

 

[Emyr]

A landlord before that decided the best way to fix a slightly leaky heating system was just to top it up more often. :roll:

Should have rented it to a Polish plumber

 

[Wyvern]

I remember the first digs my son had when he went to UNi.

And I'd thought the "Young Ones" were fantasy. hock:

 

[fowler9]

I work in the housing sector and trust me it isn't just students that get put in hovels. People in the forces, social housing and even private rentals will suffer damp problems that the Landlord would rather not do anything more than paint over.

 

[EM2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30370570

Nigel Farage has blamed high levels of immigration and the state of the M4 for missing a meet-the-leader event ahead of UKIP's first Welsh conference.

About 100 supporters each paid £25 for Friday's reception to meet the UKIP leader in Port Talbot on Friday evening but he did not arrive in time.

The event at Margam Park was part of his party's conference which was held on Saturday.

Labour criticised Mr Farage calling his excuse "absurd".

Speaking to the BBC's Sunday Politics Wales, Mr Farage said: "It took me six hours and 15 minutes to get here - it should have taken three-and-a-half to four.

"That is nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a population that is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration and the fact that the M4 is not as navigable as it used to be."

Shadow Welsh secretary Owen Smith said: "Remarks like these are what makes Farage so dangerous.

"It is clearly absurd to suggest heavy traffic on the M4 is caused by immigration, but through the laughter at his silly comments you can hear UKIP's dog-whistle politics of division."

 

[fowler9]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30370570

If I am late in work tomorrow I may try immigration as an excuse. It will be a laugh at least.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Comments like those from Mr. Farage are what turned me off Ukip. They used to be such a brilliant thorn in the side of the main parties and establishment in the EU and in sheer desperation to be mainstream and cool and the new kids in town in domestic British politics they've ****ed it up so much, it's genuinely saddening.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They were, and are, definitely a thorn in the side, but "anti-establishment"? A Surrey stockbroker may be many things, but "anti-establishment" he ain't.

 

[radamfi]

They were, and are, definitely a thorn in the side, but "anti-establishment"? A Surrey stockbroker may be many things, but "anti-establishment" he ain't.

Maybe he's talking about the pre-Farage era, and maybe even the pre-Kilroy era. The founders are not happy with the way the party has gone.