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UK terror threat level raised to 'Severe'

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ExRes

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If the only way to sustain life is to kill, then what kind of life is that? The guy who murdered at Stockwell in 2005 would have applied for that job in full knowledge that he would be paid to kill. Therefore he is not blameless.

Why don't you aim your question at the terrorists and murderers who target innocent men, women and children, if that's the way they want to behave then they deserve nothing less than death themselves

The officer who was involved in the Stockwell incident is paid to uphold the law and protect innocent people, such as you and your family, he and his colleagues are not 'paid to kill', if they make a mistake they should, and hopefully would, be held to account

Why security officers are vilified by the very people they protect, at the daily risk of their own lives, is quite beyond me, just think about society without those protecting organisations
 
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radamfi

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Why don't you aim your question at the terrorists and murderers who target innocent men, women and children, if that's the way they want to behave then they deserve nothing less than death themselves

The officer who was involved in the Stockwell incident is paid to uphold the law and protect innocent people, such as you and your family, he and his colleagues are not 'paid to kill', if they make a mistake they should, and hopefully would, be held to account

Why security officers are vilified by the very people they protect, at the daily risk of their own lives, is quite beyond me, just think about society without those protecting organisations

The whole point is that there shouldn't be terrorists and murderers in the first place. What kind of life is that if you have to kill other people to survive? The honourable thing is to turn the other cheek. If you die as a result then at least you have the moral upper hand. If you fight back then you are just the same as them. On the football pitch, retaliation is punished more severely than the original foul.
 

Antman

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If the only way to sustain life is to kill, then what kind of life is that? The guy who murdered at Stockwell in 2005 would have applied for that job in full knowledge that he would be paid to kill. Therefore he is not blameless.

I find this comment astounding!

Regardless of how much he was to blame for the shooting of an innocent person, well obviously if the job involves carrying a gun then there may be circumstances where you will need to use it. Of course if terrorists and criminals didn't carry guns then the police wouldn't need to either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The whole point is that there shouldn't be terrorists and murderers in the first place. What kind of life is that if you have to kill other people to survive? The honourable thing is to turn the other cheek. If you die as a result then at least you have the moral upper hand. If you fight back then you are just the same as them. On the football pitch, retaliation is punished more severely than the original foul.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you suggesting that terrorists should be allowed to do their worst so that law abiding people gain the moral upper hand?

I can't quite see the connection between terrorism and retaliation on a football pitch.
 

radamfi

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Am I understanding this correctly? Are you suggesting that terrorists should be allowed to do their worst so that law abiding people gain the moral upper hand?

I can't quite see the connection between terrorism and retaliation on a football pitch.

If the world was acceptable enough to allow people to be born into it, then there would be no terrorists as there would be peace and love between all people. If the only way to survive is to kill other people, bringing people into that world is cruel.
 

muz379

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If the only way to sustain life is to kill, then what kind of life is that? The guy who murdered at Stockwell in 2005 would have applied for that job in full knowledge that he would be paid to kill. Therefore he is not blameless.

What murder at stockwell in 2005 is that then ? I dont remember any murder . I remember an innocent man loosing his life because some surveillance officers couldn't do their job properly , and the police/security services where on high alert and extra sensitive following a successful terror attack as well as an attempted one .

That officer never went to work that day intending to have to use that firearm , I dont think any firearms officers actually want to have to discharge their weapon .After an incident such as that they will more than likely suffer some sort of stress afterwards . being that it later come out that they killed an innocent man . The procedural rules that where being followed that day meant that the officer was acting completely on orders and would have been using shoot to kill tactics completely out of the norm from their training and usual tactics . Usually firearms officers have to make a judgement call about if there is an immediate threat to life . On that day s/he would not have had that level of autonomy over their own actions and would have been told by someone in a nice cozy control room that the person did pose a threat to life and was potentially carrying a bomb . They did what they where told and so cannot in any way be held liable for the operation going wrong and an innocent man being killed .

The whole point is that there shouldn't be terrorists and murderers in the first place. What kind of life is that if you have to kill other people to survive? The honourable thing is to turn the other cheek. If you die as a result then at least you have the moral upper hand. If you fight back then you are just the same as them. On the football pitch, retaliation is punished more severely than the original foul.

Not sure if trolling or being serious :roll:

You clearly dont have kids or a family or friends that you are close too and care about a great deal then I take it ?

Hell we should just let pedophiles , rapists , murderers , robbers and terrorist nutters do their worst . Because at least when we are being raped , murdered and robbed blind we can console ourselves with the fact that we have the moral high ground .
 

fowler9

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I think the important point should be how much control do we want to be under before we aren't free? At what point are we being surveilled so much that we are in a worse situation than the one the terrorists beliefs would put us under. We already have employers monitoring what their staff put on the likes of Facebook. If the government are monitoring what we are all doing online constantly it wouldn't take long for the follow up to the third reich to do untold damage to society. It has happened worryingly recently and will happen again. I certainly don't want the lunatic fringe mates of Nigel Farage to have access to everything I have ever done online. And just to repeat, if the laws already in place can't stop a known suspect from killing a soldier in Woolwich what good are further powers going to do?
 

radamfi

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I dont think any firearms officers actually want to have to discharge their weapon.

In that case they shouldn't carry a weapon in the first place.

You clearly dont have kids or a family or friends that you are close too and care about a great deal then I take it ?

Hell we should just let pedophiles , rapists , murderers , robbers and terrorist nutters do their worst . Because at least when we are being raped , murdered and robbed blind we can console ourselves with the fact that we have the moral high ground .

You don't understand. It is my care for people that makes me not want them to experience cruelty. When people have children, they do so on the understanding that the world is bad and therefore bad things can happen to them. On the other hand, if the world is a good enough place to bring children into it, then there would be no place in the world for such bad things. My belief is that I cannot protect innocent people from harm, and therefore it would be wrong to have children.

Many people claim this is a Christian country. Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek." Also there is a commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill." So if you are a Christian, then you don't believe in war or violence.
 
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muz379

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In that case they shouldn't carry a weapon in the first place.
They shouldn't have to carry the weapons , but in many cases in order to protect themselves whilst doing their job , as well as protect the public they need the ultimate form of deterrence and capability to use force at that level . Obviously in modern times there are less lethal means which will sometimes be used rather than a conventional firearm . But they dont always work on everyone all of the time .

Lets take an all too typical example . They have intelligence or evidence to suggest someone is a heroin dealer . The intelligence also suggests this person is a violent ringleader of a gang who is known to have used firearms in the past . Do we A) Send a couple of unarmed officers with low level ballistic vests or B) Send in armed and trained firearms officers with much more comprehensive body Armour and the capability to deal with the threat if the heroin dealer does try and use a firearm to resit arrest .

Or we could just leave him to deal Heroin and be a violent criminal and ruin loads of peoples lives in the process because then we have the moral high ground .

You don't understand. It is my care for people that makes me not want them to experience cruelty. When people have children, they do so on the understanding that the world is bad and therefore bad things can happen to them. On the other hand, if the world is a good enough place to bring children into it, then there would be no place in the world for such bad things. My belief is that I cannot protect innocent people from harm, and therefore it would be wrong to have children.

Many people claim this is a Christian country. Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek." Also there is a commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill." So if you are a Christian, then you don't believe in war or violence.

Bad things do happen , but that doesn't mean that we should sit back and let those bad things happen without taking steps to prevent them from happening . We are not worse or the same as terrorists if we fight back to try and protect ourselves , our freedom and our society

I care very much about my family and those close to me , and would not feel like I had any moral authority if we lived in a state that did not do anything to prevent terrorism or other bad things from happening and then something bad happened to them .

I dont think using those two loose out of context examples of christian morality are quite right . As much as I disagree with some of it , christian morality has no issue with capital punishment and retribution certainly is a repeated theme , particularly within the old testament .
I am not christian in any way , dont subscribe to the view with god as our creator and Jesus the son of god and virgin Mary the mother of Jesus . However one piece from Matthew in the new testament that really always stuck out to me when learning about Christianity was "Whatever measure you deal out to others will be dealt back to you"
 
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Oswyntail

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....I can't quite see the connection between terrorism and retaliation on a football pitch.
This is a fascinating turn to the discussion, and one where I agree - almost - with Radamfi. Let's start here, and think why retaliation is punished more than the original foul. There is something about it that feels primitive, "an eye for an eye", and that flies in the face of civilised values. And, as we are expected to leave the enforcement of discipline on the field to the referee, so we should hand over punishment of terrorists to the law. It is under the laws of this country that they should be tied, and, at present, those laws do not allow killing as a punishment. So it is wrong, utterly, to say "they deserve death", or "string them up", because that flies in the face of our current civilised values.
Another question that leads on from this is whether anti-terrorist police should be armed routinely. There is an argument that suggests you should not give anyone a gun without expecting them to use it, authorised or not, especially in times of stress. But it unreasonable to expect the police to face armed terrorists without guns. This is a question of getting the balance right, and i would hate to get into the sort of "shoot first, question later" approach that we have seen in recent occasions in the US.
However, for the average person in the street, there is nothing we can do to counter terrorism that is not a normal part of being a good citizen; report crimes and suspicions to the police, keep calm in emergencies, and carry on as normal - do not let terrorists terrorise you. In other words, turn the other cheek, as Radamfi says.
Fowler9 is right to point out the subtle balance between control and freedom. To my mind inappropriate control is a much worse danger than terrorism, but that itself can be found in employers monitoring Facebook, "offended" bystanders reporting private conversations, and over-officious guards, as much as in spooks and their bugs.
 

radamfi

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Bad things do happen , but that doesn't mean that we should sit back and let those bad things happen without taking steps to prevent them from happening . We are not worse or the same as terrorists if we fight back to try and protect ourselves , our freedom and our society

I care very much about my family and those close to me , and would not feel like I had any moral authority if we lived in a state that did not do anything to prevent terrorism or other bad things from happening and then something bad happened to them.

But there's only so much you or anyone can do. Just think how powerful the United States is, yet they've suffered terrorism and failed miserably in wars against supposedly weak opposition. At best, making a token gesture of defiance will simply reduce but not eradicate the number of bad things happening. There have been millions of years of human evolution, yet violent acts continually occur across the world at a countless rate.

It is very common to see in the TV news people commenting on a recent tragedy saying, "Oh, how could this have happened?" "We need to stop this from happening ever again." Then the tabloids start talking like humanity has suddenly become evil in the last 24 hours. The truth is that humans are part of nature and nature is brutal. Violence is therefore inevitable.
 

fowler9

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The minute we are even having this discussion the terrorists have won. We are wasting our time and money discussing a number of deaths dwarfed by those killed on the roads. We will never get rid of terrorists because even the discussion we are having now is what fuels them. You could have to sign in and out of your own house and every building you go in and it would still happen.
 

radamfi

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I just watched BBC London News and the first news item was a demonstration against Claridges about their breast feeding policy. Several minutes was spent on that. Then a matter of seconds was spent on a murder of a child in Tower Hamlets. His life appears to be valueless, whereas Lee Rigby (who killed people for a living) gets the whole country grieving for him.
 
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radamfi

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What about all the other murders in the country? Don't they matter?
 

fowler9

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I just watched BBC London News and the first news item was a demonstration against Claridges about their breast feeding policy. Several minutes was spent on that. Then a matter of seconds was spent on a murder of a child in Tower Hamlets. His life appears to be valueless, whereas Lee Rigby (who killed people for a living) gets the whole country grieving for him.

Mate Lee Rigby didn't kill people for a living any more than I do. He was probably a poor choice to execute by these head cases who the security forces were more than aware of without needing extra powers at the risk of repeating myself.
 

455driver

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If the world was acceptable enough to allow people to be born into it, then there would be no terrorists as there would be peace and love between all people. If the only way to survive is to kill other people, bringing people into that world is cruel.

Are you effing serious?
Have you met my neighbours the job dodging bunch of b+stards, with their parties until all hours, throwing their empty cans into our garden, handling stolen goods, videoing our kids in our swimming pool and posting it on face-ache, etc etc!
 

fowler9

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Are you effing serious?
Have you met my neighbours the job dodging bunch of b+stards, with their parties until all hours, throwing their empty cans into our garden, handling stolen goods, videoing our kids in our swimming pool and posting it on face-ache, etc etc!

Mate that is as bizarre and random as what Radamfi said.
 

455driver

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I know but it was the everyone would be full of love and peace crap he was coming out with, maybe he needs to get down town on a Friday or Saturday to see all that 'love' outside the clubs!

What he doesnt seem to realise is that there are some right nasty b+stards in the world and no amount of flower power will change that!
 

muz379

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whereas Lee Rigby (who killed people for a living) gets the whole country grieving for him.

Lee Rigby may well have killed people in his line of work I dont know I dont have his service record in front of me . I wasn't his CO and I have never worked with him let alone been in the military . But even if he did kill people in his line of work he did so under orders within a Legal framework that is agreed by us as a society as well as at an international level between states with a framework of bi-lateral agreements monitored and administered by the UN.

The two scum that hacked his head off in a London street did not do so on a battle field following rules of engagement . They cowardly chose an unarmed , unsuspecting victim and unilaterally decided to end his life because they fanatically believed in a religion that meant they had to do that because they believed that would make them good Muslims .
 

radamfi

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Are you effing serious?
Have you met my neighbours the job dodging bunch of b+stards, with their parties until all hours, throwing their empty cans into our garden, handling stolen goods, videoing our kids in our swimming pool and posting it on face-ache, etc etc!

So you are basically admitting that people are bad. Therefore it is cruel to force people to live in a world full of bad people.

The only ethical choices are:

Assume that the world is 100% good and nothing bad will ever happen.

or

Assume that the world is evil and don't force people to live in it.

Most people seem to go down the middle way which is illogical. They admit that the world is bad, and always will be bad, but continually complain when things go wrong. They think using police forces and armies will solve things, but it only puts a tiny sticking plaster on the problem. Violence continues regardless. It seems crazy and cruel to put people on the earth and then kill them brutally in a war or by a criminal on a street corner.
 
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fowler9

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So you are basically admitting that people are bad. Therefore it is cruel to force people to live in a world full of bad people.

The only ethical choices are:

Assume that the world is 100% good and nothing bad will ever happen.

or

Assume that the world is evil and don't force people to live in it.

Most people seem to go down the middle way which is illogical. They admit that the world is bad, and always will be bad, but continually complain when things go wrong. They think using police forces and armies will solve things, but it only puts a tiny sticking plaster on the problem. Violence continues regardless. It seems crazy and cruel to put people on the earth and then kill them brutally in a war or by a criminal on a street corner.

Most people are somewhere in between 100% good or 100% evil to use your words. There is nothing illogical about that. It would be illogical to think everyone is one or the other. Your judgement would be based on you own personal opinions.I doubt many people think they are 100% evil and I love it.
 

radamfi

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Most people are somewhere in between 100% good or 100% evil to use your words. There is nothing illogical about that. It would be illogical to think everyone is one or the other. Your judgement would be based on you own personal opinions.I doubt many people think they are 100% evil and I love it.

When I say that the the world is evil, I mean that there is evil in the world, not that everything or everyone is 100% evil. Even if the world is only 1% evil, that is enough to cause an intolerable amount of harm.
 

fowler9

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When I say that the the world is evil, I mean that there is evil in the world, not that everything or everyone is 100% evil. Even if the world is only 1% evil, that is enough to cause an intolerable amount of harm.

Fair enough mate but I still don't think that makes a middle way illogical. :)
 

fowler9

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If medical science come across a new virus, attempts are made to make something that will totally eradicate this. Perhaps a comparison may be drawn to the matter at hand.

Oh god I hope not. Medical science being able to eradicate people having different points of view. That would be the only way to eradicate terrorism. Have you seen the film Equilibrium?
 

Antman

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I know but it was the everyone would be full of love and peace crap he was coming out with, maybe he needs to get down town on a Friday or Saturday to see all that 'love' outside the clubs!

What he doesnt seem to realise is that there are some right nasty b+stards in the world and no amount of flower power will change that!

I couldn't have put it better
 
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