Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[yorksrob]

That is good news regarding the Bude branch, I hate to say it,but sadly I really do think the North Cornwall is lost forever. I would really love to be proved wrong, but apart from Launceston, Wadebridge and if we could include Padstow, the original stations are just too far from the settlements they were intended to serve.

I've always felt that Wadebridge and Padstow would be better served by reopening from Bodmin Parkway rather than the Launceston direction.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I've always felt that Wadebridge and Padstow would be better served by reopening from Bodmin Parkway rather than the Launceston direction.

Hopefully the Bodmin & Wenford will eventually get back to Wadebridge, but it would be magnificent if they could push all the way back to Padstow. This is such a picturesque resort, but is sadly blighted by one thing in particular, too many cars! Padstow would benefit greatly by getting its trains back. Surely though, it would be a struggle getting the line back through Wadebridge these days? Another case of shortsightedness back in the 1980s/90s wouldn't you say?

 

[yorksrob]

Another case of shortsightedness back in the 1980s/90s wouldn't you say?

Well yes. Considering St Ives, Looe and Newquay made it, I really can't see why this one fell by the wayside. Particularly as the route really isn't suited to bus transport.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Well yes. Considering St Ives, Looe and Newquay made it, I really can't see why this one fell by the wayside. Particularly as the route really isn't suited to bus transport.

It's particularly sad when you think that the line as far as Wadebridge remained open for freight traffic until as late as 1978, just over 11years after the last passenger services ran,and even though the track was lifted, the route remained clear through to Padstow until the late 80s. Wish Rick Stein had opened up in Padstow sooner, could have made all the difference!

 

[yorksrob]

It's particularly sad when you think that the line as far as Wadebridge remained open for freight traffic until as late as 1978, just over 11years after the last passenger services ran,and even though the track was lifted, the route remained clear through to Padstow until the late 80s. Wish Rick Stein had opened up in Padstow sooner, could have made all the difference!

Indeed. Could have got a rather nice bag of chips when waiting for the train as well

 

[Ash Bridge]

Indeed. Could have got a rather nice bag of chips when waiting for the train as well

Ah yes, I feel a new trivia thread starter coming on. How many stations do you know of, with fish n chip shops on the platform?

 

[yorksrob]

Ah yes, I feel a new trivia thread starter coming on. How many stations do you know of, with fish n chip shops on the platform?

Or in the case of Padstow, at the platform

 

[Ash Bridge]

Or in the case of Padstow, at the platform

Err yes. I do stand corrected there!
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And briefly just to get us back on track. The Government e-petition, campaigning for the Oke-Tavi reopening that started back in February this year, has suddenly started to gain some momentum. A couple of weeks ago it stood at 671 signatures, today it has reached 720. Hopefully it will be in 4 figures by the start of the new year.

 

[yorksrob]

Err yes. I do stand corrected there!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And briefly just to get us back on track. The Government e-petition, campaigning for the Oke-Tavi reopening that started back in February this year, has suddenly started to gain some momentum. A couple of weeks ago it stood at 671 signatures, today it has reached 720. Hopefully it will be in 4 figures by the start of the new year.

That's good news. Hopefully the news will give it a bit of a boost.

 

[Aictos]

Why are the Plymouth MPs moaning? I mean it was bad enough with the storms at Dawlish cutting off Devon and Cornwall so you would have thought they be supportive of any route being able to take diverted services.

It's not like Plymouth will lose out and have their rail services axed, they're just making a scene because like that Portsmouth MP they're idiots.

 

[Barclay]

The Plymouth MPs (and the City Council) think that if a second line to Plymouth is required, it should be a high-speed route that would significantly improve journey times to London.

You can see their point, there's no shame in having a vision.

Unfortunately, this position appears to be having the effect of downplaying support for an Okehampton to Tavistock line. It seems a bit like someone offering you a free Ford Mondeo but you turning it down because you want a Rolls Royce, and ending up with nothing.

 

[The Ham]

The Plymouth MPs (and the City Council) think that if a second line to Plymouth is required, it should be a high-speed route that would significantly improve journey times to London.

You can see their point, there's no shame in having a vision.

Unfortunately, this position appears to be having the effect of downplaying support for an Okehampton to Tavistock line. It seems a bit like someone offering you a free Ford Mondeo but you turning it down because you want a Rolls Royce, and ending up with nothing.

The thing is, by reopening the line through Okehampton they will see passenger numbers go up at Plymouth, which will then put them in a better position to argue that they need a faster service.

In the above analogy it would be accepting the free Mondeo (on top of the existing car) with the view that with the two cars that the existing car is likely to be upgraded at a future date due to the extra usage because of having both cars.

 

[34104]

Uniquely for that line the station was flattened and I think the platforms are gone. It was also a good mile or more from the village. I would put a new station in the village where the cyclepath ends

As for reopening the ex GWR branch towards Launceston, go and wash your mouth out wit soap and water

Actually from online maps it seems more obliterated than the Southern route with an industrial building a lot of incorporation into Fields and the A30 across it near Launceston.

The Bude branch seems to be in the process of being converted into a long distance path/cycleway called the Ruby Way and the North Cornwall line is mostly intact and still fenced off from Halwill to Launceston.

A bit about the Ruby way below. Devon are certainly putting a lot of effort into keeping the trackbed of the Withered Arm intact and maintained.

http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/...ink-Ruby-Way/story-15040732-detail/story.html

http://www.atlantictrail.co.uk/a-t-developments.htm

The platforms at Lydford are actually still there-overgrown and crumbling a bit but still there, albeit as private property and fenced off.

Some of the GWR branch is indeed occupied by other forms of industry and leisure-Ambrosia have totally built over the site of Lifton station, the bridge over the river at Polson is gone and the embankment beyond submerged into Launceston rugby club and the industrial estate at Newport has meant the downfall of both SR and GWR stations. With a bit of investment and imagination back in the 1960's a possible idea would have been to have developed the GWR Launceston branch as far as Lydford to provide a faster connection with the main line and closed Launceston to Halwill [heresy though that is coming from a dyed in the wool Southern man].Unfortunately both of those resources were in very short supply in that era and instead Launceston is left without a railway, except for the wonderful Launceston Steam Railway of course. Sad.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The platforms at Lydford are actually still there-overgrown and crumbling a bit but still there, albeit as private property and fenced off.

Some of the GWR branch is indeed occupied by other forms of industry and leisure-Ambrosia have totally built over the site of Lifton station, the bridge over the river at Polson is gone and the embankment beyond submerged into Launceston rugby club and the industrial estate at Newport has meant the downfall of both SR and GWR stations. With a bit of investment and imagination back in the 1960's a possible idea would have been to have developed the GWR Launceston branch as far as Lydford to provide a faster connection with the main line and closed Launceston to Halwill [heresy though that is coming from a dyed in the wool Southern man].Unfortunately both of those resources were in very short supply in that era and instead Launceston is left without a railway, except for the wonderful Launceston Steam Railway of course. Sad.

Yes, when I looked at the satellite image yesterday I thought I could make out a section of platform edge. Also notice what was the Manor Inn at Lydford Station is no more, now a private residence? suppose a lot of its trade died when the station closed. On a holiday back in 1984 did a bit of a Withered Arm pilgrimage and had lunch at the aforementioned establishment, it was a bit rundown by then but the food we had was delicious, sat outside on a glorious Devon day at tables with seats made from former concrete railway sleepers, possibly from the lifted former GWR branch? I'll bet that 21C101 would have refused to sit there

 

[Barclay]

The thing is, by reopening the line through Okehampton they will see passenger numbers go up at Plymouth, which will then put them in a better position to argue that they need a faster service.

In the above analogy it would be accepting the free Mondeo (on top of the existing car) with the view that with the two cars that the existing car is likely to be upgraded at a future date due to the extra usage because of having both cars.

I think if the line to Okehampton opened, there would be little chance of a highspeed route in the future.

The politicians probably are better placed than us casual observers to know whether there is any possibility of a highspeed line in the near future. If there isn't, they should put their weight behind the Okehampton route. If there is a possibility of a highspeed link, I can see why that option would be preferable. However, I would hate to see the politicians putting all their eggs in one basket and the status quo remaining.

 

[MarkyT]

The Plymouth MPs (and the City Council) think that if a second line to Plymouth is required, it should be a high-speed route that would significantly improve journey times to London.

You can see their point, there's no shame in having a vision.

Unfortunately, this position appears to be having the effect of downplaying support for an Okehampton to Tavistock line. It seems a bit like someone offering you a free Ford Mondeo but you turning it down because you want a Rolls Royce, and ending up with nothing.

I think you speak great wisdom. Following the longest ever closure of the route through Dawlish it seemed for a brief moment that anything and everything was on the table, regardless of cost, and it's not surprising that aspirations have been stretched to breaking point. Personally I remain fully committed to a high speed cutoff in stages to Newton Abbot and then further to Plymouth, but I recognise the time is not right now and, if in the meantime, we can get a second route to Plymouth through Okehampton quickly and relatively cheaply that is a very good result both for the areas it passes through, and for the general resilience of the network and the region. Whilst rail freight plays a very small part in the traffic mix today, the security of a second route could help greatly in it's future prospects, and although passengers can be much more easily transshipped to buses past such a rare extended emergency closure with surprising little impact on overall journey times, the inconvenience could be avoided for a large proportion with such an alternative route available.

I think outline planning and safeguarding for future cut-off routes should commence soon however even if construction may not occur for another 20 years. Much expenditure and political strife could be avoided if new housing in particular is not built over or too close to potential routes.
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I think if the line to Okehampton opened, there would be little chance of a highspeed route in the future.

Not really. The Okehampton route would stand on its own as a new transport artery during normal operations, serving settlements en route. Assuming, as seems reasonable, services were linked through Exeter Central to destinations on the LSWR line perhaps as far as Waterloo, that could also provide new direct links from Plymouth that could be attractive, including to Exeter's growing airport via the new Cranbrook station, especially important since Plymouth lost it's own airport.

Further improvements to the GWR route would not be jeopardised in the longer term by the existence of the Okehampton line if those changes were justified for longer distance growth or to accomodate the traffic mix constraints of the the existing double track route (stopping /non-stopping service mix see previous posts ad infinitum).

I would also like to think that the two routes could remain in the hands of different operators so that a degree of price competition can exist to help incentivise use of the slightly slower route via Okehampton (with the likely stopping pattern), keep the GW operator honest and help to grow the overall market.

 

[34104]

Yes, when I looked at the satellite image yesterday I thought I could make out a section of platform edge. Also notice what was the Manor Inn at Lydford Station is no more, now a private residence? suppose a lot of its trade died when the station closed. On a holiday back in 1984 did a bit of a Withered Arm pilgrimage and had lunch at the aforementioned establishment, it was a bit rundown by then but the food we had was delicious, sat outside on a glorious Devon day at tables with seats made from former concrete railway sleepers, possibly from the lifted former GWR branch? I'll bet that 21C101 would have refused to sit there

The Manor Inn survived for many years after 1984 but it's name was changed to The Mucky Duck-it sadly closed, probably about 10 years ago, and is indeed a private residence now. As has been stated already, there wouldn't be much point in reopening Lydford station at it's former site-it was essentially a junction station, literally miles away from Lydford village-maybe a new one could be built somewhere near the bridge currently used as an access point for the Granite Way at the North end of Lydford.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think you speak great wisdom. Following the longest ever closure of the route through Dawlish it seemed for a brief moment that anything and everything was on the table, regardless of cost, and it's not surprising that aspirations have been stretched to breaking point. Personally I remain fully committed to a high speed cutoff in stages to Newton Abbot and then further to Plymouth, but I recognise the time is not right now and, if in the meantime, we can get a second route to Plymouth through Okehampton quickly and relatively cheaply that is a very good result both for the areas it passes through, and for the general resilience of the network and the region. Whilst rail freight plays a very small part in the traffic mix today, the security of a second route could help greatly in it's future prospects, and although passengers can be much more easily transshipped to buses past such a rare extended emergency closure with surprising little impact on overall journey times, the inconvenience could be avoided for a large proportion with such an alternative route available.

I think outline planning and safeguarding for future cut-off routes should commence soon however even if construction may not occur for another 20 years. Much expenditure and political strife could be avoided if new housing in particular is not built over or too close to potential routes.
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Not really. The Okehampton route would stand on its own as a new transport artery during normal operations, serving settlements en route. Assuming, as seems reasonable, services were linked through Exeter Central to destinations on the LSWR line perhaps as far as Waterloo, that could also provide new direct links from Plymouth that could be attractive, including to Exeter's growing airport via the new Cranbrook station, especially important since Plymouth lost it's own airport.

Further improvements to the GWR route would not be jeopardised in the longer term by the existence of the Okehampton line if those changes were justified for longer distance growth or to accomodate the traffic mix constraints of the the existing double track route (stopping /non-stopping service mix see previous posts ad infinitum).

I would also like to think that the two routes could remain in the hands of different operators so that a degree of price competition can exist to help incentivise use of the slightly slower route via Okehampton (with the likely stopping pattern), keep the GW operator honest and help to grow the overall market.

From my humble point of view ,that's a perfect sum up of the situation, very well said!
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The Manor Inn survived for many years after 1984 but it's name was changed to The Mucky Duck-it sadly closed, probably about 10 years ago, and is indeed a private residence now. As has been stated already, there wouldn't be much point in reopening Lydford station at it's former site-it was essentially a junction station, literally miles away from Lydford village-maybe a new one could be built somewhere near the bridge currently used as an access point for the Granite Way at the North end of Lydford.

Many thanks for that, and the previous information.

 

[yorksrob]

The Plymouth MPs (and the City Council) think that if a second line to Plymouth is required, it should be a high-speed route that would significantly improve journey times to London.

You can see their point, there's no shame in having a vision.

Unfortunately, this position appears to be having the effect of downplaying support for an Okehampton to Tavistock line. It seems a bit like someone offering you a free Ford Mondeo but you turning it down because you want a Rolls Royce, and ending up with nothing.

What I disagree with is the politicians belief that the Okehampton route is a Ford Mondeo. Yes, they want their ferrari (The Dawlish cut off) but what they are being offered is a Bentley (The Okehampton route) which offers a whole lot of other benefits, but because they're obsessed with speed, they only want the ferrari and are hell bent on ruining the chance to get the Bentley.

What's more, because the Bentley has had a previous owner, they can actually get it for the price of a Ford Mondeo.

 

[Busaholic]

Or in the case of Padstow, at the platform

The only one incorporating a lobster tank!?:

 

[yorksrob]

The only one incorporating a lobster tank!?:

Indeed. Had a look at the tiny little lobsters in the hatchery opposite, last time I was there.

 

[21C101]

Yes, when I looked at the satellite image yesterday I thought I could make out a section of platform edge. Also notice what was the Manor Inn at Lydford Station is no more, now a private residence? suppose a lot of its trade died when the station closed. On a holiday back in 1984 did a bit of a Withered Arm pilgrimage and had lunch at the aforementioned establishment, it was a bit rundown by then but the food we had was delicious, sat outside on a glorious Devon day at tables with seats made from former concrete railway sleepers, possibly from the lifted former GWR branch? I'll bet that 21C101 would have refused to sit there

I did one refuse to sit on a seat in a South African museum that had Slegs Blankes on it.....Funnily enough though it was seeing the remains of the ex GWR Chard Branch at Donyatt Halt as a kid was one of the things that first sparked my interest in railways. The Halt has now been completly restored as part of the cyclepath.

Its quite amazing how much of the withered arm has been bought by the county councils and reopened as Cycletracks.

• OPEN Bodmin North - Padstow
• OPEN Most of the Ilfracombe branch with plans to reopen the gap between Morthoe and Braunton. (http://www.devon.gov.uk/plandoc_7_4310.pdf) (http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=HTM/12/41.CMR&rn=12/WD747&dg=Public)
• OPEN Barnstaple to Meeth
• UNDER CONSTRUCTION Ruby Way from Meeth to Halwill (http://www.devon.gov.uk/plandoc_24_3845.pdf)
• UNDER CONSTRUCTION Bude - Halwill, the Ruby Way (http://www.devon.gov.uk/plandoc_24_3845.pdf)
• UNDER CONSTRUCTION Hallwill to Meldon (the Pegasus Way) (http://www.devon.gov.uk/laf-paper5-thorndoncross.pdf) (http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=PTE/13/104.CMR&rn=13/WD1215&dg=Public)
• OPEN Some of the North Cornwall west of Launceston to Egloskerry
• OPEN Okehampton - Lydford
• PROPOSED Lydford - Tavistock (http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/07/239/HQ.CMR&rn=10/WD1094&dg=Public)
• UNDER CONSTRUCTION Tavistock - Bere Alston (beside the reopened line) (http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=PTE/13/104.CMR&rn=13/WD1215&dg=Public)
• PROPOSED Sidmouth Branch - a little open, rest planned. (http://www.sustrans.org.uk/press-releases/study-assesses-feasibility-new-route-sidmouth-feniton)
• OPEN Chard LSWR to Chard Joint (with line to chard junction planned) (http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/council/board3b\2008 November 26 Item 7 Stop Line Way Appendix A.pdf)
• OPEN Exmouth - Budleigh Salterton
• OPEN Most of Seaton Branch as Trams.
• OPEN Most of Turnchapel branch including next year Laira Bridge.

The Lyme Regis Branch and that is also proposed to become a cycleroute along with Tipton to Budleigh http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/07/239/HQ.CMR&rn=10/WD1094&dg=Public

Even better, the county councils own the trackbed and maintain the structures, not Sustrans!

The only one with no plans to reopen seems to be the North Cornwall line from Halwill to Wadebridge (other than a short stretch west of Launceston) along with the Callington branch beyond Gunnislake

 

[yorksrob]

Not really. The Okehampton route would stand on its own as a new transport artery during normal operations, serving settlements en route. Assuming, as seems reasonable, services were linked through Exeter Central to destinations on the LSWR line perhaps as far as Waterloo, that could also provide new direct links from Plymouth that could be attractive, including to Exeter's growing airport via the new Cranbrook station, especially important since Plymouth lost it's own airport.

Further improvements to the GWR route would not be jeopardised in the longer term by the existence of the Okehampton line if those changes were justified for longer distance growth or to accomodate the traffic mix constraints of the the existing double track route (stopping /non-stopping service mix see previous posts ad infinitum).

I would also like to think that the two routes could remain in the hands of different operators so that a degree of price competition can exist to help incentivise use of the slightly slower route via Okehampton (with the likely stopping pattern), keep the GW operator honest and help to grow the overall market.

I agree with this. Given how busy the train can get on the main line, it wouldn't surprise me if a through service from Waterloo via Tavistock began to act as a relief to the mainline, as the WOE does now.

With regards to safeguarding possible future avoiding line routes, I think that this would be a good idea. However, I believe there is currently some legislation that means that Councils can only safeguard routes that are in their plans to build, which has scuppered a few reopening proposals recently. This needs to be changed.

 

[455driver]

Ah yes, I feel a new trivia thread starter coming on. How many stations do you know of, with fish n chip shops on the platform?

What about the trailer outside Cobham &SD that used to bring the F&C to the drivers cab if they phoned the order ahead?

 

[Ash Bridge]

What about the trailer outside Cobham &SD that used to bring the F&C to the drivers cab if they phoned the order ahead?

Was it well patronised?

 

[455driver]

I can only speak for myself but when on lates I was a regular customer!
The look on passengers faces as a few shiny coins was passed through the cab window to be swapped for the white paper bundle was quite amusing.
Oh before the 'usual suspects' start on about me eating while driving, the bundle wasnt opened until I reached the terminus, normally Guildford but occasionally Waterloo which extra wrapping was asked for ) and took my PNB!

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can only speak for myself but when on lates I was a regular customer!
The look on passengers faces as a few shiny coins was passed through the cab window to be swapped for the white paper bundle was quite amusing.
Oh before the 'usual suspects' start on about me eating while driving, the bundle wasnt opened until I reached the terminus, normally Guildford but occasionally Waterloo which extra wrapping was asked for ) and took my PNB!

Ha ha I like it! Look forward to hearing more railway tales from the sunny Southwest in the future

 

[47802]

What I disagree with is the politicians belief that the Okehampton route is a Ford Mondeo. Yes, they want their ferrari (The Dawlish cut off) but what they are being offered is a Bentley (The Okehampton route) which offers a whole lot of other benefits, but because they're obsessed with speed, they only want the ferrari and are hell bent on ruining the chance to get the Bentley.

What's more, because the Bentley has had a previous owner, they can actually get it for the price of a Ford Mondeo.

In my view those who think that rebuilding the Okehampton will rule out a new fast route in future are correct, and I wouldn't liken the Okehampton route to a Mondeo more like a Lada in my view.

 

[yorksrob]

As has been pointed out, the Okehampton route won't fundamentally alter the speed problem between Exeter and Dawlish, so there will still be that imperative once it is built. What it will do is significantly alleviate the isolation of the network, so that when it comes to improving speed on that section, it might involve bypassing Dawlish, it might not. They will look at the best way of improving speed.
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Mondeo more like a Lada in my view.

My interest in motor transport isn't sufficient to allow me to comment.

 

[Busaholic]

In my view those who think that rebuilding the Okehampton will rule out a new fast route in future are correct, and I wouldn't liken the Okehampton route to a Mondeo more like a Lada in my view.

The point about the Lada with its cheap spec was it didn't keep breaking down, unlike Voyagers in contact with a bit of salt water.