Wessex Route Study - draft out for consultation

[21C101]

So what? Do any (or many) trains start from Woking or do they all come in full from the PDL, SWML, Alton line, and Soton?
In addition, the further you get from London, the less commuters there are. If not then Soton would need four times the numbber of trains , that's nearly 80 per hour!

Up to four an hour start from Woking (the ones that call at stations to Surbiton) and these can't go to the bigger traffic centre (Guildford) as sending them there (or more accurately sending them back on the Up) would take up too much capacity at the junction south of Woking leaving Guildford with no weekday dire ct trains to Weybridge, Walton, Surbiton etc.

On Sundays, and other odd times, when there are less trains running, they go to Guildford.
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How many people want to go from Guildford to Chertsey during the week?
Woking do Chertseys because they are about the only ones that sign the curve.

Exactly why did the LSWR grade separate the little used south curve to Chertsey (but not the north one). Did a lot of freight go that way in times past?

 

[infobleep]

How many people want to go from Guildford to Chertsey during the week?
Woking do Chertseys because they are about the only ones that sign the curve.

You wont be happy until there is a 5 minute service from every station to every other station will you!
All your posts these days are either moans about delays or moans about why there isnt a direct train from every station!

This is a thread about the future so I am discussing improvements. It may come across as moaning but in the bigger picture, I'd far rather travel on South West Trains than London Midland or Southern. So yes I focus on where I'd like to see changes but that doesn't mean I think South West Trains are not doing the best they can.

I don't travel to Chertsey but I know people who live in Addlestone and Chertsey and it is annoying for then when they need to get to places such as Guildford. As one train arrives into Weybridge they can sometimes see the Chertsey train depart. There are good reasons why it currently has to be like this but in the future it would be nice if it were possible to connect better.

It's actually quicker to drive from Chertsey to Guildford than take the train. Bear in mind it's quicker to get the train from Guildford to Woking than to drive and Chertsey and Addlestone are further away than Woking.

Surely if they are looking to introduce flyovers, these sorts of routes might benefit as they could introduce better connections. I stop short at suggesting direct trains as that would dyne Weybridge a service to Waterloo via Chertsey. Admittedly they don't get that on Sundays. In my mind the whole point of the flyovers is to improve things.

They go on about time savings on train services so I've highlighted some earlier in this thread that might benefit from flyovers.

I may come across as moaning but I'm only wanting to see improvements. I read about improvements on other lines and more train services, so given its claimed South West Trains is one of the busiest, surely that would mean they'd want to make improvement here to encompass the popularity of the service. It looks like that will happen in due course.

I don't even travel to Clapham Junction any more during peak rush hour but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want fast services to stop there so other people can make use of the excellent connections currently denied to them, unless they switch to slower services at Woking & Surbiton or Guildford. Yes I know why it has to be like that for now but given South West Trains is one of the busiest in Europe, I'd like to see it change. I get the strong impression Network Rail agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Up to four an hour start from Woking (the ones that call at stations to Surbiton) and these can't go to the bigger traffic centre (Guildford) as sending them there (or more accurately sending them back on the Up) would take up too much capacity at the junction south of Woking leaving Guildford with no weekday dire ct trains to Weybridge, Walton, Surbiton etc.

On Sundays, and other odd times, when there are less trains running, they go to Guildford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Exactly why did the LSWR grade separate the little used south curve to Chertsey (but not the north one). Did a lot of freight go that way in times past?

One upon a time their was direct services from Woking to Windsor. I doubt many people would want to make such a journey now, compared to those wishing to reach Waterloo. I imagine that's why such services went long ago.

 

[21C101]

This is a thread about the future so I am discussing improvements. It may come across as moaning but in the bigger picture, I'd far rather travel on South West Trains than London Midland or Southern. So yes I focus on where I'd like to see changes but that doesn't mean I think South West Trains are not doing the best they can.

I don't travel to Chertsey but I know people who live in Addlestone and Chertsey and it is annoying for then when they need to get to places such as Guildford. As one train arrives into Weybridge they can sometimes see the Chertsey train depart. There are good reasons why it currently has to be like this but in the future it would be nice if it were possible to connect better.

It's actually quicker to drive from Chertsey to Guildford than take the train. Bear in mind it's quicker to get the train from Guildford to Woking than to drive and Chertsey and Addlestone are further away than Woking.

Surely if they are looking to introduce flyovers, these sorts of routes might benefit as they could introduce better connections. I stop short at suggesting direct trains as that would dyne Weybridge a service to Waterloo via Chertsey. Admittedly they don't get that on Sundays. In my mind the whole point of the flyovers is to improve things.

They go on about time savings on train services so I've highlighted some earlier in this thread that might benefit from flyovers.

I may come across as moaning but I'm only wanting to see improvements. I read about improvements on other lines and more train services, so given its claimed South West Trains is one of the busiest, surely that would mean they'd want to make improvement here to encompass the popularity of the service. It looks like that will happen in due course.

I don't even travel to Clapham Junction any more during peak rush hour but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want fast services to stop there so other people can make use of the excellent connections currently denied to them, unless they switch to slower services at Woking & Surbiton or Guildford. Yes I know why it has to be like that for now but given South West Trains is one of the busiest in Europe, I'd like to see it change. I get the strong impression Network Rail agree.

If a Flyover is built at Woking, a half hourly Waterloo to Godalming via Staines, Chertsey, Woking and Guildford would be a logical step

If the Shepperton Branch had been finished a Waterloo to Guildford via Kingston, Chertsey and Woking would have been very useful.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or it demonstrates that half the Sunday trains stable at Guildford and a lot of them are crewed by either Guildford or Waterloo staff, Woking crews mainly work the Chertsey services on a Sunday.

Seriously though, why should current train crew depot responsibilities have any bearing on proposed service patterns in 2043, in nearly 30 years time?

By then you'll be able to start work anywhere using your company jetpack or hoverboard ...

 

[30909]

Up to four an hour start from Woking (the ones that call at stations to Surbiton) and these can't go to the bigger traffic centre (Guildford) as sending them there (or more accurately sending them back on the Up) would take up too much capacity at the junction south of Woking leaving Guildford with no weekday dire ct trains to Weybridge, Walton, Surbiton etc.

On Sundays, and other odd times, when there are less trains running, they go to Guildford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Exactly why did the LSWR grade separate the little used south curve to Chertsey (but not the north one). Did a lot of freight go that way in times past?

Oh yes lots of freight to-from Feltham Yard, most of the "Wessex Route" long distance mixed freight originated or was destined for Feltham. The exceptions being interregional freight via Basingstoke-Reading or Salisbury-Westbury and a few bits and bobs via the S&D

 

[21C101]

Oh yes lots of freight to-from Feltham Yard, most of the "Wessex Route" long distance mixed freight originated or was destined for Feltham. The exceptions being interregional freight via Basingstoke-Reading or Salisbury-Westbury and a few bits and bobs via the S&D

Many thanks. Presumably if it was going to Nine Elms Goods it also went via Feltham as presumably access to the yard was from the Windsor lines?

 

[30909]

Yes mostly, though some fitted freights went main line to Wimbledon then via Putney East and Milk Trains for Vauxhall via the main line to Clapham Junction then forward to Vauxhall. See fourth paragraph here:
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMMPQ_Vauxhall_Station_South_Lambeth_Place_London_UK

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Why not terminate the District line at Putney Bridge, reinstate the bridge over the Windsor lines and extend LOROL from Willesden/Stratford & Clapham to Wimbledon by converting it to proper heavy rail.

Consider it a forerunner of Crossrail 2. As the amount of times that LU goes pop due to operational issues is incredible.

 

[30909]

Its' an idea if there is capacity from Clapham Junction to Point Pleasant. Why not let the District cross the river and have cross platform interchange at East Putney?

 

[21C101]

Its' an idea if there is capacity from Clapham Junction to Point Pleasant. Why not let the District cross the river and have cross platform interchange at East Putney?

Why not run the Overground to Wimbledon as well as, not instead of the District Line if you were going to do that.

that said you would need a flyover at Clapham Junction as well as reinstaing the flyover bridge at Point Pleasant so I don't think its an option.

 

[mr_jrt]

that said you would need a flyover at Clapham Junction as well as reinstaing the flyover bridge at Point Pleasant so I don't think its an option.

It's much more expensive, but I think that aside from Wandsworth Town's platforms, there's room for an additional pair of lines, so with a new double track flyover at Point Pleasant and a shuffle, you wouldn't need one at Clapham. Wandsworth Town would need some very careful thought though...not sure how you'd get the lines through there. Maybe reconfiguring so you don't need platforms on the fast lines? Dunno.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why not run the Overground to Wimbledon as well as, not instead of the District Line if you were going to do that.

that said you would need a flyover at Clapham Junction as well as reinstaing the flyover bridge at Point Pleasant so I don't think its an option.

I somewhat agree. On the plus side it might relieve some congestion inwards from Putney, but it would take a lot of work. And realistically, if you did it, someone at Wimbledon who wants to get to the Overground is still likely to find it quicker to go via Earlsfield and change at Clapham Junction.

Realistically you'd have to continue running the District line to Wimbledon, partly because the Overground can't match the capacity (both frequency and train lengths) of the District line, and I think partly also because there wouldn't be the facilities to turn back so many trains at Putney Bridge East Putney. That would bring in lots of conflicting moves at Putney Bridge East Putney where the two lines join.

A nice idea though.

(And getting off-topic for the Wessex Route Study. Again!)

(Edited for typo: Putney Bridge -> East Putney)

 

[21C101]

I somewhat agree. On the plus side it might relieve some congestion inwards from Putney, but it would take a lot of work. And realistically, if you did it, someone at Wimbledon who wants to get to the Overground is still likely to find it quicker to go via Earlsfield and change at Clapham Junction.

Realistically you'd have to continue running the District line to Wimbledon, partly because the Overground can't match the capacity (both frequency and train lengths) of the District line, and I think partly also because there wouldn't be the facilities to turn back so many trains at Putney Bridge. That would bring in lots of conflicting moves at Putney Bridge where the two lines join.

A nice idea though.

(And getting off-topic for the Wessex Route Study. Again!)

Still a bit off topic but would Wimbledon to Waterloo via East Putney services be well used if reinstated. Didn't they get the chop as a WW2 measure on what was previously a well used route (well enough to be electrified and grade separated at point pleasant). The abutments are still there at Point Pleasant, just the bridge missing?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Still a bit off topic but would Wimbledon to Waterloo via East Putney services be well used if reinstated. Didn't they get the chop as a WW2 measure on what was previously a well used route (well enough to be electrified and grade separated at point pleasant). The abutments are still there at Point Pleasant, just the bridge missing?

It's a nice idea, but I have to admit, I can't see even that being massively well used. It'd relieve some congestion from Wandsworth Town inwards, and probably a bit at Putney, if some people swap to East Putney to get to Waterloo. But other than that, there aren't really many journeys for which it'd make sense to use such a service over existing services. You'd basically be looking at Wandsworth Town to Wimbledon or Southfields to Clapham Junction/Waterloo, and I can't see either of those giving enough passengers to justify a very frequent service. And if the service is much less frequent than the services on the neighbouring lines, that'll be a bit of a disincentive to people using it.

What would probably help many more people is a more frequent service to Richmond. I haven't used that line that often, but when I have I've got the strong impression of very overcrowded trains and not nearly enough trains for the demand. Unfortunately, as far as I could tell on a quick skim read, the Wessex Route Study draft is basically not proposing any solutions because of the problem of all the level crossings along the route. I'm guessing the lack of grade separation at Barnes is quite an issue too. They've proposed a workaround - running some additional trains fast via Hounslow, which is imaginative, but doesn't seem to me to address the real problem.

If instead of Waterloo-East Putney-Wimbledon trains, you significantly increased the frequency to Richmond. Maybe something like - say - ran a Waterloo-Richmond shuttle every 10 minutes, and had all the existing trains through Richmond run limited stop between Richmond and Waterloo, I would imagine that would be very well used. But to do that, you'd have to throw very serious money at the line to sort out the level crossings and the line capacity - which is presumably why the Wessex Route Study doesn't propose anything of the sort

 

[infobleep]

It's a nice idea, but I have to admit, I can't see even that being massively well used. It'd relieve some congestion from Wandsworth Town inwards, and probably a bit at Putney, if some people swap to East Putney to get to Waterloo. But other than that, there aren't really many journeys for which it'd make sense to use such a service over existing services. You'd basically be looking at Wandsworth Town to Wimbledon or Southfields to Clapham Junction/Waterloo, and I can't see either of those giving enough passengers to justify a very frequent service. And if the service is much less frequent than the services on the neighbouring lines, that'll be a bit of a disincentive to people using it.

What would probably help many more people is a more frequent service to Richmond. I haven't used that line that often, but when I have I've got the strong impression of very overcrowded trains and not nearly enough trains for the demand. Unfortunately, as far as I could tell on a quick skim read, the Wessex Route Study draft is basically not proposing any solutions because of the problem of all the level crossings along the route. I'm guessing the lack of grade separation at Barnes is quite an issue too. They've proposed a workaround - running some additional trains fast via Hounslow, which is imaginative, but doesn't seem to me to address the real problem.

If instead of Waterloo-East Putney-Wimbledon trains, you significantly increased the frequency to Richmond. Maybe something like - say - ran a Waterloo-Richmond shuttle every 10 minutes, and had all the existing trains through Richmond run limited stop between Richmond and Waterloo, I would imagine that would be very well used. But to do that, you'd have to throw very serious money at the line to sort out the level crossings and the line capacity - which is presumably why the Wessex Route Study doesn't propose anything of the sort

If they run additional trains via Hounslow would they need new rolling stock beyond what they are currently ordering or have ordered?

 

[21C101]

It's a nice idea, but I have to admit, I can't see even that being massively well used. It'd relieve some congestion from Wandsworth Town inwards, and probably a bit at Putney, if some people swap to East Putney to get to Waterloo. But other than that, there aren't really many journeys for which it'd make sense to use such a service over existing services. You'd basically be looking at Wandsworth Town to Wimbledon or Southfields to Clapham Junction/Waterloo, and I can't see either of those giving enough passengers to justify a very frequent service. And if the service is much less frequent than the services on the neighbouring lines, that'll be a bit of a disincentive to people using it.

What would probably help many more people is a more frequent service to Richmond. I haven't used that line that often, but when I have I've got the strong impression of very overcrowded trains and not nearly enough trains for the demand. Unfortunately, as far as I could tell on a quick skim read, the Wessex Route Study draft is basically not proposing any solutions because of the problem of all the level crossings along the route. I'm guessing the lack of grade separation at Barnes is quite an issue too. They've proposed a workaround - running some additional trains fast via Hounslow, which is imaginative, but doesn't seem to me to address the real problem.

If instead of Waterloo-East Putney-Wimbledon trains, you significantly increased the frequency to Richmond. Maybe something like - say - ran a Waterloo-Richmond shuttle every 10 minutes, and had all the existing trains through Richmond run limited stop between Richmond and Waterloo, I would imagine that would be very well used. But to do that, you'd have to throw very serious money at the line to sort out the level crossings and the line capacity - which is presumably why the Wessex Route Study doesn't propose anything of the sort

I wonder how a Waterloo-Vauxhall-Battersea-Chelsea-West Brompton-Kensington Olympia-Shepherds Bush- Hammersmith Grove Road-Ravenscourt Park-Stamford Brook-Turnham Green-Gunnersbury-Richmond would fare if it hadn't ceased in 1916?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I wonder how a Waterloo-Vauxhall-Battersea-Chelsea-West Brompton-Kensington Olympia-Shepherds Bush- Hammersmith Grove Road-Ravenscourt Park-Stamford Brook-Turnham Green-Gunnersbury-Richmond would fare if it hadn't ceased in 1916?

There used to be a train that did that? Wow! That explains what looks like the remains of a grade separated junction between Hammersmith and Ravenscourt Park which I've always been puzzled about.

I reckon that would be a good link that would be quite well used these days, since it would link several important places not on direct lines - especially with Westfield at Shepherds Bush. But I'm guessing that, sadly, it'd now be impossible to reconnect the required chords.

 

[21C101]

There used to be a train that did that? Wow! That explains what looks like the remains of a grade separated junction between Hammersmith and Ravenscourt Park which I've always been puzzled about.

I reckon that would be a good link that would be quite well used these days, since it would link several important places not on direct lines - especially with Westfield at Shepherds Bush. But I'm guessing that, sadly, it'd now be impossible to reconnect the required chords.

There is a bit about it here.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/shepherds_bush/

http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Hammersmith_Grove_Road.html

You can still trace the Olympia to Hammersmith chord by postcode boundaries on modern maps but the route is almost wholly built over. The LSWR station at Shepherds bush is was on Shepherds Bush Road right next to Shepherds Bush Green and would have been very handy if you wanted to get from Richmond to Westfield, although I suppose changing at Hammersmith isnt the end of the world.

According to one of the websites above, the reason that there is a footbridge at the north end of Hammersmith (Met) that only goes between the platforms - which is a bit odd for a terminus - is that it originally went onto Hammersmith Grove Road LSWR station.

 

[randompixel]

What would probably help many more people is a more frequent service to Richmond. I haven't used that line that often, but when I have I've got the strong impression of very overcrowded trains and not nearly enough trains for the demand.

Make that a Twickenham-Richmond-Waterloo shuttle and you have a deal. Away from London in the evening a sweaty crushed hellhole turns into a pleasent commute guatenteed past Twickenham. (Especially on short form days).