Will a fast service between Ashford and Tonbridge ever be viable again?

[TheJRB]

Ashford - Tonbridge is a 100 mph main line that today sees little but the two all stations trains per hour off-peak which run to Charing Cross. The service along this line was greatly altered with the commencement of domestic high speed services to St Pancras in 2009.

I can understand the alterations to a great degree; it was somewhat necessary to prevent the Tonbridge services from competing with HS1 services and some of the villages between have benefited from receiving an additional train every hour. I do sometimes question the need for the sleepy station of Pluckley to have two trains per hour to and from London but I'm certainly not one to suggest cutting back in terms of frequency.

What bothers me is how long winded it now is to get to some places that were much quicker to get to before. Take for example Waterloo; it was once possible to get between Waterloo East and Ashford in just under the hour (59 minutes on up services, 57 on the down according to the 2008 timetable). Now it's an hour and fifteen minutes on the days that London Bridge cooperates. Not particularly good if you want to visit or work in the Waterloo area or are connecting with a South West Trains service.

I realise that it is hard to justify running fast trains and I can clearly see that there are already too many strains provided by the service as it is but I think a trick is being missed here. Just one or two well placed fast services in the so called "shoulder peaks" would aid the situation, as has been seen with the introduction of the new 90 minute Hastings service which will run at the odd time of 16:20 from Charing Cross.

I noticed in this year's Kent Rail Summit, Charles Horton suggested that there was no need for faster journey times between East Kent and the West End because everybody uses the high speed service. Well perhaps that's because we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. From Ashford the best you're going to get to Waterloo in is about 65 minutes via HS1, an improvement of 10 minutes compared to via the current direct Tonbridge service and 6-8 minutes slower than was possible six years ago!

So would the reintroduction of a semi-fast or fast service between East Kent and Tonbridge on to the west end ever be viable or am I just worrying too much about my own problems?

 

[JamesRowden]

Ashford - Tonbridge is a 100 mph main line that today sees little but the two all stations trains per hour off-peak which run to Charing Cross. The service along this line was greatly altered with the commencement of domestic high speed services to St Pancras in 2009.

I can understand the alterations to a great degree; it was somewhat necessary to prevent the Tonbridge services from competing with HS1 services and some of the villages between have benefited from receiving an additional train every hour. I do sometimes question the need for the sleepy station of Pluckley to have two trains per hour to and from London but I'm certainly not one to suggest cutting back in terms of frequency.

What bothers me is how long winded it now is to get to some places that were much quicker to get to before. Take for example Waterloo; it was once possible to get between Waterloo East and Ashford in just under the hour (59 minutes on up services, 57 on the down according to the 2008 timetable). Now it's an hour and fifteen minutes on the days that London Bridge cooperates. Not particularly good if you want to visit or work in the Waterloo area or are connecting with a South West Trains service.

I realise that it is hard to justify running fast trains and I can clearly see that there are already too many strains provided by the service as it is but I think a trick is being missed here. Just one or two well placed fast services in the so called "shoulder peaks" would aid the situation, as has been seen with the introduction of the new 90 minute Hastings service which will run at the odd time of 16:20 from Charing Cross.

I noticed in this year's Kent Rail Summit, Charles Horton suggested that there was no need for faster journey times between East Kent and the West End because everybody uses the high speed service. Well perhaps that's because we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. From Ashford the best you're going to get to Waterloo in is about 65 minutes via HS1, an improvement of 10 minutes compared to via the current direct Tonbridge service and 6-8 minutes slower than was possible six years ago!

So would the reintroduction of a semi-fast or fast service between East Kent and Tonbridge on to the west end ever be viable or am I just worrying too much about my own problems?

I've been thinking that it might be worth extending the London-Redhill-Tonbridge services as a fast service beyond Tonbridge through to Dover (like the original SER service) to provide better non-London journey opportunities to/from East Kent.

The other thing that I have been thinking it that since from mid-Janaury the Thameslink services won't take paths between London Bridge and Waterloo East off-peak: the present 2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro service could run no further than Orpington; and the subsequently released paths between Orpington and Sevenoaks used by mainline services that stop all stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks and run beyond Sevenoaks to provide an 8tph mainline service between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks. Perhaps if timetables were altered this would allow: the off-peak Hastings fast services to run non-stop between Tonbridge and London; and the old hourly London-Tonbridge-Ashford-(beyond) fast service to operate.

Both of my ideas are dependent on there being enough capacity at Tonbridge to path the trains through without obstructing each other.

 

[daveswest]

When I was younger , the " fast " Charing X, Waterloo East , Ashford , Folkestone Central , Dover Priory used to have a running time of 1hr 28 mins . St Pancras Dover Priory is now booked at 1hr 10 mins , really not that much difference is it !

 

[Bald Rick]

When I was younger , the " fast " Charing X, Waterloo East , Ashford , Folkestone Central , Dover Priory used to have a running time of 1hr 28 mins . St Pancras Dover Priory is now booked at 1hr 10 mins , really not that much difference is it !

Just the 20 % quicker.

 

[TheJRB]

When I was younger , the " fast " Charing X, Waterloo East , Ashford , Folkestone Central , Dover Priory used to have a running time of 1hr 28 mins . St Pancras Dover Priory is now booked at 1hr 10 mins , really not that much difference is it !

Just the 20 % quicker.

To clarify, I don't want to start criticising HS1. Ashford-London in 30-38 minutes just simply wouldn't be possible by any alternative route. It's allowed for vastly easier connections from Kent to the Docklands, various parts of London, East Anglia, the East Midlands, the East Coast and even the West Coast Main Line. I wouldn't swap my Javelin for anything!

All I'm saying is that it's silly that it takes longer to get to Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, London Bridge, Waterloo and the West End from East Kent now than just a few years ago. I'm pleased that it's allowed the villages to thrive and travelling on the 09:03 from Ashford this morning, goodness how busy it gets too even before Tonbridge! I just don't think it should be so black and white as "you have your high speed train to St Pancras so you can't have anything but a stopping train to anywhere else".

The argument that "everybody uses HS1 so a faster service to Charing Cross isn't necessary" can't be proven unless you try running both at the same time and compare numbers. If people had a choice, perhaps the numbers might be a bit more equal and you wouldn't have the sort of crowding you get on HS1 at peak leisure travel times (like the 09:43 from Ashford on weekdays or the 10:43 on weekends).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been thinking that it might be worth extending the London-Redhill-Tonbridge services as a fast service beyond Tonbridge through to Dover (like the original SER service) to provide better non-London journey opportunities to/from East Kent.

The other thing that I have been thinking it that since from mid-Janaury the Thameslink services won't take paths between London Bridge and Waterloo East off-peak: the present 2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro service could run no further than Orpington; and the subsequently released paths between Orpington and Sevenoaks used by mainline services that stop all stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks and run beyond Sevenoaks to provide an 8tph mainline service between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks. Perhaps if timetables were altered this would allow: the off-peak Hastings fast services to run non-stop between Tonbridge and London; and the old hourly London-Tonbridge-Ashford-(beyond) fast service to operate.

Both of my ideas are dependent on there being enough capacity at Tonbridge to path the trains through without obstructing each other.

I think your first idea of extending the Redhill line service would be a very sensible one. It would both cater for traffic from Kent to Redhill, Croydon and Gatwick (seeing as it's been confirmed there will be no through service to the airport from Kent for the foreseeable future) and also provide the missing third train an hour between Ashford, Folkestone and Dover that will be missing from the next timetable change.

Naturally I like your second idea too but I can't see such a thing happening unfortunately!

 

[jopsuk]

I would guess now it would have to be other existing services extended- surely the capacity into the terminals Southeastern serve is critical?

 

[otomous]

I've been thinking that it might be worth extending the London-Redhill-Tonbridge services as a fast service beyond Tonbridge through to Dover (like the original SER service) to provide better non-London journey opportunities to/from East Kent.

The other thing that I have been thinking it that since from mid-Janaury the Thameslink services won't take paths between London Bridge and Waterloo East off-peak: the present 2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro service could run no further than Orpington; and the subsequently released paths between Orpington and Sevenoaks used by mainline services that stop all stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks and run beyond Sevenoaks to provide an 8tph mainline service between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks. Perhaps if timetables were altered this would allow: the off-peak Hastings fast services to run non-stop between Tonbridge and London; and the old hourly London-Tonbridge-Ashford-(beyond) fast service to operate.

Both of my ideas are dependent on there being enough capacity at Tonbridge to path the trains through without obstructing each other.

Trouble is the Redhill-Tonbridge services are only 4 coaches long so might hit capacity problems by occupying paths east of Tonbridge.

Also I am not sure that substituting a Sevenoaks terminating stopper for a Tonbridge service that stops in the same places instead helps because it is still effectively blocking the line when it does the intermediate stops; also, it would abstract passengers who require Chelsfield etc from a current Networker service to a 375 service; the latter may then need extending for which there probably isn't the stock and are the platforms long enough for longer trains anyway?

 

[TheJRB]

Trouble is the Redhill-Tonbridge services are only 4 coaches long so might hit capacity problems by occupying paths east of Tonbridge.

I don't think 4 coaches for a fast Tonbridge-Ashford would be too much of a problem. I'd anticipate enough traffic to comfortably fill most seats but I don't think there would be any overcrowding off-peak. Ashford-Dover stopping services are 4 coaches for most of the day anyway.

 

[JamesRowden]

The other thing that I have been thinking it that since from mid-Janaury the Thameslink services won't take paths between London Bridge and Waterloo East off-peak: the present 2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro service could run no further than Orpington; and the subsequently released paths between Orpington and Sevenoaks used by mainline services that stop all stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks and run beyond Sevenoaks to provide an 8tph mainline service between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks. Perhaps if timetables were altered this would allow: the off-peak Hastings fast services to run non-stop between Tonbridge and London; and the old hourly London-Tonbridge-Ashford-(beyond) fast service to operate.

Also I am not sure that substituting a Sevenoaks terminating stopper for a Tonbridge service that stops in the same places instead helps because it is still effectively blocking the line when it does the intermediate stops; also, it would abstract passengers who require Chelsfield etc from a current Networker service to a 375 service; the latter may then need extending for which there probably isn't the stock and are the platforms long enough for longer trains anyway?

I was suggesting only altering the off-peak service pattern: therefore quantity of stock and platform lengths shouldn't be a problem.

My suggestion removes the present situation of the Up Sevenoaks metro services crossing the down fast paths at Orpington.

It would reduce the journey time for the stations between Orpington and Sevenaoks to/from Central London by 12 minutes.

This extra 2tph service (or 1tph of it) could possibly terminate at Tonbridge P4 and only produce similar conflicts at Tonbridge to that which the present Charing Cross to Sevenoaks metro service currently causes at Orpington. So that it doesn't use up too much capacity: it probably wouldn't stop at Hildenborough.

 

[yorksrob]

Given how handy Waterloo and Charing Cross are for the West of England and the West End, it's a shame we can no longer sail through the centre roads of Headcorn and Paddock Wood like the good old days. Nevertheless, I can't see it happening again as I think the paths on the cut-off line have been redistributed.

 

[telstarbox]

Im sure the market from the smaller stations to London + Tonbridge + Ashford is bigger than the direct Tonbridge-Ashford market and so a fast between Tonbridge and Ashford would be of limited use (now that Ashford has HS1).

Paddock Wood, Staplehurst and Headcorn are all significant railheads for the surrounding towns and villages without stations.

 

[tsr]

I don't think 4 coaches for a fast Tonbridge-Ashford would be too much of a problem. I'd anticipate enough traffic to comfortably fill most seats but I don't think there would be any overcrowding off-peak. Ashford-Dover stopping services are 4 coaches for most of the day anyway.

You have to factor in things like school/college traffic on the Redhill-Coulsdon South segment of the route. It might be more sensible to run the service as an 8-car formation with SDO. Longer-distance passengers would then be better advised to use the rear 2-4 coaches (roughly) for a quieter experience between Redhill & Tonbridge, although quite how that could effectively detailed to them I do not know. All that said, if the service was as useful as suggested, you could see a lot more people using it, and thus it being much busier anyway, requiring longer trains.

The other issue is that it is somewhat odd to have a fast Ashford-Tonbridge service continuing as a stopping service to Purley, then running semi-fast to London Bridge. Maybe a separate portion could run between Tonbridge & Redhill, calling at all stations, and attaching at Redhill. There is a serious proposal by GTR to run trains from Tonbridge to London Victoria instead of London Bridge off-peak from December 2015, with calls at East Croydon and Clapham Junction only after Redhill, so maybe this would allow a more feasible fast service from Ashford International, with said portion attaching. Redhill is very well used to attachments and it should not also be disastrous not to attach coaches, leaving any late-running all-stations stopper to connect with a slightly later London-bound train, and then shunt to Redhill Platform 3 (or remain in another platform, if need be) and await the next Southbound service for the line of route.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Ah, my pet subject.

I've been commuting from Ashford to London (on and off) since 1994. Currently use HS1 as i could not do the job using the classic line. Job is in Canning Town. 30 mins Ashford to Stratford, 12 mins onward to Canning Town. Impossible with the classic line as it would make a 16/17hr day as my shifts are 12hrs.

Adding up my fastest journeys on the classic line i arrive at a time of 48 mins from London Bridge to Ashford with 1 stop at Tonbridge. This was in the days of CEP, CIG and VEP.

Had my last trip on the 08:53 ex Charing Cross on Monday. Not as fast as previous trips, only managed 82mph down Hildenborough bank and 97mph at Paddock Wood. Previous trips managed 101mph at both locations. It normally manages 95 to 100 all the way from Paddock Wood to Pluckley.

Catch it while you can, it does not exist after the timetable change in the new year. No more chance of a 100mph run through the weald of Kent.

 

[Taunton]

I think it's a shame that the HS1 domestic services were not given to a different train operator than SE, who would have been free to compete on operations and fares on the legacy route. Wonder how that would have turned out.

 

[N Levers]

Don't forget that London Bridge to Tonbridge services (via Redhill) become Victoria to Tonbridge services from Dec 2015. This could have potential to be Victoria to Ashford / Dover...

 

[Bald Rick]

Ashford-Dover stopping services are 4 coaches for most of the day anyway.

Not from January.

 

[TheJRB]

Ah, my pet subject.

I've been commuting from Ashford to London (on and off) since 1994. Currently use HS1 as i could not do the job using the classic line. Job is in Canning Town. 30 mins Ashford to Stratford, 12 mins onward to Canning Town. Impossible with the classic line as it would make a 16/17hr day as my shifts are 12hrs.

Adding up my fastest journeys on the classic line i arrive at a time of 48 mins from London Bridge to Ashford with 1 stop at Tonbridge. This was in the days of CEP, CIG and VEP.

Had my last trip on the 08:53 ex Charing Cross on Monday. Not as fast as previous trips, only managed 82mph down Hildenborough bank and 97mph at Paddock Wood. Previous trips managed 101mph at both locations. It normally manages 95 to 100 all the way from Paddock Wood to Pluckley.

Catch it while you can, it does not exist after the timetable change in the new year. No more chance of a 100mph run through the weald of Kent.

I may have to head out early to Tonbridge to get that at some point this month. Tempting to do it while I can!

I think it's a shame that the HS1 domestic services were not given to a different train operator than SE, who would have been free to compete on operations and fares on the legacy route. Wonder how that would have turned out.

I've thought about that. Downside would probably be that Tunbridge Wells wouldn't have taken the two slow paths and would thus have fewer trains per hour to and from Charing Cross. Also perhaps the smaller stations between Ashford and Tonbridge would still have just the one train per hour.

Don't forget that London Bridge to Tonbridge services (via Redhill) become Victoria to Tonbridge services from Dec 2015. This could have potential to be Victoria to Ashford / Dover...

I've had a look at the proposed timetable from Southern and I thoroughly welcome the proposed changes. Indeed even with the ten or so minute change at Tonbridge, it'll only be a few minutes slower than taking the direct train from Victoria to Ashford.

Not from January.

Ah yes I forgot about that. Still with one less train per hour it means roughly the same capacity is maintained!

 

[yorksrob]

Hopefully the Thumper will do it at speed some time.

 

[Antman]

I think it's a shame that the HS1 domestic services were not given to a different train operator than SE, who would have been free to compete on operations and fares on the legacy route. Wonder how that would have turned out.

I've often thought that, maybe we would at least have a few peak hour fast services from Ashford to London Bridge and Cannon Street but there is no point in SET competing with theirselves.

It is a shame to see this fast section of line under used, extending the Redhill service from Tonbridge to Ashford and beyond would seem the only other option, how viable that would be I'm not sure.

 

[Hophead]

The timetable that Southeastern currently operates is essentially the one given to them by DfT when HS1 opened (with tweaks over the years). Along with the requirement for a 20% surcharge on fares to London over the high-speed route.

 

[21C101]

Of course there is nothing stopping an open access operator running a Dover, Folkestone, Ashford, Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bromley South, Victoria service.....

 

[JamesRowden]

Of course there is nothing stopping an open access operator running a Dover, Folkestone, Ashford, Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bromley South, Victoria service.....

Except for: the fact that Southeastern would claim that it already serves this market; and I expect that open access operator fast paths might be difficult to thread through the Southeastern timetable.

 

[21C101]

Except for: the fact that Southeastern would claim that it already serves this market; and I expect that open access operator fast paths might be difficult to thread through the Southeastern timetable.

It would depend how keen the open access operator was. If Southeastern claimed "it already serves this market" I'm sure the competition commision might have something to say.

It probably isn't on until 2018 when London Bridge is finished but after then there is plenty of room for a half hourly fast service from Dover via Ashford and Tonbridge to Victoria. How do you think the boat trains used to fit in? - and in those days there wasn't the flyunder at Shortlands.

 

[notadriver]

Ah, my pet subject.

I've been commuting from Ashford to London (on and off) since 1994. Currently use HS1 as i could not do the job using the classic line. Job is in Canning Town. 30 mins Ashford to Stratford, 12 mins onward to Canning Town. Impossible with the classic line as it would make a 16/17hr day as my shifts are 12hrs.

Adding up my fastest journeys on the classic line i arrive at a time of 48 mins from London Bridge to Ashford with 1 stop at Tonbridge. This was in the days of CEP, CIG and VEP.

Had my last trip on the 08:53 ex Charing Cross on Monday. Not as fast as previous trips, only managed 82mph down Hildenborough bank and 97mph at Paddock Wood. Previous trips managed 101mph at both locations. It normally manages 95 to 100 all the way from Paddock Wood to Pluckley.



Catch it while you can, it does not exist after the timetable change in the new year. No more chance of a 100mph run through the weald of Kent.

Very interesting. The line as far as Tonbridge is quite busy so the 82 mph might be to do with following another train. The 0853 or it's equivalent does exist but runs as ECS in the new timetable. You can still get plenty of 90 mph plus running between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood with 100 down the Hidenborough Bank and between Ashford and Westenhanger (both directions)

 

[Busaholic]

Although I used to live in Kent (Sittingbourne) and work for Camden Council right opposite St Pancras Station, in the days when the British Library wasn't there let alone HS1, the fact is that St Pancras is neither West End nor City and most commuters will need a bus or tube to continue their journey to work, whereas Charing Cross, London Bridge and Cannon Street are walkable for many and Waterloo provides other opportunities too, so any saving in journey times has to be repaid at the London end along with the colossal fare. Of course use should be made of the potential line speed between Tonbridge and Ashford - the ferry operators should get together with a potential train operator to encourage foot-passenger day trips to Calais, which would bring an against-the-flow traffic to balance the peak hour potential.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course use should be made of the potential line speed between Tonbridge and Ashford

Particularly given the amount of money invested in it during the early 1990's.

 

[MCR247]

It would depend how keen the open access operator was. If Southeastern claimed "it already serves this market" I'm sure the competition commision might have something to say.
.

You realise that any open access operation has to pass a revenue abstraction test? In short, unless a new market is being served it won't get approved. For example, assuming Grand Central was a new operation hoping to start in 2015; if they applied for London - York only they would fail that test. However, Sunderland - London via york is serving a new market and so it wouldn't fail. I can't see a service that duplicates SE (albeit with less stops) passing the revenue abstraction test

 

[JonathanH]

I've often thought that, maybe we would at least have a few peak hour fast services from Ashford to London Bridge and Cannon Street but there is no point in SET competing with theirselves.

It is a shame to see this fast section of line under used, extending the Redhill service from Tonbridge to Ashford and beyond would seem the only other option, how viable that would be I'm not sure.

It wouldn't be viable at all. There is no franchise requirement to do it and it is at best a marginal proposition to their core interests.

GTR have reduced the turnaround times on the Reigate and Tonbridge services in their revised timetable such that the Tonbridge turnaround is much shorter than in the current timetable. In the current timetable, the turnaround is 30 minutes. This reduces to 14 minutes in the December 2015 timetable. To run to Ashford would require an additional unit to be used on a route which would not bring in enough traffic.

As GTR state in their consultation document,

Connectivity to/from the Redhill to Tonbridge routes for destinations into the wider Kent and Sussex regions is an important feature for some stakeholders. Aligning train services with others on multiple routes can be sometimes difficult to create a solution which fits many needs, partially when
connections apply at both ends of the route. However, in relative terms, the number of passengers making regular cross-Tonbridge journeys is low.

Even if the return working of the Reigate and Tonbridge terminators were swapped to the opposite half hour - ie a 44 minute turnaround, it wouldn't get you enough time for the train to get to Ashford and back.

The southbound path from Victoria of the Reigate / Tonbridge service looks pretty much like the optimum one as it eliminates the use of Stoats Nest Junction. The northbound path from Redhill isn't so good because it still uses Stoats Nest Junction and overtakes one of the other trains from Redhill but it does give an 18 minute turnaround at Victoria so fits in with stock utilisation.

However, if you think you can make a case, you really ought to respond to the December 2015 consultation process as now would at least get it considered.

Although I used to live in Kent (Sittingbourne) and work for Camden Council right opposite St Pancras Station, in the days when the British Library wasn't there let alone HS1, the fact is that St Pancras is neither West End nor City and most commuters will need a bus or tube to continue their journey to work, whereas Charing Cross, London Bridge and Cannon Street are walkable for many and Waterloo provides other opportunities too, so any saving in journey times has to be repaid at the London end along with the colossal fare. Of course use should be made of the potential line speed between Tonbridge and Ashford - the ferry operators should get together with a potential train operator to encourage foot-passenger day trips to Calais, which would bring an against-the-flow traffic to balance the peak hour potential.

There are already joint offers with Southeastern to encourage foot-passenger day trips to Calais. It doesn't seem to be a very big market.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would depend how keen the open access operator was. If Southeastern claimed "it already serves this market" I'm sure the competition commision might have something to say.

It probably isn't on until 2018 when London Bridge is finished but after then there is plenty of room for a half hourly fast service from Dover via Ashford and Tonbridge to Victoria. How do you think the boat trains used to fit in? - and in those days there wasn't the flyunder at Shortlands.

I thought the capacity the boat trains used was taken up by Eurostar to 2007, and when they went off to St Pancras, the capacity was then used to increase the metro services into Victoria. There are certainly no spare peak paths at Herne Hill.

 

[Hophead]

Particularly given the amount of money invested in it during the early 1990's.

Although somewhat less than the amount spent on Ashford's fastest route to London