Beddau line 'in principle' Welsh first minister

[Tumbleweed]

Read a few pages down, apparently Carwyn Jones says the Beddau line still needs a business case, thought it already had one!

http://www.yoursenedd.com/debates/2014-10-07-questions-to-the-first-minister

First Minister, one of the exciting parts about the metro proposals is not only the opening of new lines but also the reopening of dormant lines. For example, for people in my constituency, there is Llantrisant, where there are proposals for a new line, but we still have the Pontyclun to Tynant, Beddau line. Is that something that will feature in the consideration of the metro project?

In principle, yes, but a case would have to be made for reopening the line. I am aware of it and the level crossing that exists, which would need to be upgraded; we know that. I remember the line when it carried coke from Beddau and from Cwm Colliery; it has not been used since then. The line is still there, and where rail lines are still in situ then, of course, it is easier to give consideration to reopening them. However, I stress that a full business case would have to be made.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I'm afraid it'll be a case of "don't hold your breath"...been waiting for this line to be properly used since the coal trains stopped working in '83 or so.

It is a huge pity that practically all (or actually all) of the E-W links across the valleys are gone. The whole Pontypridd-Tonteg-Pontyclun link would have been extremely useful.

t.

Ian

 

[CapitalStar378]

It's definitely got a business case. The traffic from Beddau/Llantrisant to Cardiff is case enough.

I thought this was a major part of the as yet non existent south Wales Metro project, why the back tracking? Maybe because SEWTA is no more :cry:

 

[Greenback]

This line is more important and will bring benefits to a greater number of people than reopening a line such as Carmarthen to Aberystwyth.

The difficulty is that money is very, very tight at the minute, with health and education being seen as the priorities.

 

[Emyr]

The difficulty is that money is very, very tight at the minute, with health and education being seen as the priorities.

Trains are a useful way of getting large numbers of employees to large centres of employment such as hospitals and large numbers of children to schools.

I'd normally expect them to be more reliable in terms of getting to an appointment on time than a bus...


There you go, transport policy aligned with health and education

 

[Greenback]

Nice one! Have you thought of becoming an AM?!

 

[Tumbleweed]

I messaged Mick Antoniw, my local AM, apparently it will be part of the Metro, so here's hoping

 

[Solaris]

I messaged Mick Antoniw, my local AM, apparently it will be part of the Metro, so here's hoping

That line can never reopen as heavy rail.... too costly, more operational subsidy and the main line can't really accommodate the additional service. Business case would never work....

Metro envisages that this connectivity will be delivered from a new LR line from city centre via city line to danescourt and then new via fairwater, j33, creigiau, Llantrisant/Talbot green and terminating with interchange at Pontyclun. This links to new housing in NW Cardiff, creigiau and existing settlements in/around Llantrisant. But this still 10 yrs away.... needs much more development.

 

[Envoy]

In addition to Beddau, we are really talking about the combined population of Llantwit Fardre, Church Village, Tonteg & Efail Isaf and the best way for them to reach Cardiff (mainly).

As already mentioned, to re-open the Beddau to Pontyclun railway and then have services on the main line is out of the question due to capacity issues.

The so called 'Metro' service would involve re-building the former freight line that ran from near Danescourt station (on Cardiff 'City' line) to Cregiau and then possibly to Efail Isaf &/or Beddau. The original section as far as Cregiau was single track so would not be conducive to a frequent 'tram' type of service due to passing issues.

According to the Cardiff Local Development Plan, the above mentioned line would provide a means of transport between new housing areas to the north west of the city (including the expansion of Cregiau & development around M4 J33) & the city centre. Needless to say, such development in the scenic countryside that lies north west of Cardiff has attracted much opposition.

I contend that regarding Beddau, that we already have a way of transporting the populous to Cardiff that is much quicker than any 'Metro' tram line via Cregiau would ever be = via Pontyclun station and the main line. A quick check on www.nationalrail.co.uk reveals that PYC to CDF takes between 12 & 17 minutes with trains travelling non-stop (at speeds up to 90mph). Fares are £6.70 return (peak) & £4.60 return (off peak). Now, let a suppose that a Metro is built to Beddau via Cregiau. Well, if we take the present timings from Danescourt to CDF we have 12 minutes at a cost of £3.60 return. So, clearly, slow trams running on a new Metro line all the way from Beddau would take considerably longer to reach Cardiff Central than trains take from Pontyclun using the main line.

That leaves the 'problem' of transporting people from Beddau to Pontyclun station. At present, a bus service operated by Edwards takes 12 minutes to get from Beddau to Talbot Green. Another, operated by NAT takes 21 minutes to get from Beddau to Pontyclun (Cwrt Bethel). Neither of these buses gets people direct from Beddau to the nearest place (on the main road) that they could stop for customers to reach Pontyclun station. Goodness knows whether they correspond to train times. Anyway, what I am saying is that buses need to be co-ordinated to get people to their nearest railheads to match train times.

Neither does a direct bus service operate from Beddau down to Llantrisant and then onto the M4 at J34 for onward travel direct to central Cardiff. However, Stagecoach operate a service from Talbot Green to Cardiff via the A4119. Whilst useful to those en-route, it is of little use to most due to the fact that it takes 50 minutes to reach Cardiff Bus Station (via congested Llandaff).

However, most people will use cars - either to drive direct to Cardiff or to their nearest railhead. Pontyclun station area is absolutely ram packed with cars on weekdays indicating that this is a popular choice. If planners wish for people to not drive into major cities such as Cardiff, then they could well induce many to drive to car parks (preferably free) by rail stations for onward travel by train. A footpath on the west bank of the Ely could easily be turned into a little road to gain access to derelict rail land west of Pontyclun station to increase the parking area.

Church Village & Tonteg are further away from Pontyclun than Beddau and their nearest railhead is on the Taff Valley line at Treforest. Unfortunately, this is not the nearest point of the railway. What I think should happen is that a new station should be built where the new A473 passes this line between Tonteg & Upper Boat. Provide free parking and I bet many people
will leave their cars and travel into Cardiff by train rather than the A470*.Bus services should run between perhaps Pontypridd & such a new station before proceeding to Tonteg, Church Village, Beddau, Talbot Green, Pontyclun and Brynsadler. Thus we have a linked up transport system in this area between settlements & two railheads.

* Peak trains are currently at loading capacity but this situation should ease in the next few years with new rolling stock.

 

[Tumbleweed]

In addition to Beddau, we are really talking about the combined population of Llantwit Fardre, Church Village, Tonteg & Efail Isaf and the best way for them to reach Cardiff (mainly).

As already mentioned, to re-open the Beddau to Pontyclun railway and then have services on the main line is out of the question due to capacity issues.

The so called 'Metro' service would involve re-building the former freight line that ran from near Danescourt station (on Cardiff 'City' line) to Cregiau and then possibly to Efail Isaf &/or Beddau. The original section as far as Cregiau was single track so would not be conducive to a frequent 'tram' type of service due to passing issues.

According to the Cardiff Local Development Plan, the above mentioned line would provide a means of transport between new housing areas to the north west of the city (including the expansion of Cregiau & development around M4 J33) & the city centre. Needless to say, such development in the scenic countryside that lies north west of Cardiff has attracted much opposition.

I contend that regarding Beddau, that we already have a way of transporting the populous to Cardiff that is much quicker than any 'Metro' tram line via Cregiau would ever be = via Pontyclun station and the main line. A quick check on www.nationalrail.co.uk reveals that PYC to CDF takes between 12 & 17 minutes with trains travelling non-stop (at speeds up to 90mph). Fares are £6.70 return (peak) & £4.60 return (off peak). Now, let a suppose that a Metro is built to Beddau via Cregiau. Well, if we take the present timings from Danescourt to CDF we have 12 minutes at a cost of £3.60 return. So, clearly, slow trams running on a new Metro line all the way from Beddau would take considerably longer to reach Cardiff Central than trains take from Pontyclun using the main line.

That leaves the 'problem' of transporting people from Beddau to Pontyclun station. At present, a bus service operated by Edwards takes 12 minutes to get from Beddau to Talbot Green. Another, operated by NAT takes 21 minutes to get from Beddau to Pontyclun (Cwrt Bethel). Neither of these buses gets people direct from Beddau to the nearest place (on the main road) that they could stop for customers to reach Pontyclun station. Goodness knows whether they correspond to train times. Anyway, what I am saying is that buses need to be co-ordinated to get people to their nearest railheads to match train times.

Neither does a direct bus service operate from Beddau down to Llantrisant and then onto the M4 at J34 for onward travel direct to central Cardiff. However, Stagecoach operate a service from Talbot Green to Cardiff via the A4119. Whilst useful to those en-route, it is of little use to most due to the fact that it takes 50 minutes to reach Cardiff Bus Station (via congested Llandaff).

However, most people will use cars - either to drive direct to Cardiff or to their nearest railhead. Pontyclun station area is absolutely ram packed with cars on weekdays indicating that this is a popular choice. If planners wish for people to not drive into major cities such as Cardiff, then they could well induce many to drive to car parks (preferably free) by rail stations for onward travel by train. A footpath on the west bank of the Ely could easily be turned into a little road to gain access to derelict rail land west of Pontyclun station to increase the parking area.

Church Village & Tonteg are further away from Pontyclun than Beddau and their nearest railhead is on the Taff Valley line at Treforest. Unfortunately, this is not the nearest point of the railway. What I think should happen is that a new station should be built where the new A473 passes this line between Tonteg & Upper Boat. Provide free parking and I bet many people
will leave their cars and travel into Cardiff by train rather than the A470*.Bus services should run between perhaps Pontypridd & such a new station before proceeding to Tonteg, Church Village, Beddau, Talbot Green, Pontyclun and Brynsadler. Thus we have a linked up transport system in this area between settlements & two railheads.

* Peak trains are currently at loading capacity but this situation should ease in the next few years with new rolling stock.

Hi Envoy

Link buses from towns to any train stations that you mention have more or less been discarded by RCT, partly because they are very expensive to run for few passengers. Nobody wants to wait around for a bus, then have to get off at a station to hang around for a train.

The bus from Beddau to Cardiff takes 50 minutes - just for what, 12-13 miles? That is hardly going to lure people out of cars. The last SEWTA study said there is capacity on the main line, and the scheme had an average BCR Of 2.7.

The Llantrisant Beddau area is facing total gridlock in the next few years, and the best alternatives excluding rail have been shuttle buses and cycle tracks, which quite frankly is laughable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One for those local to this area. Was the former Beddau Halt ever known as Worlds End?

 

[Envoy]

Hi Tumbleweed,

Buses do run in the area but it seems crazy that they do not drop people off at the nearest main road point just east of Pontyclun station - with its fast services to Cardiff. Likewise, a new station where the A473 road descends to the Taff Valley with a free car park would surely induce people from these communities to switch to rail travel. The buses linking Pontyclun with Pontypridd could also call at such a station.

Another disincentive to use bus links is that people have to pay for the bus and again for the train. A really cheap bus link could be the answer.

Regarding traffic: it was quite obvious to me that a single carriageway by-pass for the new A473 would be quite inadequate. What was clearly needed was a dual highway linking the M4 at J34 (Miskin) with the A470 at Upper Boat. This should have been built by the Welsh Government as it forms part of the strategic highway network in south Wales and would in effect, have provide relief for the lower section of the A470 by providing a short cut between the central valleys and the M4 to/from west Wales.
Unfortunately, the Welsh Government did not see it this way and allowed Rhondda Cynon Taff Council to build the present cheapskate route with multiple roundabouts and
single carriageway. The volume of traffic on the route now shows that I was right in my assumption that this route should have been a dual highway - preferably with interchanges rather than roundabouts.

 

[anthony263]

I did read in the latest Sewta rail strategy that it is possible to fit 2tph between Cardiff & Beddau via Pontyclun along with the additional services to Swansea and Maesteg and freight services.

An idea is to open a station at Miskin with the current freight loops upgraded and served by most of the local services. There would be some issue's with reliability if the services are worked by dmu's however this would be improved with the use of emu's.

There is one issue however with the option of re-opening the route via Pontyclun and that is the level crossing over the Talbot Green by-pass. It would be possible to build and underpass for the railway but it would be a very steep grade and a new crossover would be needed on the SWML at Pontyclun. As for parking at Pontyclun station perhaps the old bay platform could be filled in and the car park expanded. The station could also do with being better signposted from the main roads which do get frequent bus services operated by First/Stagecoach and New Adventure Travel.One problem with the route via Creigiau would be the epexnsive task of a new bridge over the M4.

The SEWTA rail stategy stated that a round trip between Cardiff and Beddau would be around 50 minutes and did suggest running an hourly service using the stock which stables over at Cardiff Central between working trips to Ebbw Vale although a number of peak hour services do run beyond Cardiff to Bridgend/Swansea

 

[rf_ioliver]

One for those local to this area. Was the former Beddau Halt ever known as Worlds End?

Yes.

t.

Ian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally I think the now longstanding plan for a "new" Tonteg station at the bottom of Power Station Hill on the existing line is a very poor choice. For a start getting up and down that hill is a pain even after the bypass work and that many busses to Cardiff already go via there anyway, so why change mode of transport? Then there's its proximity to Trefforest Estate anyway.

The whole tram idea I've always found weird over such distances. Within Cardiff yes, but between Cardiff and Beddau (via Creigau), probably not. At this rate, HS2 is going to be tram-train

Probably the best solution is to have a diverging track at St Ffagans via Creigau then via Rhiwsaeson and Cross Inn to Llantrisant/Pontyclun. A triangle junction to the east of Cross Inn would allow, say 1tph Pontyclun-Creigau-Cardiff, 1tph Cardiff-Pontyclun-Beddau and 1tph Pontyclun-Beddau.

You've also the possibility of continuing along the Barry line to Tonteg, though there'd be a bit of compusory purchases in Efail Isaf and if you're really rich a rather nice viaduct over the Power Station Hill roundabout to allow the line to continue from Tonteg to Trefforest.

Ah, sorry, delving into the realms of fantasy maybe, but all theoretically possible. However what is lost forever is the E-W line at least from Church Village through to Llantwit Faerdef/Beddau

t.

Ian

 

[Tumbleweed]

The whole tram idea I've always found weird over such distances. Within Cardiff yes, but between Cardiff and Beddau (via Creigau), probably not. At this rate, HS2 is going to be tram-train

Correct - Tram trains is bit of a non starter - as far as Creigiau yes, but then you have the issue with the M4 as sonmeone has pointed out as well as the A473 at Cross Inn.

Buses do run in the area but it seems crazy that they do not drop people off at the nearest main road point just east of Pontyclun station - with its fast services to Cardiff. Likewise, a new station where the A473 road descends to the Taff Valley with a free car park would surely induce people from these communities to switch to rail travel. The buses linking Pontyclun with Pontypridd could also call at such a station.

Another disincentive to use bus links is that people have to pay for the bus and again for the train. A really cheap bus link could be the answer.

Regarding traffic: it was quite obvious to me that a single carriageway by-pass for the new A473 would be quite inadequate. What was clearly needed was a dual highway linking the M4 at J34 (Miskin) with the A470 at Upper Boat. This should have been built by the Welsh Government as it forms part of the strategic highway network in south Wales and would in effect, have provide relief for the lower section of the A470 by providing a short cut between the central valleys and the M4 to/from west Wales.
Unfortunately, the Welsh Government did not see it this way and allowed Rhondda Cynon Taff Council to build the present cheapskate route with multiple roundabouts and
single carriageway. The volume of traffic on the route now shows that I was right in my assumption that this route should have been a dual highway - preferably with interchanges rather than roundabouts.

The Church Village bypass was supposed to alleviate traffic at Coryton, thats why it was going to be a dual carriageway. That idea was shelved leaving a road which was simply going to take traffic out of the surrounding villages and is now badly congested at either end at peak times.

 

[anthony263]

I do agree the A473 can be a nightmare at rushhour with the traffic regulary backing from Talbot Green back towards the M4 at Jct 34.

I do think a 30 minutely service from Beddau via Pontyclun would be very well used especially during rush hour along wih the 30 minutely service from Maesteg. another issue with tram-trains is pathing them through Cardiff Central or the massive disruption is the route through Cardiff was on street

 

[Cardiffian]

Living as I do on the City Line near Fairwater, I've got mixed feelings about reopening the Fairwater-Creigiau link. Certainly we'd benefit from having more trains through our stations (I make a lot of use of Fairwater station and really miss having a Sunday train service!).

Much of the old trackbed to Creigiau survives but demolition of houses in Fairwater to reconnect with the City Line would be unpopular to say the least. However I'm not convinced that trams would be useful on our part of the City Line, especially as it's currently a useful diversion from Radyr to Cardiff for Valleys trains when the other route via Llandaf is affected. Also the coal trains to Aberthaw use this section twice a day.

On balance I think the route up from Pontyclun using the remnant track to Llantrisant and then extending up to Beddau would be better.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Living as I do on the City Line near Fairwater, I've got mixed feelings about reopening the Fairwater-Creigiau link. Certainly we'd benefit from having more trains through our stations (I make a lot of use of Fairwater station and really miss having a Sunday train service!).

Much of the old trackbed to Creigiau survives but demolition of houses in Fairwater to reconnect with the City Line would be unpopular to say the least. However I'm not convinced that trams would be useful on our part of the City Line, especially as it's currently a useful diversion from Radyr to Cardiff for Valleys trains when the other route via Llandaf is affected. Also the coal trains to Aberthaw use this section twice a day.

On balance I think the route up from Pontyclun using the remnant track to Llantrisant and then extending up to Beddau would be better.

Agreed. Reopening old lines is problematic full stop - the Creigiau route would involve the demolition of houses, a bridge over the M4 and A473. The business case is much stronger via Pontyclun (I think).

 

[Buttsy]

This is probably pie-in-the-sky thinking from a non-local, but if you took the line from Pontyclun along its old route to the south of Church Village and at Tonteg, cross the A473 to make a south facing junction with the Taff Vale line it would allow a Pontyclun - Cardiff service serving the relevant places and not affect the main line by using the bay at Pontyclun.

Providing there are decent connections at Pontyclun towards Cardiff, you give the opportunity of a quick-ish way into Cardiff changing there and also a through service for those less time-conscious.

I have noted that there is a fair bit of building that has occured on this route between Beddau and Tonteg and that a total new build would be required at Tonteg, so it wouldn't be a cheap option, but could possibly provide greater benefits than just opening the line from Pontyclun to Beddau.

If there were a path or two on the mainline, the service could be operated as a circle.

 

[Cardiffian]

Agreed. Reopening old lines is problematic full stop - the Creigiau route would involve the demolition of houses, a bridge over the M4 and A473. The business case is much stronger via Pontyclun (I think).

Most of the trackbed from Pontyclun to the outskirts of Beddau looks intact. If Google satellite is to be believed, a fair bit of track remains in place, including a bit that's embedded in the A473 near the Ely River!

To be fair, most of the old Taff Vale trackbed to Creigiau is accessible apart from the Fairwater junction. It could just run as far as the M4 and a new station built by the motorway (as has been suggested near Coryton). It might still be a possibility if the house owners in the way of the Fairwater reconnection could be compensated. The area will also lose a woodland footpath too (on the trackbed behind Fairwater leisure centre) but frankly most of it is very overgrown these days.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Most of the trackbed from Pontyclun to the outskirts of Beddau looks intact. If Google satellite is to be believed, a fair bit of track remains in place, including a bit that's embedded in the A473 near the Ely River!

The trackbed is severed in one place - at Gwaunmiskin, but there is plenty of room for a bridge to be placed instead of the embankment which is there at the moment. That was RCT's decision, to save a bit of cash on the Church Village by pass. Apart from that its all still there, but the Beddau end is heavily overgrown with trees growing out of the remaining track!

 

[rf_ioliver]

Most of the trackbed from Pontyclun to the outskirts of Beddau looks intact. If Google satellite is to be believed, a fair bit of track remains in place, including a bit that's embedded in the A473 near the Ely River!

To be fair, most of the old Taff Vale trackbed to Creigiau is accessible apart from the Fairwater junction. It could just run as far as the M4 and a new station built by the motorway (as has been suggested near Coryton). It might still be a possibility if the house owners in the way of the Fairwater reconnection could be compensated. The area will also lose a woodland footpath too (on the trackbed behind Fairwater leisure centre) but frankly most of it is very overgrown these days.

The track from Pontyclun to Beddau is "intact" except for the breach at Gwaunmisgyn and the connection to the mainline at Pontyclun.

From the junction just east of Cross-inn via Rhiwsaeson and Creigau to Fairwater is all available except for some housing at Fairwater.

From St.Fagans via Creigau to Efail Isaf is avialable. There's housing at Efail Isaf unfortunately but continuing north to Tonteg is possible. From Tonteg to Trefforest similarly. However the bypass at Tonteg is a major issue, but that could be potentially bridged - that's more of a political problem than engineering

The line from Tonteg via Church Village onwards to Cross-Inn however is all lost between Church Village and Llantwit Faedre.

A link between the two lines (LLTVJR and Barry lines) existed at Creigau for a few years in the 19th century.

Given the political will it would be possible to build a Y- from Creigau to Tonteg and Trefforest, and also via Cross-Inn to Pontyclun, with a branch to Beddau. The next question then is how you go south from Creigau - via St.Ffagans or Fairwater?

Regrettably, it is all politics rather than engineering....

t.

Ian

 

[Tumbleweed]

The track from Pontyclun to Beddau is "intact" except for the breach at Gwaunmisgyn and the connection to the mainline at Pontyclun.

From the junction just east of Cross-inn via Rhiwsaeson and Creigau to Fairwater is all available except for some housing at Fairwater.

From St.Fagans via Creigau to Efail Isaf is avialable. There's housing at Efail Isaf unfortunately but continuing north to Tonteg is possible. From Tonteg to Trefforest similarly. However the bypass at Tonteg is a major issue, but that could be potentially bridged - that's more of a political problem than engineering

The line from Tonteg via Church Village onwards to Cross-Inn however is all lost between Church Village and Llantwit Faedre.

A link between the two lines (LLTVJR and Barry lines) existed at Creigau for a few years in the 19th century.

Given the political will it would be possible to build a Y- from Creigau to Tonteg and Trefforest, and also via Cross-Inn to Pontyclun, with a branch to Beddau. The next question then is how you go south from Creigau - via St.Ffagans or Fairwater?

Regrettably, it is all politics rather than engineering....

t.

Ian

Everything is possible, but whether the political will is there is another matter. It would be excellent if the above could happen.