Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[sprinterguy]

Persoanlly, if this scheme actually "flies" and produces 75 more trains, then that can only be a good thing since we are surely extremely short of trains.

Unless someone decides that they can scrap 95 other trains.......

Presumably, the thought behind these new trains is that they will replace the class 142 Pacers, which are not expected to be made DDA compliant, and, indeed, it would be impractical to do so given the range of high patronage duties that this large fleet currently performs.

At least some of this fleet (15 x 142s and 15 x 143s - The latter could be refurbished and sent to Northern to replace 142s there as an interim measure) will be replaced by Valley Lines electrification, so with a potential total of 75 x 3-car trains you would still expect to see an overall increase in capacity across the network.

 

[northwichcat]

At least some of this fleet (15 x 142s and 15 x 143s - The latter could be refurbished and sent to Northern to replace 142s there as an interim measure) will be replaced by Valley Lines electrification, so with a potential total of 75 x 3-car trains you would still expect to see an overall increase in capacity across the network.

If the 143s are made complaint ATW could hang on to them and use them doubled up on:

Wrexham-Bidston (3 diagrams)
Crewe-Chester (1 diagram)
Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog (1 diagram)
Shrewsbury-Crewe stopper (1 diagram)

Doubled up that's 12 units in service and 3 for maintenance/spares.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would how easy (that should probably be read as costly) it would be to rip out a cab end from each set of 143s and install a gangway between them to make a permanently coupled four-car set which you can walk through?

 

[northwichcat]

I would how easy (that should probably be read as costly) it would be to rip out a cab end from each set of 143s and install a gangway between them to make a permanently coupled four-car set which you can walk through?

One rail magazine were reporting Porterbrook were looking at an option like that whereby the 143s and 144s would be turned in to 23 x 4 car trains, with the 10 left over carriages being scrapped.

I imagine it'll depend how the cost of removing the cabs compares to accessible retention toilets.

 

[Emyr]

Converting cab-carriages into additional centre carriages? Seems plausible, might even avoid creating a new class, so long as you can get matching parts for the connections.

When you double up a Pacer, are there differences between how the driving cab controls its normal second carriage, versus the second carriage of the additional unit?

i.e From a control perspective, does the second unit become part of the first unit's systems, with the second unit's control systems not participating, or is the second unit a slave to the first, with the first unit's commands relayed through the second's controls?

Following on from that, would the limits on multiple working remain consistent as a number-of-carriages or a number-of-units?

 

[northwichcat]

Following on from that, would the limits on multiple working remain consistent as a number-of-carriages or a number-of-units?

Presumably that would remain at 8 carriages, which might be why in the proposal I described it's for 23 x 4 car trains and not 13 x 4 car and 10 x 5 car. A 5 car Pacer is slightly shorter than a 4 car 150 so I won't imagine the idea to not have any is due to platform constraints.

 

[Wolfie]

If the 143s are made complaint ATW could hang on to them and use them doubled up on:

Wrexham-Bidston (3 diagrams)
Crewe-Chester (1 diagram)
Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog (1 diagram)
Shrewsbury-Crewe stopper (1 diagram)

Doubled up that's 12 units in service and 3 for maintenance/spares.

They could but, in terms of fleet commonality and logistics, moving all of the 143/144s to one operator (rationally Northern/its successor) for the remainder (presumably pretty short!) of their operating life makes some sense - no I am not just saying dump all of the rubbish on Northern!

 

[northwichcat]

They could but, in terms of fleet commonality and logistics, moving all of the 143/144s to one operator (rationally Northern/its successor) for the remainder (presumably pretty short!) of their operating life makes some sense - no I am not just saying dump all of the rubbish on Northern!

That assumes one area of the Northern franchise has all the Pacers and one depot maintains them all. If you're going to have some Pacers in the North East, some in Cumbria, some in Lincolnshire and some in Lancashire it could be worse than having 2 different operators operating Pacers.

You could say for fleet consistency:
* FGW takes on all the 143s.
* FGW releases all their 153s and 4 x 150s
* LM take on the 4 x 150s FGW released and release their 153s.
* EMT takes on all the 144s and release all their 153s and 3 x 156s.
* Anglia take on the released 156s and release their 153s.
* Northern release 4 x 158s to ATW who release their 153s.
* Northern take on the released 153s which are reformed in to 155s.

Then Northern have all the 155s, FGW have all the 143s and EMT have all the 144s with the number of micro-fleets significantly reduced.

 

[Wolfie]

That assumes one area of the Northern franchise has all the Pacers and one depot maintains them all. If you're going to have some Pacers in the North East, some in Cumbria, some in Lincolnshire and some in Lancashire it could be worse than having 2 different operators operating Pacers.

You could say for fleet consistency:
* FGW takes on all the 143s.
* FGW releases all their 153s and 4 x 150s
* LM take on the 4 x 150s FGW released and release their 153s.
* EMT takes on all the 144s and release all their 153s and 3 x 156s.
* Anglia take on the released 156s and release their 153s.
* Northern release 4 x 158s to ATW who release their 153s.
* Northern take on the released 153s which are reformed in to 155s.

Then Northern have all the 155s, FGW have all the 143s and EMT have all the 144s with the number of micro-fleets significantly reduced.

There is a certain logic in your proposals although, given that the only Pacer type not mentioned, the 142s, are the one's most likely to be scrapped first it does rather seem that your primary motivation is leaving Northern with no Pacers! Surely the North, which was the home of Leyland, should have an affinity with them!

There are known historical reasons why FGW have limited use for Pacers and the internal cascade of 165s/166s will mean the only area of FGW they could be used is exactly where problems arose before.

LM use many of their 153s to augment two car 170s, something which wouldn't be possible with a two car 150. Similarly Anglia have limited use for 156s...

It does rather seem that because Northern have at times used the "wrong" type of train on a particular service you want other TOCs to have to do the same.

Disregading any practical operational objections, and of course economics (the trains going into Northern would likely cost MUCH more to lease and operate) the logistics of such a mammoth move are complicated and even more so as different ROSCOs own proportions of the different types.

Finally, how long before Northern users started howling at having all of the 155s (perhaps not coincidentally another train with Leyland links) given they allegedly have structural problems.... old junk that should be scrapped etc again!

 

[northwichcat]

There is a certain logic in your proposals although, given that the only Pacer type not mentioned, the 142s, are the one's most likely to be scrapped first it does rather seem that your primary motivation is leaving Northern with no Pacers!

Angel Trains have no plans to keeping the 142s in service beyond 2019. Porterbrook have come up with a possibility which will make the 143s and 144s ideal as 153 replacement. (Porterbrook have also said making the 153s accessible in single carriage formation is a non-starter.) Hence, why I didn't mention 142s in my earlier post and said the 153s should all to go one operator and be reformed in to 155s. As Northern have 18 x 153s and 7 x 155s they seem the most logical destination for 155s.

Surely the North, which was the home of Leyland, should have an affinity with them!

Only the 142s, 153s and 155s had British Leyland involvement. As the 142s should be scrapped before the end of 2019 the cascade proposal I suggested sends all the remaining British Leyland trains north

The 144s were built by BREL Derby and Walter Alexander (Falkirk) - they don't belong in the North!

It does rather seem that because Northern have at times used the "wrong" type of train on a particular service you want other TOCs to have to do the same.
...
LM use many of their 153s to augment two car 170s

Well you're giving an example of why 153s are wrong for LM. Putting a 75mph 153 on to a 100mph 2 car 170 limits without corridor connections is hardly ideal. It sounds like ideally LM need to swap some of their 2 car 170s for 3 car 170s but of course it's well proven that 2 car Sprinters with corridor connectors can be reformed in to 3 car Sprinters.

 

[bnm]

Chancellor George Osbourne has said in his autumn statement that the new Northern franchise will include provision for new and modern rolling stock to replace Pacers.

From the BBC:

Autumn Statement: New trains for northern rail routes

Investment in new rolling stock for rail franchises in the north of England has been announced by the government.

The move is part of Chancellor George Osborne's ambition to create a northern economic "powerhouse".

It means the Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine Express routes will see the current "pacer" trains replaced with new and modern vehicles.

Mr Osborne said in his Autumn Statement announcement that the current rolling stock was "ancient and unpopular".

Pacer trains were built between 1980 and 1987, and were originally intended a short-term solution to a shortage of rolling stock, but remain in use today.

The Northern Rail franchise covers a large swathe of the north, operating both commuter and some longer routes from the north-west of England across to the north-east of the country.

Its services also extend to the midland counties of Derbyshire, Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire, and Staffordshire.

The Trans-Pennine Express service runs regular inter-city services between major cities in the north of England as well as to the Scottish central belt area.

In 2013 the franchises carried more than 110 million passengers, connecting the key strategic cities of Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester and Newcastle, and onwards to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The franchises to run the two northern routes are going through their renewal process, with the winning bidders being announced by October 2015.

It had been thought there might also be some announcement from Mr Osborne on rail fares during the Autumn Statement, but there was no new development.

In September, it had been announced that regulated fares in England, which include season tickets and "anytime" singles, would rise by a maximum of 2.5% from January.

That was the level of Retail Price Index (RPI) inflation this summer. Normally the fares increase cap would be RPI plus 1%.

That should put to bed the idea of D stock being converted for use on non electrified lines in the north. I do wonder sometimes at the blind faith people put into Roger Ford's words. All he appeared to be doing was giving a bit of free advertising to Vivarail despite them having no firm order for their speculative punt on converted 'D' stock. Mr Shooter et al could be left with an expensive pile of scrap.

 

[eastwestdivide]

From the Autumn Statement itself, via the PDF file at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/382327/44695_Accessible.pdf
at point 1.192 (my italics):

The new franchises, subject to business case development, will: deliver at least a 20% increase in capacity to reduce overcrowding; include new Rolling Stock fit for the 21st century; encourage bidders to replace the outdated pacer trains with modern, better quality trains; bring all the trains that remain up to modern standards; provide additional services across the network

and at 2.203

The government will publish the Invitations to Tender for the Northern and TransPennine rail franchises in early 2015, and will specify a substantial package of upgrades including new services and modern trains in order to phase out the outdated Pacer trains

which say slightly different things, "encourage" in the first and "in order to phase out" in the second.

 

[Via Bank]

This is assuming the 'new' trains Osborne is planning aren't, in fact, Vivarail ex-D stock units!

 

[hwl]

Modern better quality trains probably includes 319s and viva rail refurbished D stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Modern better quality trains probably includes 319s and viva rail refurbished D stock.

Other possibilities are:
1. Cascaded 170s from Scotrail
2. Cascaded 185s from TPE*
3. Cascaded 158s from EMT as a result of TPE taking over Liverpool-Nottingham and using 185s released from TPE
4. Cascaded 15xs from FGW or ATW released by electrification.

* Although if Northern take over Doncaster-Cleethorpes, Barrow, Windermere and Scarborough from TPE then they'll be taking over lines which currently see class 185 operation.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Other possibilities are:
1. Cascaded 170s from Scotrail
2. Cascaded 185s from TPE*
3. Cascaded 158s from EMT as a result of TPE taking over Liverpool-Nottingham and using 185s released from TPE
4. Cascaded 15xs from FGW or ATW released by electrification.

* Although if Northern take over Doncaster-Cleethorpes, Barrow, Windermere and Scarborough from TPE then they'll be taking over lines which currently see class 185 operation.

If no new trains have been ordered and these cascades are being used as a 'Christmas present' before the election despite nothing changing from what might happen anyway. Some people will think new trains are in line for them thanks to the Con-Dem coalition.

 

[andyb2706]

According to the BBC website George Osborne stated new trains for Northern to replace the Pacers during his Autumn Statement. So is the rumours of new DMU's finally confirmed.

Also is it purely a DMU order or a mixture of DMU and EMU due to the ongoing electrification?

 

[Bantamzen]

No, no, no, no guys! The Chancellor says we will get new stock. Not cascaded & refurbed stock, not 25+ year old, 62mph max D-Stock with new seats & engines slung underneath, not 101s or similar from heritage lines with a bit of Freebze applied, not old Optare buses superglued onto freight bogies (or a now very rare Leyland National), brand new shiny stock complete with air conditioning, doors that work and are wide enough, enough seating for more than a couple of dozen passengers & brand new train smell (and yes we'll be able to tell the difference!). Otherwise we'll skweem & skween until we're really sick.....

Seriously though, for all the rail enthusiasm & accountant minded acceptance of the idea of the D-Train, how do you imagine that this idea would be received up in the Northern franchise area? Well the answer is pretty easy, go and stand at any station in the South East and shout the following statement:

"The new trains we are getting are actually quarter decade old London Unnderground ones, re-engineered to keep running on your routes for another 15-20 years providing they can be maintained that long....!"

Now having scarpered pretty quickly (and probably never able to use that station again), take the average response & you have your answer as to how that will be received in Northern England. Yes I know they will probably be a cheaper option in the short term, but they are no more than that. 30 or 40 years from now there will still be un-electrified lines the length and breadth of the country, and the D-Trains simply ain't going to last that long. So surely it makes sense to re-develop a long term strategy for these routes, and start planning a new stock order from one or two suppliers maximum so that these units can then be re-deployed as required anywhere in the country as the electrification programme spreads.

It's all very well pinning your hopes on going to Honest John's Super Reconditioned Train Shop to try and keep costs down, but sooner or later they are going to fall apart and you are still left with the need for new stock. Is it better to keep replacing old stock with more old stock, or bite the bullet and get brand new stuff that can be designed, configured & built to the needs of now and in the future, rather than yesterday and last century?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, no, no, no guys! The Chancellor says we will get new stock.

It says the North will get new stock. It says the Pacers will be replaced by more modern stock. The two statements are not necessarily connected, and given that Northern is heavily short of capacity they may well not be.

So it could be D78 for Pacer replacement and a growth build of other DMUs or EMUs. More likely perhaps EMUs?

Neil

 

[deltic08]

According to the BBC website George Osborne stated new trains for Northern to replace the Pacers during his Autumn Statement. So is the rumours of new DMU's finally confirmed.

Also is it purely a DMU order or a mixture of DMU and EMU due to the ongoing electrification?

He has probably been briefed about a nice new CHEAP Pacer replacement on the horizon called a Diesel78 or something.

Manchester was mentioned so many times you would think he had some kind of connection with the city.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the BBC website George Osborne stated new trains for Northern to replace the Pacers during his Autumn Statement. So is the rumours of new DMU's finally confirmed.
Also is it purely a DMU order or a mixture of DMU and EMU due to the ongoing electrification?

This thread could last beyond 2020!

I think you are reading too much into what has been said/reported.
Basically, the new 2016 franchise will be expected to phase out Pacers.
What they get replaced by is not certain (it's up to the franchise bidders).
Quite possibly it means TPE getting new EMUs and cascading DMUs to Northern, who will also get more 319s for an internal DMU cascade.
It will be at least a year before a plan (in the winning bid) is confirmed.

 

[northwichcat]

Another Pacer thread where the Chancellor is only really saying the same thing as David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Claire Perry have said in recent months?

 

[Chris125]

No, no, no, no guys! The Chancellor says we will get new stock.

Not for replacing Pacers he hasn't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Another Pacer thread where the Chancellor is only really saying the same thing as David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Claire Perry have said in recent months?

I think the difference is that it confirms the DfT has persuaded the Treasury that the increased leasing charges for the replacement stock has been agreed.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not for replacing Pacers he hasn't.

Taken from BBC site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30311722

Investment in new rolling stock for rail franchises in the north of England has been announced by the government.

The move is part of Chancellor George Osborne's ambition to create a northern economic "powerhouse".

It means the Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine Express routes will see the current "pacer" trains replaced with new and modern vehicles.

Sorry but if expect people to accept new & modern vehicles as actually the proposed refurbed D-Stock, then you are mistaken. New and modern does not mean old frame with a few new bits bolted on. If they really are to be the mainstay of the Pacer replacements there will be a chuffing riot!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry but if expect people to accept new & modern vehicles as actually the proposed refurbed D-Stock, then you are mistaken. New and modern does not mean old frame with a few new bits bolted on. If they really are to be the mainstay of the Pacer replacements there will be a chuffing riot!

New and modern can mean (new vehicles) && (modern vehicles).

If refurbished, the D78s could be the latter.

Neil

 

[tbtc]

According to the BBC website George Osborne stated new trains for Northern to replace the Pacers during his Autumn Statement. So is the rumours of new DMU's finally confirmed

There are several parts of the story.

Looking at the actual text of what he said (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/a...rge-osborne-s-speech-in-full-133002735.html):

I can confirm today that we will tender for new franchises for Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express – replacing the ancient and unpopular pacer carriages with new and modern trains

(note the way that he's subtly combined the two franchises so that "new trains" and "Pacer replacement" are mentioned in the same breath, even though they be unrelated)

There will be new franchises for both Northern and TPE (we knew this)

There will be new trains (strongly suspected for TPE, on top of the ten that they've just received)

There will be "modern" trains (a 319 is a more modern train when compared to a 142 that it's replacing)

The fact that Northern will probably take on some existing TPE routes (there's different chances of Scarborough, Barrow, Blackpool, Cleethorpes, Middlesbrough and Windermere, but at least some of them look likely) means that Northern may get "modern" stock if it just receives some of the 185s currently used to run this services (e.g. a Blackpool - Burnley - Leeds - York - Scarborough/ Middlesbrough service could be run by 185s, this wouldn't be any more modern for Scarborough/ Middlesbrough than they currently get, but would be more "modern" for Northern)

Pacers will be replaced during the new franchises? Yes, looks likely. But the new franchise won't start till 2016, so will run into the 2020s, meaning replacing the final Pacers in 2023 would still comply with Osborne's definition - doesn't mean anything'll happen any time soon, doesn't change my long term expectations.

That's not to say that it's bad news - the fact that Pacers get a mention at the Autumn Statement shows how high up the agenda they are (I don't remember any Gordon Brown Budgets discussing 142s!), but I don't think that today's news changes anything and I still don't think that we'll see any new pure DMUs built any time soon (ignoring converted London Underground stock or bi-mode trains).

Essentially, it's a clever announcement from the Chancellor that sounds like a promise but doesn't really amount to much (remember his previous announcement that sounded like electrification of the Hope Valley line, when he'd just mentioned "electrification" of some other lines and "Hope Valley" in the same sentence and we jumped to conclusions?).

The bigger problem is what Osborne didn't say today (despite the expectations hat we'd see other rail commitments - be that electrification to Hull, reopening the Okehampton line, Barking...)

 

[Haydn1971]

So it could be D78 for Pacer replacement and a growth build of other DMUs or EMUs. More likely perhaps EMUs?

Given the way old funding have been re-announced on the highways package, I'd expect that to be pretty much the case.

TPE gets new EMU's on the Newcastle-York-Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool core route and possibly more for the WCML services - previously promised money

Northern gets cascaded modernised DMU's via cascaded express type units (EMT 222's perhaps) displacing 156/8/9's elsewhere in the country or even a triple cascade of 222's displacing 156/8/9's to routes currently with 150/3 etc - IC225's on MML cost next to nothing to redeploy but free up 222's, gradual refurbs via ITA funding pots.

Northern to also get some more cascaded modernised EMU's - again, next to nothing costs for cascaded 319 or similar units, with gradual refurbs via ITA funding pots.

D78's ? I see these having uses across the UK as a stop gap for the next decade, not for major commuter routes.

 

[Murph]

It's all very well pinning your hopes on going to Honest John's Super Reconditioned Train Shop to try and keep costs down, but sooner or later they are going to fall apart and you are still left with the need for new stock. Is it better to keep replacing old stock with more old stock, or bite the bullet and get brand new stuff that can be designed, configured & built to the needs of now and in the future, rather than yesterday and last century?

Yes, it is better to cascade old stock until more or less the maximum possible value has been extracted from it. One very simple reason, and the only reason which matters: money in the pocket of the British public.

Where does the money come from for new trains? In the long term, big picture, it does not come from any of the following: ROSCOs, TOCs, banks, or investors with deep pockets. It only ever comes from two places, the pockets of the British travelling public and/or taxpayers. No matter where the short term cash comes from to actually place the orders, that's only a temporary situation, a loan with interest, before it comes from the true source of the pockets of the British public.

So, are you ready to get your cheque book out? How badly do you really want to have a shiny new train, rather than making the most of what's available in the big picture nationwide?

Yes, there does come a point in time where any rolling stock starts to be uneconomic for continued use, due to the cost of keeping it in usable condition. Replacing (i.e. scrapping and buying new, not cascading) any of it before it reaches that point (other than in truly exceptional circumstances), is damaging to your financial health. Every extra year of good service that can be squeezed out of existing stock is directly beneficial to the nation.

Edit: Oh yeah, and don't take anything that a politician says at face value. There's plenty of ways for them to spin remanufactured D78s as "new and modern".

 

[northwichcat]

How badly do you really want to have a shiny new train, rather than making the most of what's available in the big picture nationwide?

There's no guarantee Pacers or even 150s will be able to stay in service as long as DfT are hoping.

We were promised by John Major's government in 1994 that all trains would be accessible by the end of 2019. Why should disabled people suffer longer? And why should disabled people in the North suffer for longer than in other parts of Britain?