Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[northwichcat]

with Huddersfield losing the direct Sheffield and Meadowhall service.

I think Huddersfield should have a direct service to both Meadowhall and Sheffield but that could be via a semi-fast service opposed to an all-stops service.

 

[Grimsby town]

Having read about these trains, I think they could be useful in places. Cleethorpes for example could have 4 or 5 based to run an hourly service on the Barton line and provide a service on the Brigg line. Both of these lines only need 60mph trains.

They could also be used for Sheffield to Retford stoppers, the Whitby line, Bishop Auckland services among others. They could have some use in Cornwall and Devon as well.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Having read about these trains, I think they could be useful in places. Cleethorpes for example could have 4 or 5 based to run an hourly service on the Barton line and provide a service on the Brigg line. Both of these lines only need 60mph trains.

They could also be used for Sheffield to Retford stoppers, the Whitby line, Bishop Auckland services among others. They could have some use in Cornwall and Devon as well.

Good idea. Also the mainline to Scunthorpe is slow enough for 60mph running. Do you think the Newark route would be better these trains as they have more capacity? I think the disused platforms at Cleethorpes should be reopened at least for train storage.

 

[route:oxford]

Is there anyone still alive who worked on the original design of these units?

I'm starting to wonder if they were an early modular design by a forward thinking engineer who was mindful of a requirement by the early 80s for new units to replace legacy DMUs.

 

[21C101]

Is there anyone still alive who worked on the original design of these units?

I'm starting to wonder if they were an early modular design by a forward thinking engineer who was mindful of a requirement by the early 80s for new units to replace legacy DMUs.

But for the pacers I suspect quite a lot of northern routes would have shut in the early '80s.

They are basically a leyland national bus body on a 4 wheel chassis. They even had standard leyland national bus seats when first in service, maybe they still do.

 

[cav1975]

As they are 13" lower than standard NR stock I wonder if they could be used in the Isle of Wight. According to the website below Ryde tunnel is only 10" too low for standard NR stock:

Source: http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/IsleOfWight/

The Isle of wight must be the only place in the world where the preserved railway has newer stock than the main line service it connects with!

The Isle of Wight Steam Railway’s carriages date from between 1864 & 1924, so are comfortably older than the main line’s 1938 stock. Some of the Steam Railway’s locos do date from the 1950s and there are also some 1965 vintage ex-LT ballast wagons, but the carriages are the winners.

On the D78 conversions, I do think that is an excellent idea and wish Vivarail all the best with their project. D78s today are comfortable to travel on and accelerate smoothly. I’m sure that a well-engineered conversion will find plenty of uses. Blaenau Ffestiniog – Llandudno?

 

[deltic08]

The 139s have a top speed below that but they are an exception.



If you said by the end of CP6 (April 2024) then I'd agree.

I suspect there might have been talks between Metro and Vivarail regarding these trains. The route examined is Huddersfield-Sheffield while the mockup includes an orange logo with a M logo on it which looks identical to the M on the Metro logo. Possibly that should be red and the image hasn't been saved correctly for web or possibly it's been edited (badly) to make try and disguise the images were produced for Metro.

Oh please. I said train. 139s are trams.

Metro was responsible for ordering 141s so it may happen.
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On any line with freight stock won't be moving at a minimum of 75mph.

Neil

Only loaded coal, biomass hoppers and oil tanks are limited to 60mph. Everything else runs at 75mph.
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Yeh and how much do the stoppers on these routes actually run at that speed, as for both routes being electrified by 2020 dream on.

According to the MP for Harrogate, who is a member of the panel deciding the next tranche of electrification, if Harrogate is chosen work will start in 2019 as soon as Harrogate-York resignalling planned for 2018 is finished.

 

[edwin_m]

Only loaded coal, biomass hoppers and oil tanks are limited to 60mph. Everything else runs at 75mph.

Most non-intermodal freight runs at 60mph maximum (class 6) with the major exception of empty coal trains which are allowed 75mph as mentioned.

 

[Jonny]

Am I right in thinking that the D78 stock has small (770mm diameter) wheels? http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/rollingstock.htm says that this is the case. I presume that this would be speed-limiting.

 

[andyb2706]

But for the pacers I suspect quite a lot of northern routes would have shut in the early '80s.

They are basically a leyland national bus body on a 4 wheel chassis. They even had standard leyland national bus seats when first in service, maybe they still do.

Some still have the original type of bus seating. Even seatson buses have improved since the pacers were introduced!

 

[northwichcat]

Some still have the original type of bus seating. Even seatson buses have improved since the pacers were introduced!

The majority of the 142s still do. Really the Merseytravel ones are bus seating as well but an experimental type of bus seating which didn't last long.

 

[Grimsby town]

Good idea. Also the mainline to Scunthorpe is slow enough for 60mph running. Do you think the Newark route would be better these trains as they have more capacity? I think the disused platforms at Cleethorpes should be reopened at least for train storage.

I'm not sure either the Scunthorpe line or the Newark line is suitable. They both have speeds of 75mph+ in places and I think I read the linespeed between Barnetby and Scunthorpe is being raised to 75mph after re signalling. I think they are more suited to 158's, which will hopefully be released soon by electrification.

 

[northwichcat]

But for the pacers I suspect quite a lot of northern routes would have shut in the early '80s.

I'm doubtful of that. The Cornish branch lines remained open even when it was found that the Pacers were ordered for them didn't really work on those lines. The 1st gen DMUs returned for a while and then they got 150s and 153s freed up by the introduction of 156s.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm not sure either the Scunthorpe line or the Newark line is suitable. They both have speeds of 75mph+ in places and I think I read the linespeed between Barnetby and Scunthorpe is being raised to 75mph after re signalling. I think they are more suited to 158's, which will hopefully be released soon by electrification.

Difficult to say authoritatively whether a train limited to 60MPH, but possibly with better acceleration, could match 75MPH train timings on any particular route. Assuming we're talking about an all stations stopping service it will depend on station spacing and details of gradients and other localised speed restrictions encountered through junctions, across bridges etc. Are the higher speed units actually travelling at above the lower speed stock's maximum for long enough to offset the better acceleration? Only detailed route specific run simulations or actual test runs could really demonstrate this.

 

[Dstock7080]

Am I right in thinking that the D78 stock has small (770mm diameter) wheels?

D Stock have 788mm diameter wheels.
S Stock have 770mm.

 

[colchesterken]

Here is an idea for the D78 conversion, how about giving up a bit of the saloon and put a bigish moden diesel generator unit in it ( like the Hastings units ) with enough power to run the train and the electrics for the doors etc.at full line speed ie 70 or 75
You would have a relatively cheap go anyware unit ( strip off all the shoe gear of course ) If they put disabled compliant portaloos at all local stations you would not need on board toilets, take out a couple of seats near one door and put in anchors for wheelchairs. there you have it..ready to go..

 

[edwin_m]

It is the bogies and wheelsets that limit the speed, not the engines. I presume if it had been economic to increase the speed then Vivarail would do so as there are obvious benefits, but LU running gear is relatively primitive and the smaller wheels are another reason why it's difficult to run faster.

 

[talltim]

Hum so you want to spatch-cock D-types together at lengths longer than they have ever operated (or were ever designed for)... a plan with no obvious or potential problems NOT...

Is that any more of a strange idea than converting them to DMUs?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

If this D stock can be turned into a nice 'new' diesel train. Was scrapping the old Manchester trams a mistake? Could they have been converted too? And what other trains due for scrap can be re-used?

 

[northwichcat]

Could they have been converted too?

A T68 tram was only slightly longer than a 153 despite being '2 carriages.' Not to mention the 50mph top speed and Pacer like ride quality at higher speeds.

 

[Bantamzen]

If this D stock can be turned into a nice 'new' diesel train. Was scrapping the old Manchester trams a mistake? Could they have been converted too? And what other trains due for scrap can be re-used?

I hope nobody takes a trip to Iran where some of the of the 141s are rusting away.....

 

[Greybeard33]

A T68 tram was only slightly longer than a 153 despite being '2 carriages.' Not to mention the 50mph top speed and Pacer like ride quality at higher speeds.

And the T68s were badly corroded from salt on the roads. And their electronics was obsolete and unreliable....

 

[Wolfie]

And the T68s were badly corroded from salt on the roads. And their electronics was obsolete and unreliable....

..not to mention built by AnsaldoBreda where quality control appears to have been non-existant...

 

[RobShipway]

The more I think about turning the D78's into diesel trains, the more I think that they should be converted into DEMU trains with the ability to travel with diesel or OHLE as I believe that they are the same height and size as Class 313s?

 

[Murph]

The more I think about turning the D78's into diesel trains, the more I think that they should be converted into DEMU trains with the ability to travel with diesel or OHLE as I believe that they are the same height and size as Class 313s?

They are being turned into DEMUs, as they will still be using electric power bogies, not mechanical (as on 1xx DMUs, or DMMUs (DmechanicalMUs)). DEMU doesn't imply anything about being able to run off an external electric supply, only that it's electrical transmission between diesel engine and traction.

Adding alternative OHLE power source to them would be quite possible, at a very large cost, but probably unlikely to be worth it. The 60mph limit on them means that they need to stay away from the major electrified main lines. OHLE isn't necessarily any more green than diesel anyway, as the nationwide electrical supply now has to be supplemented by big diesels (think Valenta-sized, lots of 1-2MW units spun up as required) for peak capacity, due to a lack of capacity in the big generating stations.

 

[Grimsby town]

Difficult to say authoritatively whether a train limited to 60MPH, but possibly with better acceleration, could match 75MPH train timings on any particular route. Assuming we're talking about an all stations stopping service it will depend on station spacing and details of gradients and other localised speed restrictions encountered through junctions, across bridges etc. Are the higher speed units actually travelling at above the lower speed stock's maximum for long enough to offset the better acceleration? Only detailed route specific run simulations or actual test runs could really demonstrate this.

The Newark has long spells without stopping at 75mph. Replacing the Scunthorpe to Sheffield stopper with the D stock could work but the current Cleethorpes to Manchester airport train, even if it is split at Sheffield needs better stock more suited to an express service.

 

[edwin_m]

And the T68s were badly corroded from salt on the roads. And their electronics was obsolete and unreliable....

And they didn't meet the structural standards for use on the national rail network either.

 

[glbotu]

If this D stock can be turned into a nice 'new' diesel train. Was scrapping the old Manchester trams a mistake? Could they have been converted too? And what other trains due for scrap can be re-used?

D-Stock is certified for running alongside mainline trains (between Richmond and Gunnersbury and between East Putney and Wimbledon). Even if this is just grandfather rights, it still applies. They're also structurally closer to mainline trains than trams, which are structurally closer to buses (and would get crushed with any impact).

 

[Harpers Tate]

Persoanlly, if this scheme actually "flies" and produces 75 more trains, then that can only be a good thing since we are surely extremely short of trains.

Unless someone decides that they can scrap 95 other trains.......

 

[northwichcat]

Persoanlly, if this scheme actually "flies" and produces 75 more trains, then that can only be a good thing since we are surely extremely short of trains.

Unless someone decides that they can scrap 95 other trains.......

Idea is 102 Pacers will be withdrawn by Northern during the course of the next franchise. Also 153s may be reformed to 155s reducing flexibility. Electrification alone can't allow wholescale Pacer withdrawal, given the need for extra capacity across the network.