Put the freight on to the rails

[northwichcat]

ITV Granada Reports asked the viewers were asked for their views on the government's road schemes announced today. According to presenter/reporter Rob Smith a lot of people responded saying more should be done to move freight off the roads and on to rail. Could that be just because a lot of rail enthusiasts responded or could it be Joe Public is seeing the advantage in taking big heavy lorries off the road with the amount of congestion and the state the roads are in?

 

[Ash Bridge]

ITV Granada Reports asked the viewers were asked for their views on the government's road schemes announced today. According to presenter/reporter Rob Smith a lot of people responded saying more should be done to move freight off the roads and on to rail. Could that be just because a lot of rail enthusiasts responded or could it be Joe Public is seeing the advantage in taking big heavy lorries off the road with the amount of congestion and the state the roads are in?

Was just wondering if I heard correctly on this mornings TV about the construction of a road tunnel under the Pennines to relieve the snake pass and Woodhead of freight traffic? If this is so why are they not looking at reopening the Woodhead rail route instead?

 

[6Gman]

ITV Granada Reports asked the viewers were asked for their views on the government's road schemes announced today. According to presenter/reporter Rob Smith a lot of people responded saying more should be done to move freight off the roads and on to rail. Could that be just because a lot of rail enthusiasts responded or could it be Joe Public is seeing the advantage in taking big heavy lorries off the road with the amount of congestion and the state the roads are in?

I would suggest a third alternative:

Joe Public doesn't like lorries on the roads and would like to get rid of them, so move it by rail.

But Joe Public doesn't realise that (for the vast majority of such traffic) rail is not a practical. economic option.

 

[northwichcat]

Was just wondering if I heard correctly on this mornings TV about the construction of a road tunnel under the Pennines to relieve the snake pass and Woodhead of freight traffic? If this is so why are they not looking at reopening the Woodhead rail route instead?

Exact words on DfT site:

Trans-Pennine tunnel study
Study of the viability of a tunnel under the Pennines to link Manchester and Sheffield.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-roads-investment-in-the-north-west

Some of the reporting on the BBC about the schemes has been very poor. North West Today apparently referred to the A556 link road as a new Knutsford bypass. Although, you kind of need to route the A50 away from Knutsford to have a bypass!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Exact words on DfT site:



https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-roads-investment-in-the-north-west

Some of the reporting on the BBC about the schemes has been very poor. North West Today apparently referred to the A556 link road as a new Knutsford bypass. Although, you kind of need to route the A50 away from Knutsford to have a bypass!

Yes, sadly that's about par for course regarding the quality (Not) of journalism from the Beeb these days.

 

[Antman]

I would suggest a third alternative:

Joe Public doesn't like lorries on the roads and would like to get rid of them, so move it by rail.

But Joe Public doesn't realise that (for the vast majority of such traffic) rail is not a practical. economic option.

Exactly but they would soon became up in arms it their local shops were not fully stocked or they had to pay more because the goods were delivered by rail

 

[beeza1]

Was just wondering if I heard correctly on this mornings TV about the construction of a road tunnel under the Pennines to relieve the snake pass and Woodhead of freight traffic? If this is so why are they not looking at reopening the Woodhead rail route instead?

The Woodhead rail route now forms part of The Transpennine Trail long distance footpath and cycle route, so I suspect any attempt to reopen it would be met with fierce opposition, not to mention that all the tunnels between Woodhead and Dunford Bridge now carry electric cables, in fact I think construction work is still in progress.
I seem to remember there was talk a few years ago of reopening the tunnel and putting the lorries on to rail wagons but nothing came of it.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Woodhead rail route now forms part of The Transpennine Trail long distance footpath and cycle route, so I suspect any attempt to reopen it would be met with fierce opposition, not to mention that all the tunnels between Woodhead and Dunford Bridge now carry electric cables, in fact I think construction work is still in progress.
I seem to remember there was talk a few years ago of reopening the tunnel and putting the lorries on to rail wagons but nothing came of it.

Yes, I remember that as well, then all went quiet. Then again if the will was there they could probably bore new tunnels similar in loading gauge to those under the channel, if they are going to consider a road tunnel then it must be possible.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Pennines aren't the English Channel. There are ways over and round them. What possible benefit would there be in building rail tunnels through the Pennines with a loading gauge greater than the rest of the country?

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Pennines aren't the English Channel. There are ways over and round them. What possible benefit would there be in building rail tunnels through the Pennines with a loading gauge greater than the rest of the country?

For use as a rolling road to transport LGVs traveling from East Coast ports bound for Greater Manchester, Merseyside etc. thus relieving trans Pennine roads.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why would freight from the east coast ports be going anywhere near Woodhead? Even if it did in the days of just in time deliveries queuing to load onto a train, travelling a few miles and then waiting to unload off the train is not something any logistics company would even consider. It’s the Pennines not the Alps.

 

[Donny Dave]

Was just wondering if I heard correctly on this mornings TV about the construction of a road tunnel under the Pennines to relieve the snake pass and Woodhead of freight traffic? If this is so why are they not looking at reopening the Woodhead rail route instead?

Because quite frankly, re-opening Woodhead does nothing to help the situation as it is now, plus the Woodhead route goes through no towns of note between the cities.

As things are currently, you have the A57 'Snake Pass', which starts in Sheffield City Center, and is quite a slow route, and the A616/A628 'Woodhead Pass' (which does start a few miles further North up the M1), but both these routes converge at Hollingworth and does create horrendous delays (it's not uncommon to be sat for nearly an hour there). The only viable alternative routes involve lengthy detours (M1 and M62 or A61/A621 to Baslow, then the A623 and A6). So from this point of view, I can understand the governments desire to do something about this.

Moving onto lorries now ....

Basically, the vast majority of freight the can be carries economically by rail is already doing so. What's left is basically wagon load at best). Yes you do quite often see convoys of lorries going over the afore mentioned routes, but how many of those share the same origin, and how many share the same destination? My bet is about 2 in 50 ....

Add in the fact that quite a few of those lorries will be on groupage or multi-drop work, IE, delivering (and/or making collections) to quite a few different companies (not always in the same town). For example. 1 driver starts his day my getting his lorry loaded for deliveries in Sheffield, Stockport, Crewe and Warrington, with collections in Wigan, Blackburn and Skipton. These deliveries (and collections) could be as small as 1 average sized box, or be several tall pallets. Now how would that be economical to transport by rail?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I'd be happier to see investment in road improvements if there were some attempt to recover the money spent from hauliers through road pricing. The M6 Toll charges £11 per truck for its 27 miles. Perhaps a similar charge should apply to the A303, for example, to pay for the new tunnels?

If truckers paid their full share of the costs of road building and maintenance they would be much less competitive against rail for bulk and intermodal freight. Witness how few lorries actually use the M6 Toll. They don't like paying!

 

[starrymarkb]

I'd be happier to see investment in road improvements if there were some attempt to recover the money spent from hauliers through road pricing. The M6 Toll charges £11 per truck for its 27 miles. Perhaps a similar charge should apply to the A303, for example, to pay for the new tunnels?

If truckers paid their full share of the costs of road building and maintenance they would be much less competitive against rail for bulk and intermodal freight. Witness how few lorries actually use the M6 Toll. They don't like paying!

The A303 isn't a big truck route anyway, it's mostly tourist traffic that jams it up.

Wonder if National Express for example would switch to the A303 post upgrade, on a good day it's a fair bit quicker then the M5/M4* - on a bad day far slower. So for consistant times NatEx use the M5/M4

Also I'm pretty sure most drivers of any vehicle type won't use the M6 Toll. If the tolls were lower they might consider it, BUT thanks to the PFI it's more profitable for the Toll company to have high tolls and less traffic as they don't need to do as much maintenance. Maybe charging £2 for cars and £5 for trucks would mean the time saving becomes worth it.

*Was diverted that way on my last NatEx trip to London, M5 north shut so all traffic was sent via Honiton we were over an hour down by Ilminster with traffic, but while all the M5 traffic went up the A358, we went A303 all the way and managed to recover enough between there and Heathrow to be just 30 mins down at Heathrow.

 

[JohnB57]

I'd be happier to see investment in road improvements if there were some attempt to recover the money spent from hauliers through road pricing. The M6 Toll charges £11 per truck for its 27 miles. Perhaps a similar charge should apply to the A303, for example, to pay for the new tunnels?

If truckers paid their full share of the costs of road building and maintenance they would be much less competitive against rail for bulk and intermodal freight. Witness how few lorries actually use the M6 Toll. They don't like paying!

So you'd vote for the price of goods in the shops to go up? Every additional pound incurred at the distribution stage is simply passed on to the consumer, usually with an additional financing element.

One thing that many conveniently forget is the massive contribution that road haulage makes to the exchequer in the form of fuel duty. One reason that, thank goodness, we have been able to avoid general road tolls.

 

[edwin_m]

So you'd vote for the price of goods in the shops to go up? Every additional pound incurred at the distribution stage is simply passed on to the consumer, usually with an additional financing element.

One thing that many conveniently forget is the massive contribution that road haulage makes to the exchequer in the form of fuel duty. One reason that, thank goodness, we have been able to avoid general road tolls.

If the hauliers are subject to road pricing the price of goods goes up but (if it's done properly) the hauliers are incentivised to minimise their use of roads, so heavy goods traffic will reduce.

If the money is raised from general taxation we all get to pay for it anyway, just via our taxes rather than via higher prices. But the hauliers will use the roads more if that reduces their total costs, so the result will be more congestion and more need for spending on roads than otherwise.

 

[tbtc]

Despite the headlines, the "easiest" way to solve the A628 problems isn't in the Peak District, it's the bottlenecks on the western side of the hills - the problems between the end of the M67 and Tintwistle.

A Hollingworth by-pass would be a much better plan - no need to build in the sensitive Peak District, no need for an expensive tunnel. I've never been in any traffic jam in the Woodhead area, but I'd struggle to remember getting from Tintwistle to the M67 without some snarl up around Mottram.

Obviously a tunnel is more of a headline grabbing move, but it'd just get you into the Hollingworth/ Mottram gridlock (where the A57 and A6018 junctions are) faster without tackling that bigger problem.

I would suggest a third alternative:

Joe Public doesn't like lorries on the roads and would like to get rid of them, so move it by rail.

But Joe Public doesn't realise that (for the vast majority of such traffic) rail is not a practical. economic option.

That's it in a nutshell.

The Great British Public want any scheme that'll take other people's vehicles off the road (with the assumption that prices in shops won't rise because of this).

The Great British Public want any scheme that'll free up more road space for them (public transport is a great idea... for other people!).

all the tunnels between Woodhead and Dunford Bridge now carry electric cables

If you wanted to build a road tunnel under the Pennines then I wouldn't slavishly follow the old British Rail route.

Since most of the road traffic will be heading from the "Lancashire" side of the hills towards Sheffield/ East Midlands (rather than north up towards Leeds/ Hull, which would use the M62 to cross the Pennines), the best route would come out in the Langsett valley (rather than the Dunford Bridge/ Penistone valley) - the Little Don valley rather than the Don Valley in local terms - so that you are joining the M1 at J35A rather than at J37.

Even better, build it to Stocksbridge (where the current "fast" sections of road end), which'd leave the road through Langsett for more cyclists!

 

[Haydn1971]

Re the A628, when I worked at Derbyshire back in 2003, I got talking over drawings from the 80's for crawler lanes and bend improvements for the western side of the route between Tintwistle and Saddlers Bridge, essentially making the bends comfortably negotiable by HGV's at 40mph and creating places for faster vehicles to pass with ease - just as much of the eastern side is. Sadly plans never progressed and became a relic in a bottom drawer. I've often said that the A628 doesn't need to be a motorway or dual carriageway all the way, but with some sensible improvements, including a bypass of the villages approaching the M67, improving M60 J24, fixing Westwood Roundabout, adding the crawler lanes, slackening the bends would make a huge difference

 

[RichmondCommu]

Re the A628, when I worked at Derbyshire back in 2003, I got talking over drawings from the 80's for crawler lanes and bend improvements for the western side of the route between Tintwistle and Saddlers Bridge, essentially making the bends comfortably negotiable by HGV's at 40mph and creating places for faster vehicles to pass with ease - just as much of the eastern side is. Sadly plans never progressed and became a relic in a bottom drawer. I've often said that the A628 doesn't need to be a motorway or dual carriageway all the way, but with some sensible improvements, including a bypass of the villages approaching the M67, improving M60 J24, fixing Westwood Roundabout, adding the crawler lanes, slackening the bends would make a huge difference

Sorry for being way off topic here. Did you ever hear anything about the A38 through Derby and the issues with the three islands? Just wondering!

 

[Haydn1971]

In what way ? I was involved in discussions back in the late 90's, Derby was another one of those, must fix, never got the money jobs sadly - I believe plans are still being developed but given there has been talk for 30 years, I wouldn't hold my breath on them being grade separated anytime soon.

 

[northwichcat]

I would suggest a third alternative:

Joe Public doesn't like lorries on the roads and would like to get rid of them, so move it by rail.

But Joe Public doesn't realise that (for the vast majority of such traffic) rail is not a practical. economic option.

But are there options for moving road freight on to the rails?

In Munich BMW transport a lot of cars by rail, quite often using freight trains which contain other items which aren't in any way related to BMW. Over here Bentley build their cars in a factory right next to a railway line in Crewe and one place they display/sell them is in a showroom next to a railway line in Knutsford, yet they send numerous lorries every day between Crewe and Knutsford.

 

[Antman]

I'd be happier to see investment in road improvements if there were some attempt to recover the money spent from hauliers through road pricing. The M6 Toll charges £11 per truck for its 27 miles. Perhaps a similar charge should apply to the A303, for example, to pay for the new tunnels?

If truckers paid their full share of the costs of road building and maintenance they would be much less competitive against rail for bulk and intermodal freight. Witness how few lorries actually use the M6 Toll. They don't like paying!

I think you'll find it is their employers that don't like paying and any costs they do incur will inevitably be passed on to the consumer in one way or another

 

[starrymarkb]

I think you'll find it is their employers that don't like paying and any costs they do incur will inevitably be passed on to the consumer in one way or another

Yep, because the M6 Toll is too expensive, the toll is more then the extra fuel and driver's wages used on the old 'slow' M6.

If you want to clear the M6 through Birmingham of trucks make the M6 Toll free for trucks (while still charging for cars etc) - Similar to how the Dublin Port Tunnel works (to take trucks away from the city centre they are not charged. Car Tolls are very high though)

 

[GearJammer]

If the hauliers are subject to road pricing the price of goods goes up but (if it's done properly) the hauliers are incentivised to minimise their use of roads, so heavy goods traffic will reduce.

Do you want to stop and think about what you've just said?

Do you think hauliers run trucks up and down the country just for the pure fun of it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the only thing that threads like this demonstrate with any certainty is that 99% of people have no bloody clue how distribution works, the costs involved, how transport works or how there consumables gets to there shop shelves!

After spending my working day punching up and down the roads when I log on and read this c**p I really don't know if to laugh or cry!

 

[Oswyntail]

Slightly Off Topic (and yes, GJ, professing total ignorance) it has often struck me how many hauliers there appear to be. At times it seems every little town has its own local firm. In just about every other service there have been amalgamations into large, national companies, but not trucking. To me, this suggests that the industry is being protected from the economic pressures that affected other firms. Is this the case? Or what is the reason for the continued splintering? (Or is it the case that there are large agglomerates, imply locally badged?)

 

[deltic]

So you'd vote for the price of goods in the shops to go up? Every additional pound incurred at the distribution stage is simply passed on to the consumer, usually with an additional financing element.

One thing that many conveniently forget is the massive contribution that road haulage makes to the exchequer in the form of fuel duty. One reason that, thank goodness, we have been able to avoid general road tolls.

While not exactly independent commentators there has been some research to show that HGVs are heavily subsidised given the damage they cause to the road network etc eg "New research: Britain’s lorries receiving £5bn annual subsidy" http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/new-research-britain’s-lorries-receiving-£5bn-annual-subsidy

 

[GlosRail]

Local firms offer much more flexibility than the big boys. I can call a lorry into my work at very short notice, sometimes within 15 minutes of making the call it has already turned up and is waiting to load. It helps that the company I use are only based 3 miles away.

Slightly Off Topic (and yes, GJ, professing total ignorance) it has often struck me how many hauliers there appear to be. At times it seems every little town has its own local firm. In just about every other service there have been amalgamations into large, national companies, but not trucking. To me, this suggests that the industry is being protected from the economic pressures that affected other firms. Is this the case? Or what is the reason for the continued splintering? (Or is it the case that there are large agglomerates, imply locally badged?)

 

[Donny Dave]

I think the only thing that threads like this demonstrate with any certainty is that 99% of people have no bloody clue how distribution works, the costs involved, how transport works or how there consumables gets to there shop shelves!

After spending my working day punching up and down the roads when I log on and read this c**p I really don't know if to laugh or cry!

Slightly Off Topic (and yes, GJ, professing total ignorance) it has often struck me how many hauliers there appear to be. At times it seems every little town has its own local firm. In just about every other service there have been amalgamations into large, national companies, but not trucking. To me, this suggests that the industry is being protected from the economic pressures that affected other firms. Is this the case? Or what is the reason for the continued splintering? (Or is it the case that there are large agglomerates, imply locally badged?)

I feel your pain GearJammer ..... The vast majority of goods that is on the roads is either multi-drop/groupage work or wagon loads going for a maximum of 150 miles, neither of which is feasable for going by rail.

Multi-drop is pretty much self explanitory, as in you have several deliveries on 1 trailor/lorry, but groupage is a bit more complex, and tends to originate (and finish the day) at an import/export terminal, such as Immingham. Groupage is several deliveries the start at the same point (either a single warehouse or loads the are imported from abroad), but are often far less than wagon load, and are combined with several collections back to the originating point, more often than not to be combined with other loads for export to A.N.Other country. My dad is a HGV driver, and I myself used to do groupage work, driving a 3.5t van, (so I do have a fairly good insight into the general road haulage industry). You can imaging the size of the loads I was delivering and collecting (I had upto 12 deliveries and collections in a day). All these 'small town hauliers' are trying to make a living for their owners and drivers, and usually have to take what work they can. Firms that can get good rates for a simple 'out and back' run (example, take 1 load from Hull to Liverpool, reload at Wigan and back to Hull) are very much in the minority, as they do have to take on more loads per run, just to pay their way and make a small profit.

Even firms like Tata Steel will not only play the various FOCs of against each other in ortder to get the best rates, the will involve haulage companies in the bidding war as well to get the very best deal they can. A very good example is that they used to pay the firm my dad used to drive for a flat fee of £425 for a wagon load of steel plate from Scunthorpe Steelworks to a customer in Turin. That didn't quite pay for my dad's wages for the week. How was the rest made up, plus the running expenses? Simply put, they had to find companies that were prepared to pay the going rate for a (part) wagon loads of goods that was going in the same general direct as the driver is intending to go, and hope to hell there was another load available in the vicinity of the destination! More often than not , thy had to combine various loads together just to pay the bills and show a small profit (£50-100/week) in order to keep the company going. My dad has since left that company and started at a haulage company that is part of a munafactorig business. While he still does multi-drop work, the aims are similar. IE Make a profit, 1 that covers the drivers wage, the admin staff, the cost of procuring the raw materials and the manufactoring process. Nothing in the road haulage industry is as simple or as easy as it looks.

 

[GearJammer]

While not exactly independent commentators there has been some research to show that HGVs are heavily subsidised given the damage they cause to the road network etc eg "New research: Britain’s lorries receiving £5bn annual subsidy" http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/new-research-britain’s-lorries-receiving-£5bn-annual-subsidy

Philippa Edmunds, 'Freight on Rail Campaigner', 'Campaign for Better Transport' said.....

....said the usual bo77ocks that comes from these people, maybe they should go away and do the same calculations for freight trains?

No don't be silly, won't do that will they.

 

[Donny Dave]

While not exactly independent commentators there has been some research to show that HGVs are heavily subsidised given the damage they cause to the road network etc eg "New research: Britain’s lorries receiving £5bn annual subsidy" http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/new-research-britain’s-lorries-receiving-£5bn-annual-subsidy

Haulage firms to have a lot of cap-ex before just 1 lorry turns a wheel though. Firstly, they have to buy/hire lorries, then (if they are HGVs and not rigids) have to buy (or more usually hire) suitable trailors for the loads they plan to haul. Vehicle Excise Duty then has to be paid on each lorry (several thousand pounds at a time), but before all this, thay have to apply for (and be granted) an O-license, which isn't cheap either. Even a small firm running just 2 lorries can be looking at £100,000 leaving their bank account before 1 of their lorries can turn a wheel. Add in all the other expenses (fuel, maintenance, MOT on both the unit and trailor, wages for the driver, wages for the back office staff (admin, load sourcing, fitter(s), etc) and soon you can see that they need a lot of money coming in just to cover these costs beofer thay can make a profit.

Over here Bentley build their cars in a factory right next to a railway line in Crewe and one place they display/sell them is in a showroom next to a railway line in Knutsford, yet they send numerous lorries every day between Crewe and Knutsford.

Crewe to Knutsford is pretty much a nonstarter as far as rail transport is concerned. It might have been viable in the early 20th centurn when roads were at best no where near as numerous as they are today, and certainly no where near the standard as they are now, but for a 20-ish mile journey, it's far quick and easier to load a lorry that you have access to and send it on it's way (and potentially have it return 2 hours later for another load) compared to hiring a train at a suitable time of day, which depending on the various railheads an amount of traffic on the line, might not be able to get back for 6-8 hours.