London Midland to be broken up?

[causton]

Seems to happen all over the place though, Thameslink and Great Northern do it all the time. You can get a seat on the 1235 to Hatfield out of Kings Cross but you'd be hard pushed to get one on the 2235 as the evening services are so much more crowded!

(This was true when it was FCC, so not just a Govia thing either )

 

[The Ham]

Based on the Local council thinking laid out in this document: http://www.westmidlandsrail.com/media/1038/wmr-proposition-and-business-case.pdf

Where the talk about the new West Coast Connect (WCC) franchise (in addition to West Coast and not merged with it), I could see that such a set up could be very useful going forward. In that as HS2 opens up and many of the existing intercity services move over to running on HS2 then more local services could be run by the West Coast Connect franchise using the WCML.

In doing so it stops the local services in the West Midlands getting "lost" from the TOC's thought process as it focuses on the more complex / interesting / profitable services which run along the WCML.

It therefore better splits the services over three franchises going forward rather than having HS2, ICWC and the current LM franchise (where HS2 and ICWC would be aiming for the intercity market) it would be HS2, WCC and West Midlands Rail Contract (WMRC) (where HS2 would be long distance, WCC would be regional with some local focus on services along the WCML and WMRC would focus on the services in the West Midlands away from WCML).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suspect the DfT didn't like it because Virgin told them they didn't and would cause a stink if it happened. <cynical>

It was a compromise to get 3tph to Birmingham/Manchester, without buying more Pendolinos beyond the 4 and the lengthening project.
LM filling in on the Trent Valley saved another hourly VT train.
This was during the VT management contract and the VHF timetable is pretty much down to DfT.

 

[Class 170101]

LM filling in on the Trent Valley saved another hourly VT train.
This was during the VT management contract and the VHF timetable is pretty much down to DfT.

May well have but now the Trent Valley trains either need lengthening or an increase in service frequency.

 

[plastictaffy]

Would the services utilise the existing LM rolling stock which is used on the current diagrams ?

Certainly hope so. They've spent 62 million quid on the new 'uns, and siphoned 18 million off our pensions to boot!!!

LM never wanted the West Coast, they only wanted their poxy "branch lines" around the Democratic People's Republic of Birmingham due to the amount of subsidy the fares get. It's a sure thing, making money off that.

That's conveniently forgetting that at least 60% of their revenue comes from elsewhere, of course.........

 

[shaun]

I can't imagine Virgin ever wanting to run 'local' trains, would they lower themselves to a 3+2 seated Class 350?! If this does happen i can imagine another operator just running the London-Northampton/Birmingham (much like Silverlink) and the Trent Valley/Crewe stoppers perhaps going over to ICWC replacing the core trains with IEP-type units. This would give the likes of Nuneaton and Tamworth a proper regular Intercity service to London using Intercity-spec trains.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't imagine Virgin ever wanting to run 'local' trains, would they lower themselves to a 3+2 seated Class 350?!

Apparently before the XC and Central reorganisation someone at DfT came up with the idea of:

Hourly Liverpool to Stansted Airport service
Hourly Liverpool to Birmingham only service (operated by 350s)
Hourly Manchester to Reading/South Coast service
Hourly Manchester to Birmingham only service (operated by 350s)

And it was Virgin who stopped that idea going ahead. They didn't want 350s and didn't want Central taking over some of their Manchester services.

However, if the next franchise is let on the basis of operating 350s on slow services Virgin have two choices:
1. Bid and accept it.
2. Don't bid.

However, I suspect they'll kick up a fuss to make it sound like DfT don't want them to run West Coast services.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I can't imagine Virgin ever wanting to run 'local' trains, would they lower themselves to a 3+2 seated Class 350?! If this does happen i can imagine another operator just running the London-Northampton/Birmingham (much like Silverlink) and the Trent Valley/Crewe stoppers perhaps going over to ICWC replacing the core trains with IEP-type units. This would give the likes of Nuneaton and Tamworth a proper regular Intercity service to London using Intercity-spec trains.

What about with a "mini" pendolino (say 6 car), with enough of them, they could be coupled up as needed for the fast runs

 

[BantamMenace]

Or a refit of the 350s they'd get to a similar standard ATW's 175s and 158s, im a huge fan of them and think they portray the luxury that virgin want to portray

 

[WatcherZero]

Based on the Local council thinking laid out in this document: http://www.westmidlandsrail.com/media/1038/wmr-proposition-and-business-case.pdf

Where the talk about the new West Coast Connect (WCC) franchise (in addition to West Coast and not merged with it), I could see that such a set up could be very useful going forward. In that as HS2 opens up and many of the existing intercity services move over to running on HS2 then more local services could be run by the West Coast Connect franchise using the WCML.

In doing so it stops the local services in the West Midlands getting "lost" from the TOC's thought process as it focuses on the more complex / interesting / profitable services which run along the WCML.

It therefore better splits the services over three franchises going forward rather than having HS2, ICWC and the current LM franchise (where HS2 and ICWC would be aiming for the intercity market) it would be HS2, WCC and West Midlands Rail Contract (WMRC) (where HS2 would be long distance, WCC would be regional with some local focus on services along the WCML and WMRC would focus on the services in the West Midlands away from WCML).

That's the idea, though likely the HS2 franchise would also run some WCML services like services to Liverpool/Scotland during phase 1 until phase 2 was completed.

 

[ian959]

Or a refit of the 350s they'd get to a similar standard ATW's 175s and 158s, im a huge fan of them and think they portray the luxury that virgin want to portray

Not for Virgin - boxy stuff with ugly corridor connections are not the sleek modern image that Virgin prefer, no matter how good the trains may or may not be. They want sleek, modern looking stuff...

 

[Wolfie]

Or a refit of the 350s they'd get to a similar standard ATW's 175s and 158s, im a huge fan of them and think they portray the luxury that virgin want to portray

I've used both LM 350s and ATW 158s regularly. I'm afraid I believe the latter to be inferior to a 350/1 not least because the aircon actually works on the latter. The ATW trains you mention are absolutely nowhere near Virgin standards.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think there will be a lot of changes if/when HS2 opens, because there won't be any desire from DafT for the existing WCML services to be as fast as they are. As we've seen in Kent, if you keep the expresses running to existing timings then nobody would bother paying the premiums to use the shiny new High Speed service. The expresses from Birmingham and Manchester will need to be slowed down otherwise HS2 will be a white elephant.

 

[The Ham]

That's the idea, though likely the HS2 franchise would also run some WCML services like services to Liverpool/Scotland during phase 1 until phase 2 was completed.

My view was that the HS2 franchise would start off as what is currently ICWC and as HS2 comes on-line those services which are duplicated would start to be dropped from the WCML.
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I think there will be a lot of changes if/when HS2 opens, because there won't be any desire from DafT for the existing WCML services to be as fast as they are. As we've seen in Kent, if you keep the expresses running to existing timings then nobody would bother paying the premiums to use the shiny new High Speed service. The expresses from Birmingham and Manchester will need to be slowed down otherwise HS2 will be a white elephant.

There will be a noticeable time advantage to HS2 even without slowing down the existing WCML services, however to ensure that any remaining fast services are well used it is likely that they will call at one or two extra stations (cue much rejoicing from certain forum members who complain about Virgin trains not calling at MK as much as they think they should).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be a noticeable time advantage to HS2 even without slowing down the existing WCML services, however to ensure that any remaining fast services are well used it is likely that they will call at one or two extra stations (cue much rejoicing from certain forum members who complain about Virgin trains not calling at MK as much as they think they should).

Once HS2 is fully live I would expect to see all, or very nearly all, WCML classic IC trains calling at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes Central. Or at least one of those. And MK is still getting bigger...

Neil

 

[TDK]

But as someone who keeps his ear to the ground on that part of the network, had you heard of any of this before?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Doesn't mention stock at all, just the consideration of splitting LM into two business units at this stage. Author is Tony Miles.

I heard about this about 2 years ago

 

[northwichcat]

I heard about this about 2 years ago

A proposal that appeared in the McNulty review was for the diesel and electric services in the LM franchise to be separated with the electric going in to the West Coast franchise, so this appears to be a revised version of that proposal.

 

[the sniper]

I heard about this about 2 years ago

As a rumour I think this has been going around since the Central Trains days, people were always saying that Centro would take over the Birmingham suburban network eventually. That died down when London Midland came and the Centro branding was toned down, but it started getting talked about again when LM had their troubles with the Sunday working and subsequent killing off of the Booking Offices. Then this official proposal came about. But it was talked about for a long time, around here anyway.

 

[Class 170101]

Once HS2 is fully live I would expect to see all, or very nearly all, WCML classic IC trains calling at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes Central. Or at least one of those. And MK is still getting bigger...

Neil

I hope they put Nuneaton back on as well. Particularly with its conections across from the East Midlands to the North West.