Trivia: Stations which have seen a reduction in services since 1996

[43074]

Lincoln may have had more trains before but I don't know about that one.

Lincoln's timetable is almost a carbon copy of that in 1996, except the London services were introduced only recently.

But the reduction of trains to Leicester that I was replying to was.
See 12CSVT's post above.

I was just pointing out EMT have made services worse for many.

No they haven't! There are still 4tph between Leicester and St Pancras, which is the same as in MML days, it's just that now 1 of these calls at Kettering, Wellingborough and Bedford, and even services from these stations to St Pancras are still at 2tph, there has been no reduction, it's just that 1 service runs to Corby instead.

EMT are more focussed on their London services than the Local services and this is true, so there is no incentive to improve services in Lincoln/Grimsby because of this - and this is something the DfT could change if they had the desire - but what has changed is that ex Central routes are now much more reliable and that is why more people are using their local services.

EMT aren't doing a good job. Like I said above Barnsley and Burton were also cut. Why does Corby deserve a better service than them? I wonder if the station reopening was bad for the Midland mainline.

The same EMT who recently won the National Rail Operator of the Year accolade, the same TOC who runs the most punctual InterCity services in the country, accelerated their London services in December 2008 with no infrastructure enhancements and more recenly through 125mph enhancements, doubled London - Sheffield to half hourly, run extra trains for the Lincoln Christmas Market, racing at Uttoxeter and are very good at running football extras too…

Burton has plenty of trains offering connections at Derby, and it’s quicker to go via Tamworth anyway, and Barnsley again has plenty of connections available at Sheffield. Apart from anything else, it was only ever a token service in the first place.

And Matlock lost its London service with Midland Mainline anyway.

Corby happens to be closer to London, and there is more competition from the nearby East Coast (at Peterborough) and West Coast (at Northampton) main lines. Also the EMT service from Corby is it's only service, unlike at Barnsley or Burton where there are 4 or 3tph respectively to the nearest EMT Mainline stations anyway.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

43074, you assume everyone on the Midland mainline goes to London when many go to the other stations. EMT will only have more reliabillity because they have the mainline to boost the figures now. From what I've seen with people unable to get on the train at Barnetby at morning rush hour. Plus they needlessly closed Nottingham for ages. The linespeed improvements were DfT. Look at evening timetable and compare with the last one before EMT got the mainline. Even wikipedia has a section on the bad stuff.

 

[43074]

43074, you assume everyone on the Midland mainline goes to London when many go to the other stations. EMT will only have more reliabillity because they have the mainline to boost the figures now. From what I've seen with people unable to get on the train at Barnetby at morning rush hour. Plus they needlessly closed Nottingham for ages. The linespeed improvements were DfT. Look at evening timetable and compare with the last one before EMT got the mainline. Even wikipedia has a section on the bad stuff.

Not at all, I regularly travel between Leicester and Loughborough, Derby, Sheffield, Nottingham and Market Harborough to name a few places that I have used the MML to travel to, not only for leisure but education, visiting family and so on, so actually I don't assume everyone goes to London. I know full well there are many commuters between Leicester, Nottingham and Derby as well. My point was, that EMT focus on the London stuff because that's where the money comes from - and if you were running a business, why wouldn't you?

The local services are actually more reliable than their Mainline couterparts - the performance moving annual average for the local services is 92% of trains arriving within 5 mins of booked time, whereas it is 90% on the Mainline. The right time performance figures (i.e. arrivals within 60 seconds of booked time) are only 40% on the Mainline and 68% on the Local side

They didn't needlessly close Nottingham for ages! How else were Network Rail supposed to totally remodel the station including the approaches, platform layout, signalling equipment etc. with trains running!

And Wikipedia - is that really the best source to get information from on a subjective issue like how good or bad a train company is? Compared to other TOCs EMT are very good.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Plus they needlessly closed Nottingham for ages.

First time I've ever heard anyone call it that. I dread to think how many weekend closures the blockade saved, and for the pain of the 25 day (?) closure they got a new platform, remodelled goodness only knows how many junctions, closed numerous level crossings and relaid and resignalled miles of track, as well as I believe making structural provisions for the new tram overbridge and prep work for the remodelled passenger facilities on the concourse. I'd certainly take a four week blanket closure over loads of annoying weekend jobs where as soon as you get started you need to pack up again as your possession is over - look at the huge debacle on the WCML where for about 3-4 years nowhere in North West England got a regular through train to London on a weekend. The same philosophy also seemed perfectly adequate for the recent Selby and Wigan blockades, as well as in the past the Lincoln one.

When I travelled to Lincoln over the Nottingham blockade, I found the whole process very easy - buses were well signposted at Derby and Nottingham, and EMT's literature on the matter was superbly clear and concise.

 

[yorksrob]

Winchelsea, Doleham and Three Oaks all used to be served by the hourly Marshlink shuttle on the eve of privatisation. Now Winchelsea and Three Oaks are two hourly and Doleham a lot less.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Stanlow & Thornton and Ince & Elton used to have half hourly services from early morning to late evening. Now they only have 4 trains a day each way, at very irregular times. As a consequence of cuts to the Ellesmere Port service, Helsby also has far fewer trains than it once had.

 

[thenorthern]

How many trains used to stop at Hartford?

When Virgin Trains took over I vaguely remember most Virgin Trains from London to Liverpool stopping there until 1999ish then after that I think some South Coast/Birmingham to Liverpool/Preston trains stopping there until 2001. Then after that it was only Central Trains that stopped at Harford as well as a once daily Wales and Borders train.

 

[Starmill]

When did Bolton ever have TPE trains to Wigan? Only when diverted!

Ashton-under-Lyne used to have 3tph now it only has 2 since the May timetable change.

 

[Robertj21a]

Newhaven Marine

 

[bb21]

43074, you assume everyone on the Midland mainline goes to London when many go to the other stations. EMT will only have more reliabillity because they have the mainline to boost the figures now. From what I've seen with people unable to get on the train at Barnetby at morning rush hour. Plus they needlessly closed Nottingham for ages. The linespeed improvements were DfT. Look at evening timetable and compare with the last one before EMT got the mainline. Even wikipedia has a section on the bad stuff.

I can't really decide whether to take you seriously with the bold part. How do you propose to carry out the upgrade?

Leicester - Kettering / Bedford may be relatively busy flows that lost out due to the timetable rejig to fit in the 5th hourly train to Corby, but that was sacrificed so that Corby, Leicester and stations further north got better services to London, and from what I have seen so far, the hourly stopper caters perfectly fine for the market between Leicester and Kettering / Wellingborough / Bedford for the vast majority of the day albeit fairly busy, but everyone can at least get a seat.

EMT's main problem in terms of timetabling on the mainline is the irregularly spaced departures from Leicester and points north. I also think it would improve connectivity enormously by stopping the hourly semi-fast at Kettering, but given that it is mostly an HST, increased journey time may push it into the path of a follow-on train.

There is simply no perfect answer.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

A new temp station should of been built for Nottingham, at least for some local services. Like when Leeds was closed for rebuilding.
Or they should of run as many services as they could to Carlton or Beeston or Bulwell. Rather than using buses for long distance.

 

[bb21]

How many more trains do you think stations like Beeston can accommodate? Didn't the hourly stopper by XC and the Matlocks finish there? I can't remember the arrangements for the other stations you mentioned but whether trains are run will depend on whether there are turning facilities there. On top of that, you will then need to consider the ease of access for those places and whether they would be suitable for laying over a large number of vehicles at those stations.

Where do you propose the new station be built, and who will fund it?

EMT could also have said "Tough, it's all part of the upgrade plan" and did sod all farewise. As it happened, they offered 15% off on affected routes, so they did try and recompense affected passengers despite fulfilling their obligation of providing alternative transport.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I can't remember the arrangements for the other stations you mentioned but whether trains are run will depend on whether there are turning facilities there.

Lincolns were to / from Newark Castle - the only reason I went there during the blockade was to get the rare crossover done at Castle...

Edit - I have a feeling the Skegness trains ran to Nottingham for some period of the works, the only such trains to do so...

 

[TheBigD]

Grimsby Town used to have loads more trains to Lincoln...

No it didn't... It's always been a pretty spartan service, even in the 1980's when the London HST ran and locals were either a DMU or a 31 + Mk1's the service was basic...

The service today is virtually unchanged in the last 20 odd years... The main alteration being the withdrawal of the 7pm(ish) Lincoln-Grimsby and return service in the early 2000's...

Rolling stock wise it's definitely seen a big reduction in capacity though as all but the 1723 ex Lincoln (I think) and return are booked for single 153's...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

No it didn't... It's always been a pretty spartan service, even in the 1980's when the London HST ran and locals were either a DMU or a 31 + Mk1's the service was basic...

The service today is virtually unchanged in the last 20 odd years... The main alteration being the withdrawal of the 7pm(ish) Lincoln-Grimsby and return service in the early 2000's...

Rolling stock wise it's definitely seen a big reduction in capacity though as all but the 1723 ex Lincoln (I think) and return are booked for single 153's...

I'm sure I remember the trains to Newark Castle via Newark Northgate being every hour and an half at some times. But then it was cutback because it messed up the East Coast's capacity. We also get a two-car train on Saturdays and Summer Sundays (to Notts).

 

[thenorthern]

I have a feeling the Skegness trains ran to Nottingham for some period of the works, the only such trains to do so...

I think I remember seeing something on East Midlands Today that the Skegness train still ran right the way through the rebuilding because they were worried about losing revenue.

 

[Hophead]

Farningham Road used to see a half-hourly service off-peak but was reduced to hourly with the introduction of the Integrated Kent Franchise (2009?). Sole Street also suffered.

 

[northwichcat]

You could say Knutsford and Altrincham.

The Mid-Cheshire line used to get an afternoon Chester-Stockport-Blackpool semi-fast which stopped at the main stations between Chester and Stockport. The service was later cut in two so there was a Chester-Stockport-Manchester semi-fast and a separate Stockport-Blackpool service. In December 2008 the afternoon semi-fast was withdrawn, with the previous service being strengthened to 4 carriages.

Also as a result of West Coast Intercity enhancements an early Knutsford-Stockport only service went.

So that's 2 less Stockport bound services a day from Knutsford and Altrincham.

The following changes have also occurred since privatisation, which don't affect the number of trains but do limit the number of direct trains to certain destinations:
* Two morning peak services have been truncated at Stockport instead of continuing to Manchester.
* Another morning peak service terminates at Manchester Piccadilly instead of continuing to Manchester Oxford Rd.
* A morning service to Blackpool was truncated at Manchester Piccadilly and one originating from St-Annes-on-Sea now originates at Manchester.
* Two evening peak services start at Stockport instead of Manchester.
* Another evening peak service starts at Manchester Piccadilly instead of from Manchester Oxford Rd.

However, despite all that the Sunday service has been improved at all stations on the line and the stations between Greenbank and Chester get an additional morning service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Also there is Sinfin North, Sinfin Central, Pendleton and Etruria all of which have closed since 1996 however with Wedgwood, Barleston and Norton Bridge all of which I think are getting a more frequent service with the rail replacement buses than they were with mainline trains.

In all fairness the two Sinfin stations never had the best service in the world even in the late 1970's and were certainly no Clapham Junction! Even when the service first started it was only a couple of trains a day.

 

[Springs Branch]

Couple of examples from the Manchester area:-

Styal
- used to have a regular-interval 30 minute service in each direction all day & through the evening, southwards to Alderley Edge and northwards to Piccadilly, Oxford Rd & Altrincham. After the Airport branch opened in 1993, services decreased progressively as the Airport became the principal destination on the "Styal Line".
- Today Styal station has 3 trains per day in one direction, 5 per day in the other. I think it may have had even fewer than this in the recent post-privatisation past.

Clifton
- Used to be served by all stopping trains between Bolton and Manchester. Generally an hourly service, usually by the Blackburn trains with one or two extras to or from Southport & Blackpool.
- Clifton now has 1 train per day in each direction.

Ardwick
- Used to be served by most of the Rose Hill, Marple & New Mills trains in peak hours, plus a sporadic, irregular service in the middle of the day.
- Now down to 1 train per day towards Piccadilly and 2 per day towards Rose Hill.

Reddish South & Denton
Not sure when the regular (if infrequent) Stockport/Stalybridge shuttle was withdrawn. Was this before or after privatisation? If there was still some sort of daily service operating at the end of BR, then that is another post-privatisation reduction, to the well-known 1 per week parly.

 

[Busaholic]

When did Bolton ever have TPE trains to Wigan? Only when diverted!

Ashton-under-Lyne used to have 3tph now it only has 2 since the May timetable change.

Plus 5 tph Ashton to Eccles via Manchester, 't' being trams in this case!

 

[thenorthern]

Rauceby I think used to have more trains than it does now but I am not sure how much more.

 

[Quakers Yard]

Watford west.
When did Pilning go parliamentary?

 

[thenorthern]

Watford west.
When did Pilning go parliamentary?

It went parliamentary in British Rail days (I think), there were only 48 passengers using Pilning in 1997. Until 2006 however I think there were 10 trains per week stopping there compared to the 2 per week there is now.

 

[LLivery]

Lincoln's timetable is almost a carbon copy of that in 1996, except the London services were introduced only recently.



No they haven't! There are still 4tph between Leicester and St Pancras, which is the same as in MML days, it's just that now 1 of these calls at Kettering, Wellingborough and Bedford, and even services from these stations to St Pancras are still at 2tph, there has been no reduction, it's just that 1 service runs to Corby instead.

EMT are more focussed on their London services than the Local services and this is true, so there is no incentive to improve services in Lincoln/Grimsby because of this - and this is something the DfT could change if they had the desire - but what has changed is that ex Central routes are now much more reliable and that is why more people are using their local services.



The same EMT who recently won the National Rail Operator of the Year accolade, the same TOC who runs the most punctual InterCity services in the country, accelerated their London services in December 2008 with no infrastructure enhancements and more recenly through 125mph enhancements, doubled London - Sheffield to half hourly, run extra trains for the Lincoln Christmas Market, racing at Uttoxeter and are very good at running football extras too…

Burton has plenty of trains offering connections at Derby, and it’s quicker to go via Tamworth anyway, and Barnsley again has plenty of connections available at Sheffield. Apart from anything else, it was only ever a token service in the first place.

And Matlock lost its London service with Midland Mainline anyway.

Corby happens to be closer to London, and there is more competition from the nearby East Coast (at Peterborough) and West Coast (at Northampton) main lines. Also the EMT service from Corby is it's only service, unlike at Barnsley or Burton where there are 4 or 3tph respectively to the nearest EMT Mainline stations anyway.

EMT have failed Kettering and Wellingborough. Wellingborough (pop 50,000) is the closest station for not just the town itself, but also Irthlingborough (pop 9,000), Rushden (pop 30,000) and Higham Ferrers (pop 7,000) - all just a few miles from the station, meaning really Wellingborough serves over 85,000 people. Even with that fact it has just one five car train an hour to Leicester, one to Corby and two to London. The service north is quite frankly nothing less than rubbish and the service south costs double than from Northampton. Station usage have fallen at Wellingborough and Kettering for the last couple years and I'm not surprised. In the RUS NR recommended adding a additional stop in Northants for the Sheffield service, which should have been obvious in the first place. I hope EWR improves services here too. EMT might be getting these awards but frankly Northamptonshire have had a terrible deal since they took over from Midland Mainline. By the way its probable any operator would have increased Sheffield services and 125mph on the MML wasn't EMTs idea!

 

[bb21]

EMT have failed Kettering and Wellingborough. Wellingborough (pop 50,000) is the closest station for not just the town itself, but also Irthlingborough (pop 9,000), Rushden (pop 30,000) and Higham Ferrers (pop 7,000) - all just a few miles from the station, meaning really Wellingborough serves over 85,000 people. Even with that fact it has just one five car train an hour to Leicester, one to Corby and two to London. The service north is quite frankly nothing less than rubbish and the service south costs double than from Northampton. Station usage have fallen at Wellingborough and Kettering for the last couple years and I'm not surprised. In the RUS NR recommended adding a additional stop in Northants for the Sheffield service, which should have been obvious in the first place. I hope EWR improves services here too. EMT might be getting these awards but frankly Northamptonshire have had a terrible deal since they took over from Midland Mainline. By the way its probable any operator would have increased Sheffield services and 125mph on the MML wasn't EMTs idea!

The problem with expensive fares can be traced back to BR. Due to historical arrangements, ie. Northampton being part of Network SouthEast and Wellingborough part of Intercity, fares between these two places and London varied a great deal, and today's fares structure still echoes that of those days, not just for EMT, but for other operators too.

As for the additional stop, I have mentioned before that one additional stop on the Nottingham semi-fast at Kettering could improve connectivity by a great deal, but there may not be the path for it.

 

[thenorthern]

What about London Waterloo, overall the number of trains stopping there has massively increased since 1996 although since 2007 the Eurostar has no longer terminated there.

 

[LLivery]

The problem with expensive fares can be traced back to BR. Due to historical arrangements, ie. Northampton being part of Network SouthEast and Wellingborough part of Intercity, fares between these two places and London varied a great deal, and today's fares structure still echoes that of those days, not just for EMT, but for other operators too.

As for the additional stop, I have mentioned before that one additional stop on the Nottingham semi-fast at Kettering could improve connectivity by a great deal, but there may not be the path for it.

The fares structure is of course not EMTs fault, but they could have not continued this extortion to such a degree. Chiltern manage Marylebone to Birmingham for less than £30 - yes they are competing with LM and St Virgin but it needs sorting out - especially with Northamptonshire being a even greater London commuter county in the future.

As for the Semi-fast call, I don't think another going Nottingham will be as useful as Sheffield. With the pathing, all I know is that it passes Wellingborough a few minutes after the Corby departs. Restoring the link to Derby would be far better, as would Corby trains going Oakham, providing a quicker link to Peterborough, Cambridge and Stansted. But obviously the number of trains has to be available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Leigh, Penhurst, Edenbridge and Nutfield. Half Hourly to Hourly since Southern took over from Southeastern. I'm not sure what it was like in NSE days.

Sydenham, Forest Hill, Honor Oak, Brockley, New Cross Gate have more services however, less trains to London Bridge, and withdrawn from Charing Cross. (And it seems nothing will improve after Thameslink is complete).

 

[reb0118]

Fellow forumites please check your grammar before posting. Especially check that you are not confusing the preposition "of" with the verb "have" or "had". This will not be found out by doing a spell-check. Please note that this makes your posting jar so to speak and your point may be lost.

If it helps preview your post before submitting.

 

[Rich_D3167]

Rolling stock wise it's definitely seen a big reduction in capacity though as all but the 1723 ex Lincoln (I think) and return are booked for single 153's...

Even the 17:22 ex. Lincoln (brought forward by a minute these days, and starts from Newark North Gate at 16:45) is booked for a single 153 these days. Monday to Thursday. Fridays should see a pair (although that drops to a single car in the Summer...). Recommended to get on that service as soon as it gets into Lincoln station platform if you want any remote chance of getting a seat!