East West Rail - seems optimistic?

[eMeS]

My local paper has just done a piece about a visit from the Transport Secretary to Milton Keynes. Link below:-

What caught my eye was this:

By 2019, the East West Rail project will see Milton Keynes linked with Oxford and Cambridge and work is scheduled to regenerate Bletchley after funding was recently secured.

(My emphasis.)

My impression was that getting the Oxford to Bedford route established was the first priority, and that getting through to Cambridge was perhaps a decade away. Am I wrong?

http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/...ight-for-transport-in-milton-keynes-1-6446346

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I think the Cambridge by 2019 thing has more to do with an error on your local newspaper's part than anything else. Getting to Cambridge is certainly a goal of East-West but not just yet.

 

[edwin_m]

There's an article in December's Modern Railways which I haven't read throughly yet but seems to suggest that they are narrowing down the choice of possible routes east of Bedford. Possibly the journalist picked this up and got a bit confused.

 

[eMeS]

Thanks.

How are they planning to deal with Milton Keynes? Are they planning trains from Oxford to Milton Keynes, and separately trains from Oxford to Bedford not via Milton Keynes. Diverting all trains from Oxford to Bedford via Milton Keynes is likely to spoil the timings, surely.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As far as I am aware (and this is just mess room talk so take it with a grain of salt) it's expected just to have an Oxford - MKC service and an Oxford - Bedford (avoiding MKC) service.

 

[MK Tom]

There will be one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Milton Keynes, one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Bedford and one train an hour from Aylesbury (London Marylebone via High Wycombe) to Milton Keynes.

What's not clear is whether we'll ever see direct Milton Keynes to Bedford services. I've always wanted it, but there are six buses an hour on this corridor now (X5/40/52/C1/C10) and the momentum for the direct rail service seems to have dissipated.

Personally I think MK/Bedford-Oxford services should run on to Swindon and Bristol rather than Reading, but there you go.

 

[21C101]

I just hope they select the southern option for the Central section ie a chord at Millbrook and a new line from Luton Airport to Stevenage.

If they go via Bedford and Sandy or Hitchin, it will be a missed opportunity (to provide Intercity Connection with both Midland and East Coast Main lines and to provide a railway the eight miles from Luton Pop 200,000 to Stevenage pop 85,000).

 

[eMeS]

...
What's not clear is whether we'll ever see direct Milton Keynes to Bedford services. I've always wanted it, but there are six buses an hour on this corridor now (X5/40/52/C1/C10) and the momentum for the direct rail service seems to have dissipated.

Personally I think MK/Bedford-Oxford services should run on to Swindon and Bristol rather than Reading, but there you go.

Thanks for the info.

Returning from Cambridge on the X5 in the early evening, we were dumped in Bedford at ~20:15 as that was where the service stopped for the night. At that time, the bus people assured me that my only way to Milton Keynes was via rail, so we got over to Bedford Midland, and just caught the next train to Bletchley. The X5 timetable shows a biased pattern of services in the early morning and evening, with Bedford doing well in the morning, & Oxford in the evening.

 

[Abpj17]

There will be one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Milton Keynes, one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Bedford and one train an hour from Aylesbury (London Marylebone via High Wycombe) to Milton Keynes.

What's not clear is whether we'll ever see direct Milton Keynes to Bedford services. I've always wanted it, but there are six buses an hour on this corridor now (X5/40/52/C1/C10) and the momentum for the direct rail service seems to have dissipated.

Personally I think MK/Bedford-Oxford services should run on to Swindon and Bristol rather than Reading, but there you go.

Will both of those services go via Bletchey though? (so even with changes, it'll connect somehow to the WCML?)

 

[phil beard]

There will be one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Milton Keynes, one train per hour from Oxford (Didcot/Reading) to Bedford and one train an hour from Aylesbury (London Marylebone via High Wycombe) to Milton Keynes.

I thought that the Marylebone train was going to Oxford or do you mean a second train going to MKC?

 

[21C101]

I thought that the Marylebone train was going to Oxford or do you mean a second train going to MKC?

No that is a different train.

He is talking about the existing Marylebone - High Wycombe - Princes Ris - Aylesbury service being extended to Winslow, Bletchley and Milton Keynes.

Once this happens and the tradesmans entrance is built out of heathrow to Slough can see pressure for reopening of High Wycombe - Bourne End becoming irresistible which would enable a Paddington - Heathrow - Slough- Maidenhead - High Wycombe -Princes Ris - Aylesbury - Bletchley - Milton Keynes - Northampton trans Buckinghamshire service

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, it's a separate Chiltern service, an extension of the existing Aylesbury via High Wycombe. That aspect of EWR has been fairly stable for a couple of years, it was effectively finalised independently of Chiltern's Oxford service.

As of today, we still don't know which TOC is going to run the other two EWR services through Bletchley, wherever they decide to start them from on the GW. Origins south of Oxford are highly probable but not yet confirmed; (this'll be why Mk Tom added the brackets in his earlier reply).

 

[asylumxl]

I just hope they select the southern option for the Central section ie a chord at Millbrook and a new line from Luton Airport to Stevenage.

If they go via Bedford and Sandy or Hitchin, it will be a missed opportunity (to provide Intercity Connection with both Midland and East Coast Main lines and to provide a railway the eight miles from Luton Pop 200,000 to Stevenage pop 85,000).

I doubt this will happen. I live in the area the theoretical line would go through, between Luton and Stevenage, and the gradients would make it a very expensive job.

A decent express coach service from Luton to Stevenage would be nice though. Not the all shacks 100/101/102 bus.

 

[21C101]

I doubt this will happen. I live in the area the theoretical line would go through, between Luton and Stevenage, and the gradients would make it a very expensive job.

A decent express coach service from Luton to Stevenage would be nice though. Not the all shacks 100/101/102 bus.

It is the most expensive but apparently has got the best BCR of the three options being considered though and it would add huge operational flexibility to the Midland and ECMLs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's not clear is whether we'll ever see direct Milton Keynes to Bedford services.

LM talked about it, and there is time in the layovers at Bletchley to do it now, but I believe some infrastructure work was needed to allow a passenger service to depart north from Bletchley P5/6, and of course when East West Rail comes it'll be taken away again.

Neil

 

[The Planner]

You can do it now from Platform 5, but it is a naff and slow move. Don't understand why it will be taken away again as part of EW though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

EW Rail plans are to run Oxford-Bedford, Oxford-MK and Aylesbury-MK I believe, not MK-Bedford.

 

[The Planner]

Ah, I understand now, I thought you meant infrastructure wise.

 

[21C101]

You can do it now from Platform 5, but it is a naff and slow move. Don't understand why it will be taken away again as part of EW though?

The BBRUA are very cross about the the fact that, after millions of pounds have been spent putting in a bay platform at Milton Keynes and signalling platform 5 to allow through services, the through services are conspicuous by their absence.

The move from Bedford Sindgen's St John's* to Bedford is naff and slow but had a massively positive effect on use of the line when it was put in in the '80s.

The failure to do it comes under disgrace in my book. Aside from Bedford, Ridgmont at Junction 13 of the M1 has Park and Ride to Milton Keynes written all over it.

* Satirical comment about the way upper class people with the surname St John pronounce it.

 

[The Planner]

The bay platform was not put in for that, it was always called the Reading bay unofficially years ago.

 

[MK Tom]

When I raised the point about MK-Bedford I was kind of treating that independently from the three core E-WR services. I mean bloody Silverlink had plans for that. It should've long happened by now, and I really don't buy the line about the WCML being too congested for one extra train per hour along four miles of the slow lines.

There is talk now of using E-WR to divert Cross Country services via MK, which comes across a bit like an attempt to make up for HS2 effectively cutting us out of long distance services. The proposal is that the Bournemouth-Manchester service would run Oxford-MK-Coventry. This has the added benefit of a non-stop express from MK to Oxford and Reading.

Thanks for the info.

Returning from Cambridge on the X5 in the early evening, we were dumped in Bedford at ~20:15 as that was where the service stopped for the night. At that time, the bus people assured me that my only way to Milton Keynes was via rail, so we got over to Bedford Midland, and just caught the next train to Bletchley. The X5 timetable shows a biased pattern of services in the early morning and evening, with Bedford doing well in the morning, & Oxford in the evening.

This is just a function of the fact that the X5 fleet is based at Bedford depot. It wouldn't be cost effective to run buses empty back from Oxford or Cambridge.

Also there are services from Bedford to MK at that time of night on Uno service C1/C10.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is talk now of using E-WR to divert Cross Country services via MK, which comes across a bit like an attempt to make up for HS2 effectively cutting us out of long distance services. The proposal is that the Bournemouth-Manchester service would run Oxford-MK-Coventry. This has the added benefit of a non-stop express from MK to Oxford and Reading.

It is not a diversion, it is explained in both the EWR prospectus and the recent Great Western consultation draft as an additional service - the latter showing it as a third XC service on the Oxford to Reading corridor, running between Man Picc and Basingstoke, the reasonable implication being that the existing two services carry on as before.

 

[21C101]

It is not a diversion, it is explained in both the EWR prospectus and the recent Great Western consultation draft as an additional service - the latter showing it as a third XC service on the Oxford to Reading corridor, running between Man Picc and Basingstoke, the reasonable implication being that the existing two services carry on as before.

Seems a bit daft to peg it at Basingstoke. If they are not careful it will turn into a white elephant like the fast Brighton to Manchesters up the WCML they introduced in the '80s.

 

[The Planner]

It would likely also go along the Trent Valley not to Cov and Brum.

 

[Class 170101]

It would likely also go along the Trent Valley not to Cov and Brum.

In that case would it call at some or all of (Northampton,) Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, then Stafford, Crewe, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[21C101]

In that case would it call at some or all of (Northampton,) Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, then Stafford, Crewe, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly?

I would think MK, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport and Picc.

 

[The Planner]

Would agree with the above, XC is journey time obsessed and would want to be on the fasts as much as possible.

 

[21C101]

Would agree with the above, XC is journey time obsessed and would want to be on the fasts as much as possible.

They might call at Northampton I suppose if they have to go that way because crossing over to the fasts at Roade will take too much fast line capacity, but cant imagine any other calls before Stoke.

If you were going to run it semi fast you might as well keep going via Banbury and Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is just a function of the fact that the X5 fleet is based at Bedford depot. It wouldn't be cost effective to run buses empty back from Oxford or Cambridge.

And I suspect that if it was operated from each end, there would be no evening service at all, or at least a heavily reduced one ending before 1900. That there is quite a late one at the moment is at marginal cost because the buses have to get home to Bedford anyway.

Neil

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems a bit daft to peg it at Basingstoke. If they are not careful it will turn into a white elephant like the fast Brighton to Manchesters up the WCML they introduced in the '80s.

It will allow the service to be run with a 110 mph AC EMU, pending any changes to the SWML there is no capacity for an additional XC train south of Basingstoke in the timescales they are looking at for EWR.

We already know from previous RUS discussions that there is no capacity south of Basingstoke to allow the second XC service to run every hour, so it must follow that the third service cannot run either. The GW route study will be proposing services based on practicalities, such as where the wires end; rather than on your personal plans...