FGW 5 year direct award

[455driver]

Re Waterloo - Barnstaple.

The west of England draft route study (see thread on subject for details) is proposing that the Exmouth services be diverted to Paignton to give a 30 minute interval Paignton to Exmouth metro service.

Barnstaple services are proposed to be diverted to Axminster/Honiton to increase the service on this bit to half hourly. A new loop, location tba, but presumably Whimple, will be needed.

I think that transfer of Barnstaple line to SWT is now more likely and suspect that at least some of those Barnstaple services will end up at Waterloo. Not least because at certain times of the day there is already a half hourly service west of Salisbury and the single line means Barnstaple services will need to be integrated into these as there wont be room for 3 per hour, plus space for diverted GW HSTs even with another loop.

No they wont!
Those services will be worked by Exeter West drivers.
Those extra services (if you mean the ones from Exeter) will probably go over to FGW because SWT have to send crews 'passenger' to Exeter to work them which is very expensive and wasteful, transfering these to FGW will save SWT a fortune in wages and a unit. if its the ones which work from Salisbury to Yeovil, Honiton etc then these will stay as now.

Going by your logic the Salisbury to Bristol services should be in the hands of FGW!

Why cant you give it a rest for a while, every snippet of info and you are beating the 'Barnstaple to SWT' drum and it is getting rather tedious. FGW will be moving their 158s down to Exeter to work these services, nobody (except you) is going on about SWT taking the route on, cant you take the hint?

 

[infobleep]

As this is an extension, I shouldn't think there would be a lot of difference to the spec - perhaps some improvements/alterations here and there. I shouldn't think that the Franchise map would be torn up and Routes transferred to SWT or vice versa. Where would they get the additional Units from to go to Barnstaple. Leave it alone, the Devon Metro is all right and works OK (apart from the national problem of overcrowding)

Given the South West Trains franchise isn't up for renewal at the same time, if they were to swop routes, would they wait until the current South West Trains franchise was up for renewal.

I don't and nor do a considerable number of railstaff & passengers who use the Gatwick line. They've abandoned it because the service is so poor, with trains missing stops, whilst others cover it, it makes planning a journey a complete waste of time, trying to use it for getting to work is a joke.

Next time I want to go to Bristol, Wales or West Country, I'll go via London, at least I know I'll get there and whilst it may take longer it only costs about 75p each way or so on a priv Oyster card to go from Waterloo to Padd & vv.

I have noticed in recent times a lot of trains seems to suffer for late running for no reason given on the online departure boards at least. I don't use the trains myself so often.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the South West Trains franchise isn't up for renewal at the same time, if they were to swop routes, would they wait until the current South West Trains franchise was up for renewal.

Like 455driver I don't think the earlier post makes the case for a transfer of route responsibilities any more ikely at all. To say SWT run a half hourly service beyond Salisbury at certain times of the day is stretching things - for the vast majority of the day the service is hourly - although there are a few odd off pattern timings at the start of the up service from Exeter St D, and a few extra short services, they wouldn't need to run at all if FGW ran an extra stopper to Axminster.

But in principle, a service transfer can take place any time DfT directs it to happen. This is after all what happened when SWT ceased running beyond Exeter, and FGW were directed to operate a few more services in the Exeter and Paignton area to compensate. This happened a couple of years into SWT's franchise (by design) but about half way through the FGW franchise. No stock changed hands.

 

[Rhydgaled]

FGW will be moving their 158s down to Exeter to work these services, nobody (except you) is going on about SWT taking the route on, cant you take the hint?

Is the bold confirmed, or is it as much speculation as SWT taking on the services? In my opinion, FirstGW should keep the 158s on Cardiff - Portsmouth workings (ideally suplemented by another 12x 2-car sets to allow the route to be upped to 4-car, with the sole real 3-car 158 moved to Northern).

 

[21C101]

I made clear my posts were speculation. If you cannot speculate on future railway developments on this site, what is the point of having the forum. Fair enough disagree with me but can we avoid being intemperate?

I don't think it is rocket science to suggest that hell will freeze over before SWT (or whoever succeeds them when the franchise renews) hand over any services east of Exmouth Junction to FGW or anyone else, for two very good reasons:

1) If another TOC run services from Exeter to Axminster (and in peaks to Waterloo) then SWT lose a chunk of the lines revenue to that TOC.

2) The single line is a critical piece of infrastructure, because the knock on effect of delays on the single line section result in late running services hitting Basingstoke and upsetting the pathing to Waterloo in the peak, causing all sorts of disruption and delays to other services. For that reason also SWT (and probably NR southern zone (or whatever they are called now) will want a single TOC for all services east of Exmouth Junction. If I recall correctly, it was because of precisely that reason that the plan to transfer Waterloo - Exeter from SWT to Wessex Trains a few years back was canned quite late in the process.

Compared with the above, a slightly higher drivers bill is chicken feed. In any case it would not be particularly difficult to set up booking on/off at Exeter Central with suitable train crew accomodation and I'm sure there would be little problem filling vacancies based there.

Whether, Barnstaple line services divert to Axminster remains to be seen. However if they do, I can't see them being operated by a different franchise to the Waterloo - Exeter services for the above reasons.

 

[Rapidash]

It's also possible that the Powers That Be will want the Metro all under the same roof, so to speak, to maximise the efficiency (One less TOC to bribe/boss around).

 

[455driver]

Is the bold confirmed, or is it as much speculation as SWT taking on the services? In my opinion, FirstGW should keep the 158s on Cardiff - Portsmouth workings (ideally suplemented by another 12x 2-car sets to allow the route to be upped to 4-car, with the sole real 3-car 158 moved to Northern).

Where are they coming from?

FGW have 165s and 166s which will lose their work in a couple of years and will be looking for something to do, they cant fit on most of the Network as they are 23m long and 2.81m wide making them a bit fat, so they are going to Bristol with their 150s and 158s off to Exeter, I dont have a link but it is a very strong rumour and seems quite logical.

Speculation time-
The 166s could be reformed into 2 and 4 coach sets to increase capacity on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services (subject to platform length restrictions) with some taking over the Cardiff/Bristol-Paignton/Plymouth and Penzance services along with the 165s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I made clear my posts were speculation. If you cannot speculate on future railway developments on this site, what is the point of having the forum. Fair enough disagree with me but can we avoid being intemperate?

I don't think it is rocket science to suggest that hell will freeze over before SWT (or whoever succeeds them when the franchise renews) hand over any services east of Exmouth Junction to FGW or anyone else, for two very good reasons:

1) If another TOC run services from Exeter to Axminster (and in peaks to Waterloo) then SWT lose a chunk of the lines revenue to that TOC.

Compared with the above, a slightly higher drivers bill is chicken feed. In any case it would not be particularly difficult to set up booking on/off at Exeter Central with suitable train crew accomodation and I'm sure there would be little problem filling vacancies based there.

Whether, Barnstaple line services divert to Axminster remains to be seen. However if they do, I can't see them being operated by a different franchise to the Waterloo - Exeter services for the above reasons.

They wont go to Waterloo!!!!!!
Your reasons are just conjecture on your part and i am all for speculating but how many times are you going to mention it?
They already share the route between Brighton/Portsmouth to Salisbury and Bristol so why do you think its such a problem for them to share Axminster to Exeter?

As for another drivers depot at Exeter central? Why?

Barnstaples are planned to go to Axminster from 2017 (I think) or when Crossrail makes the 165/166s available which will be subject to these new trains working properly!

 

[Rich McLean]

First Great Western will have 20 x 2 car 158's once split and 1 x 3 Car.

Rumours, and these are just mess room rumours being touted, that 158s will be used on a new Bristol - Penzance hourly, Calling at all stations bar Bedminster, Parson Street and Weston Milton as far as Taunton, then Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Ivybridge, Plymouth, Devonport, St Beaduax Ferry Road (peak), then all stations to Penzance bar Menheniot (peak calls). This can't be done until Cornwall re signalling is completed

To do this will require 13 units. 5 units will be required to Barny - Axminster at a push with two spare units (3 if you count the 3 car unit), so a nice fit.

As already put, Exmouth - Paignton will be half hourly using 150s

Everything South of Exeter bar the odd Exrpess working will be sprinters, and everything north of Exeter will be Turbo's and possibly Electric units on Swansea/Cardiff - Bristol's vice the Cardiff - Taunton (now split at BRI) bar 158s on Bristol - Cornwalls

That seems to be the talk at the moment. None of this is likely to be decided and rubber stamped before May - Dec 2016, and is subject to change

 

[21C101]

They already share the route between Brighton/Portsmouth to Salisbury and Bristol so why do you think its such a problem for them to share Axminster to Exeter?

Because Soton/Brighton Salisbury dosent suffer from some idiot deciding to single it in the 1960s, so a late running train won't have severe knockon effects in the other direction causing consqeuent delays for hours!

The problem with Axminster to Pinhoe is that it is single track. This means both very limited capacity plus any late running holds up trains in the other direction and can ruin the entire rush hour sequence on the approach to Waterloo.

Mind you, if they want to run Barn-Ax in 2017 they need to build a loop at Whimple pronto whoever operates the trains or there won't be capacity for it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Where are they coming from?

Don't know, remember this is my opinion of what should happen, rather than a guess at what will happen. ScotRail is probably the most likely though, the new franchise is to receive almost 100 additional trains (27 IC125s for Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen/Inverness and 70 new Hitachi EMUs for routes they are electrifying) so should be able to release a fair number of DMUs.

FGW have 165s and 166s which will lose their work in a couple of years and will be looking for something to do, they cant fit on most of the Network as they are 23m long and 2.81m wide making them a bit fat, so they are going to Bristol with their 150s and 158s off to Exeter, I dont have a link but it is a very strong rumour and seems quite logical.

Speculation time-
The 166s could be reformed into 2 and 4 coach sets to increase capacity on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services (subject to platform length restrictions) with some taking over the Cardiff/Bristol-Paignton/Plymouth and Penzance services along with the 165s

I just don't think the 165s and 166s are as suitable for a long-distance semi-fast (regional express) service like Cardiff-Portsmouth as class 158s are. There will still be a fair bit of work for the 16xs to do, eg. Cheltenham-Bristol (where XC is the principal fast service) and Bristol-Weston-S.-M. (the non-electric part of Cardiff-Taunton) along with maybe the Severn Beach Line and Portishead and the various local frequency enhancement schemes arround Bristol as part of the metro proposals.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I just don't think the 165s and 166s are as suitable for a long-distance semi-fast (regional express) service like Cardiff-Portsmouth as class 158s are.

The 166s do pretty well on Paddington-Worcester-Hereford services which are long-distance semi fasts.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 166s do pretty well on Paddington-Worcester-Hereford services which are long-distance semi fasts.

Not sure about that. I've not used the route myself, but I seem to recall reading quite a few complaints that the 166s/165s on that route should all be replaced by 180s.

Mechanically speaking they are no doubt fine for such services, but those wide doors part way along the carriage mean comfort is sacrificed for reduced dwell times. In my opinion that is only an acceptable trade-off for relatively short distances, secondary services, or services with very frequent stops.

 

[berneyarms]

Because Soton/Brighton Salisbury dosent suffer from some idiot deciding to single it in the 1960s, so a late running train won't have severe knockon effects in the other direction causing consqeuent delays for hours!

The problem with Axminster to Pinhoe is that it is single track. This means both very limited capacity plus any late running holds up trains in the other direction and can ruin the entire rush hour sequence on the approach to Waterloo.

Mind you, if they want to run Barn-Ax in 2017 they need to build a loop at Whimple pronto whoever operates the trains or there won't be capacity for it.

There is sufficient room for running an additional hourly service while maintaining sufficient recovery time for the South West Trains service.

It would mean that the Pinhoe-Honiton section would be running at next to near 100% capacity.

I suspect it would require an additional dynamic loop at Whimple or Feniton (or somewhere in between) to allow sufficient scope for recovery and provide sufficient flexibility.

 

[Muzer]

Eugh. 165s/166s would be a downgrade to the already embarrassingly-bad Portsmouth/Soton-Bristol/Cardiff link:

* No air con (ARGH)
* Less comfortable seats
* Colder in the winter due to doors in the seating area.

 

[starrymarkb]

I suspect it would require an additional dynamic loop at Whimple or Feniton (or somewhere in between) to allow sufficient scope for recovery and provide sufficient flexibility.

I believe one is planned funded in part by the Cranbrook developers

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The 166s do pretty well on Paddington-Worcester-Hereford services which are long-distance semi fasts.

Oh no they don't! 166s are entirely unsuitable for Paddington-Hereford - they're unpleasant enough for Paddington to Charlbury. They might be ok for services where most traffic isn't end-to-end, but enough people travel from Hereford and Worcester to London to make a 2+3 outer-suburban unit inappropriate for the line.

 

[Xavi]

Just seen a 2-car class 150 departing Exeter for Barnstaple rammed full (you wouldn't get many more on board) at 3pm. I knew things were getting popular but 3-4pm in Devon. This rolling stock shortage is serious for sure. Electrification to release 165/6 can't come soon enough. Just as well they went for electrification five years ago, no idea where stock would have come from otherwise.

 

[Searle]

Just seen a 2-car class 150 departing Exeter for Barnstaple rammed full (you wouldn't get many more on board) at 3pm. I knew things were getting popular but 3-4pm in Devon. This rolling stock shortage is serious for sure. Electrification to release 165/6 can't come soon enough. Just as well they went for electrification five years ago, no idea where stock would have come from otherwise.

The Black Friday sales that have suddenly become popular would not have helped today!

 

[Rapidash]

Just seen a 2-car class 150 departing Exeter for Barnstaple rammed full (you wouldn't get many more on board) at 3pm. I knew things were getting popular but 3-4pm in Devon. This rolling stock shortage is serious for sure. Electrification to release 165/6 can't come soon enough. Just as well they went for electrification five years ago, no idea where stock would have come from otherwise.

Usually start being crowded at around 1430 when the college starts kick out time, gets manic between 1600 and 1730 with the regular commuters and students and mostly eases off after 1800. Welcome to most weekdays on the Devon Metro

 

[Xavi]

Usually start being crowded at around 1430 when the college starts kick out time, gets manic between 1600 and 1730 with the regular commuters and students and mostly eases off after 1800. Welcome to most weekdays on the Devon Metro

Yep I'm a regular user, but what I've seen this week has even surprised me. On Wednesday the 1050 ish arrival from Barnstaple at Exeter Central was so wedged (I was waiting to board the Exmouth service) it was bordering on dangerous, I wouldn't be surprised if passengers had been left on the platform at the likes of Crediton. Yet Oxted gets the spare Scotland DMU stock. I know there are many more areas outside London with similar issues of course; the nationwide rolling stock shortage is real.

 

[455driver]

Yep I'm a regular user, but what I've seen this week has even surprised me. On Wednesday the 1050 ish arrival from Barnstaple at Exeter Central was so wedged (I was waiting to board the Exmouth service) it was bordering on dangerous, I wouldn't be surprised if passengers had been left on the platform at the likes of Crediton. Yet Oxted gets the spare Scotland DMU stock. I know there are many more areas outside London with similar issues of course; the nationwide rolling stock shortage is real.

In what way was it dangerous?

 

[Xavi]

In what way was it dangerous?

They couldn't open the centre set of the class 143 doors at first because of people jammed up against them.

 

[455driver]

They couldn't open the centre set of the class 143 doors at first because of people jammed up against them.

That is inconvenient, not dangerous!

 

[Xavi]

That is inconvenient, not dangerous!

If you say so.

 

[FGW_Lad]

Oh no they don't! 166s are entirely unsuitable for Paddington-Hereford - they're unpleasant enough for Paddington to Charlbury. They might be ok for services where most traffic isn't end-to-end, but enough people travel from Hereford and Worcester to London to make a 2+3 outer-suburban unit inappropriate for the line.

They are unpleasant on the Paddington-Reading fasts let alone the Cotswolds services!!!

 

[RPI]

15:27 from St David's to Barnstaple is usually rammed due to being the last train before an hour and a half gap and being booked as a 2 car pacer.

 

[455driver]

If you say so.

Explain how it is dangerous then?

 

[Parallel]

Just seen a 2-car class 150 departing Exeter for Barnstaple rammed full (you wouldn't get many more on board) at 3pm. I knew things were getting popular but 3-4pm in Devon. This rolling stock shortage is serious for sure.

I was on this exact train today and it was hell, had people standing all the way from Exeter to Barnstaple. Because the crowding was so bad they were advising passengers to leave the service to take a coach that was waiting at the front of the station. Also, the track after Eggesford is a bit ropey in places so people were being thrown around the carriage a little!

Believe it or not the next train after that (the 16:57 from Exeter) was even worse, I was waiting for the 18:13 Exmouth train at Barnstaple and it arrived 10 minutes late looking actually like a sardine can. It's not acceptable really - Especially as many passengers do the end to end journey (well, as far as Exeter anyway). One thing's for sure, two car trains don't cut it on this route. I imagine 4 car pacers would struggle!

 

[Rapidash]

Its been a wee bit mental on the rails to Exeter today. Crush loaded out of Paignton this morning Hopefully the return trip is a smidge less pants-on-head!

 

[Rhydgaled]

One thing's for sure, two car trains don't cut it on this route. I imagine 4 car pacers would struggle!

Would a 3-car Networker Turbo be big enough to handle it?