Bi Directional running in the core... & other GTR problems

[Bald Rick]

A genuine question - the increase in delays seems to coincide with the new franchise. If there were 6 failed trains yesterday, how did that happen? Have they stopped carrying out maintenance, or did FCC hide all the spare parts in an act of sabotage? To have six trains fail in a day is not a very impressive statistic.

In order:

1) was caused by an OLE fault in the new sidings at cricklewood.
2) was a unit gapped on the scissors at City TL (having come from Smithfield)
3 and 4) were the same problem as per this thread. First ever failure of its type on a 12 car apparently. Closely followed by the second ever failure of its type on a 12 car.
5) was a traction problem at Kentish town (while 3 was going on so no one noticed)
6) was across Metropolitan Jn around 8pm. Doors lost interlocking I think.The glacé cherry on the icing on the three tiered cake.

Personally - and I stress that I am guessing - I think it may be because the fleet is stretched with units heading north and the 387s not quite yet arrived.

Also, starting a new franchise 2 weeks before autumn usually causes perception issues!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hadn't noticed the total crossover provision, so will pay attention to this.

Is it correct that the target train length is 12-car and the siding at Farringdon can only hold 8?

Crossovers north of St P just outside the tunnel, between St P and Farringdon in one of the Clerkenwell tunnels (just about the only straight track between the stations), just inside the tunnel between Farringdon and City (trailing only), the scissors just north of City, then crossovers just south of Blackfriars Jn.

The siding at Smithfield can only hold 8 cars. The buffer stops are about 3 metres from the ramp of the northbound platform at Farringdon, so it is non-extendable.

 

[asylumxl]

3 and 4) were the same problem as per this thread. First ever failure of its type on a 12 car apparently. Closely followed by the second ever failure of its type on a 12 car.

Not too sure about this. Before summer I had a similar experience at City Thameslink with the same service if I remember correctly.

Driver tried things to no avail. A fitter came and scratched his head. Eventually the train crawled away.

 

[DelayRepay]

As ever communication was dire.

Yes, when I went to the pub to wait, a friend went over to Kings Cross to get a train to Hatfield, having been told there were coaches being ordered to take people to St Albans (as is normal during disruption). However there were no coaches and the Uno Bus driver had not been told to accept train tickets.

I actually got home before him even though I waited in London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The other morning, there was a problem with the doors on my train. The driver announced over the tannoy asking if someone stood near the doors could give them a good kick. It seemed to work because we were able to move, but he had to repeat the request at the next station. When we got to St Pancras he made a special Thank You announcement for whoever had been dealing with the doors.

This is probably not an orthodox way of resolving problems but it seemed to work!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not too sure about this. Before summer I had a similar experience at City Thameslink with the same service if I remember correctly.

Driver tried things to no avail. A fitter came and scratched his head. Eventually the train crawled away.

Sorry I was a bit vague. The bit that failed on the train is the first failure of its type. There have been other 12 car failures - but not many.

 

[westcoaster]

In order:


Crossovers north of St P just outside the tunnel, between St P and Farringdon in one of the Clerkenwell tunnels (just about the only straight track between the stations), just inside the tunnel between Farringdon and City (trailing only), the scissors just north of City, then crossovers just south of Blackfriars Jn.

The siding at Smithfield can only hold 8 cars. The buffer stops are about 3 metres from the ramp of the northbound platform at Farringdon, so it is non-extendable.

Dock junction just outside of kings cross tunnel, midland road crossovers inside kings cross tunnel, clerkenwell crossover, snowhill crossover, apothecary St junction just south of city, blackfriars junction. Nearly right just forgot midland road.

 

[user15681]

6) was across Metropolitan Jn around 8pm. Doors lost interlocking I think.The glacé cherry on the icing on the three tiered cake.

That'll be 1T61 19:25 Bedford to Brighton, which sat down at Met Jn at about 20:47. 2T64 19:37 Brighton to Bedford left London Bridge at 20:48, unaware of the developing trouble ahead, and then had nowhere to go because of 1T61. Everything to Charing Cross pretty much stopped because of 2T64 unable to go anywhere. Not sure of the fault, but certainly the glacé cherry.

 

[Metobusfan]

I think (if I remember my traction training correctly) that the 377/2 and 377/5 use different versions of Windows OS on MITRAC. I want to say the /2's are Windows 98 but its surely not that old (though it is Bombardier... ).



Anyway, either way the software on the /2's works slower than the /5's. That much I do know though we were told all the glitches had been ironed out. Apparently not it seems.

The /2s that Thameslink have are compatible with the /5s now so I've been told

 

[jon0844]

Yes, when I went to the pub to wait, a friend went over to Kings Cross to get a train to Hatfield, having been told there were coaches being ordered to take people to St Albans (as is normal during disruption). However there were no coaches and the Uno Bus driver had not been told to accept train tickets.

I actually got home before him even though I waited in London.

That's poor, and FCC usually managed to get coaches up and running between St Albans City and Hatfield very quickly. Even when something went wrong in the evening peak where it just be quite hard to just magic up buses.

Doesn't surprise me about Uno though! GTR probably couldn't get through to Uno to tell them about the disruption in the first place!

I was at Hatfield House last Sunday and there were no trains running all day, and I was quite surprised that there were lots of people but no buses. Or should I say there were, but so few that people had a long wait.

It did seem to me that GTR isn't quite as keen or able to manage buses as was previously.

What was also funny is that one of the buses said First Capital Connect replacement service on the display. I bet the driver thought s/he was being helpful.

 

[Skimble19]

Replacement buses are still being run by First Rail Support at the moment, although this swaps to Go Ahead on Sunday so hopefully things will improve from then!

 

[causton]

Replacement buses are still being run by First Rail Support at the moment, although this swaps to Go Ahead on Sunday so hopefully things will improve from then!

Does that mean we'll see Go-Ahead London deckers dragged up to run the replacement buses?

(in some ways I hope so as they would have a bit more capacity, but in some ways maybe not!)

 

[jon0844]

Hopefully! It did look pretty poor from what I could see, although I obviously wasn't there the whole day (or at least not at the station counting buses). It's just that every other time there was planned works, there was a queue of buses ready - likewise during disruption.

 

[TheJRB]

I'm not saying it's any fun trying to get home when there's disruption, but if Thameslink really is up the creek at some point, surely it's better to seek alternative means of transport than to hang around somewhere like St Pancras, especially if you're heading south.

For example there's the 91 bus to Trafalgar Square/Charing Cross or the Northern line to London Bridge or Elephant & Castle or if all else fails and you fancy stretching your legs, walking a bit of it. I've walked from St Pancras pretty much as far as City Thameslink via Grays Inn Road and Holborn in one go and although it's quite a long walk and something you wouldn't want to do often, it's doable. Not that it should have to come to that of course!

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm not saying it's any fun trying to get home when there's disruption, but if Thameslink really is up the creek at some point, surely it's better to seek alternative means of transport than to hang around somewhere like St Pancras, especially if you're heading south.

For example there's the 91 bus to Trafalgar Square/Charing Cross or the Northern line to London Bridge or Elephant & Castle or if all else fails and you fancy stretching your legs, walking a bit of it. I've walked from St Pancras pretty much as far as City Thameslink via Grays Inn Road and Holborn in one go and although it's quite a long walk and something you wouldn't want to do often, it's doable. Not that it should have to come to that of course!

Well my normal journey is heading north, City Thameslink to St Albans. I've walked from City to St Pancras before - it's not a bad walk if it's not raining The other alternative is a short walk to Farringdon then get the tube one stop. Problem is, generally, if there's nothing running from City, there will be nothing running at St Pancras.

So my choices are:
- Wait near City (which means I can go back into the office where it is warm, dry and I can get tea, have a loo and internet access)
- Go to St Pancras and hope they're going to run northbound trains from there (occasionally happens)
- Go to Kings Cross, train to Hatfield then hope there will be a bus running across.

The problem is, without clear information from the staff it's difficult to know which is best. The last few times there have been disruption the information has not been given and/or has been incorrect.

When the wires were down at City a few weeks ago, we were sent from City to St Pancras and told trains were running north from there. Only one train actually went north which was obviously crush loaded. We were then told to go to Kentish Town where trains were being turned around. I did not risk this but people who did said there were no trains, the platforms were dangerously overcrowded and the only rail representative present was a sole member of BTP.

FCC were actually quite good at dealing with problems (to be fair, they had enough practice!). Thameslink seem less good at getting information out and putting alternatives in place.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How long does it take to do a complete reboot of the systems on a 377?

 

[David Sinnett]

It's OK to say go for bus number whatever on here. That information broadcast on the platform would have been useful to some. I've worked in the city for at least 7 years with commutes initially from Redhill but now from Bedford and have not yet been on a London bus so would not know the routes. Many times its faster walking anyway!

For the future, if a train does die in the core, how long would it take to organise wrong line running over a short section, who would need to take that decision? Nothing wrong with not stopping at a station due confusion and crowds so long as you can get another train back within a few mins.

 

[Aictos]

I don't understand why the front 4 couldn't be uncoupled and run into Smithfields then run 1W90 as a declassified 8 car and before anyone says BUT you can't leave a train unmanned in the platform let me remind them that Kings Cross has a few times at Hertford Plat 2 left a 3 car stopped at the 6 car marker which waits 20 mins or so for another 3 car to couple up to it.

Plat 2 by the way is a though platform with bi di working on Plat 2 and 1 much like the Plats at City Thameslink.

During this 20 mins, the driver who brought the first train in isn't found on the train but is elsewhere so as long as the 8 cars of 1W90 was detrained and shut off, I fail to see why this couldn't be done after all is there not a driver depot at Blackfriars?

Was there not a available driver there who could assist by taking the failure into Smithfields and have the original driver continue to Bedford?

 

[jon0844]

- Go to Kings Cross, train to Hatfield then hope there will be a bus running across.

There will always be normal buses running if you can stand to pay a few quid for a single ticket.

Sometimes free buses were already laid on, sometimes not. But if I had to go back to St Albans and get over to Hatfield, I sometimes opted to get a taxi. Cost me about £10 but was worth it (to me) for the time saved.

As soon as I could see any problems on the ECML I was usually straight off to St Pancras. I'd know that they'd pass my ticket without fuss (never a problem if you mentioned delays) so there was no point hanging around to see how things panned out, or even worrying about replacement buses. I just wanted to get home!

Depending on the timings of the trains, I sometimes got home not far off the same time as I would have done anyway (Train + Taxi vs Train + Bus). I was a bit out of pocket, but in ten years I probably had to do this no more than 10 times!

 

[Bald Rick]

During this 20 mins, the driver who brought the first train in isn't found on the train but is elsewhere so as long as the 8 cars of 1W90 was detrained and shut off, I fail to see why this couldn't be done after all is there not a driver depot at Blackfriars?

Was there not a available driver there who could assist by taking the failure into Smithfields and have the original driver continue to Bedford?

No spare driver. And in 99.5% of occasions, it is quicker not to split the train and attempt to shunt. Unfortunately on this occasion no one understood that until it was too late. And you can understand why, when the piece of kit that failed had never failed before.

 

[westcoaster]

No spare driver. And in 99.5% of occasions, it is quicker not to split the train and attempt to shunt. Unfortunately on this occasion no one understood that until it was too late. And you can understand why, when the piece of kit that failed had never failed before.

Are you able to say what it was.

 

[Abpj17]

DY444 - what is more distinct for TL, is that the one line in each direction core is also where the power source changes. This is routinely where fault on trains are discovered. (It’s also running under some of the more expensive real estate in the country for parts)

w230 - you’ve been lucky as a driver Rick’s 4-5 times a year is closer e.g. for standstill of an hour or more. To have what should have been 50+50 minutes of train journey double to 50+(40)+50+(60) is, however, pretty impressive...

tho fwiw, blackfriars announcements only mentioned buses and tubes, nothing about EMT - think they were hoping it would be quicker to fix than it was

Taunton - experts will correct, but a material number of the TL trains are mixed stock each batch of four coaches will be the same, but it’s common for the two or three sets of four not to match.

jonmorris: “There will always be normal buses running if you can stand to pay a few quid for a single ticket.” can’t use cash on buses anymore bit of a pain if no oyster or contactless…(or did you mean hatfield to st albans)

 

[DelayRepay]

jonmorris: “There will always be normal buses running if you can stand to pay a few quid for a single ticket.” can’t use cash on buses anymore bit of a pain if no oyster or contactless…(or did you mean hatfield to st albans)

He meant from Hatfield. He's obviously right, there are the normal buses - in fact FCC used to arrange for the normal buses to accept tickets until/as well as running their own coaches. Problem is, if lots of people decide to use Hatfield the normal buses would quickly fill up.

FCC used to be very quick to get Uno etc. to accept their tickets, and used to refund any bus fares in addition to delay repay if there was a mis-understanding with the bus driver. Thameslink don't seem so quick to do this.

As someone said above, the problem is probably that TL thought this broken train would be moved quickly so they didn't think alternative routes would be needed - but as bald rick has explained the problem was somewhat unusual.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you able to say what it was.

Post #20 has the answer.

 

[westcoaster]

Post #20 has the answer.

answering my own question and still none the wiser lol.

 

[FlippyFF]

Good to see that lessons learned have been put into practice today.

 

[Class377]

You beat me to it! Looks like a bad one all round today, several services running about an hour late!

 

[user15681]

No wires or 377 issues today... some poorly 319s with a rather uncommon fault from what I hear.

 

[Metobusfan]

A 319 what had smoke coming from drivers cab

 

[W230]

No wires or 377 issues today... some poorly 319s with a rather uncommon fault from what I hear.

Yip. Its very broken. Took nearly 2hrs to get it moved. The word at the depot was a major flashover at City Thameslink during DC/AC changeover. Whatever it was they couldn't get it moved!

For those complaining about bi-di not being used last time, it was today though there want really any other choice as had to get units round the failed unit. But like Bald_rick commented up thread, the bi-di does cause havoc on the platforms. Certainly at Blackfriars anyway. I brought a 12 car in the up direction on the down snow hill and ended up having a bizarre discussion with a posh city type who kept telling me it was going to Brighton. I did explain the platform board said Bedford and that I was driving from the wrong end for Brighton but he wasn't having it. "No you're mistaken. Brighton trains use this platform!"
"Yes but...ah never mind then. You take it then..."

 

[jon0844]

A 319 what had smoke coming from drivers cab

So a driver decided to have a crafty fag? What of it?!

 

[user15681]

Yip. Its very broken. Took nearly 2hrs to get it moved. The word at the depot was a major flashover at City Thameslink during DC/AC changeover. Whatever it was they couldn't get it moved!

For those complaining about bi-di not being used last time, it was today though there want really any other choice as had to get units round the failed unit. But like Bald_rick commented up thread, the bi-di does cause havoc on the platforms. Certainly at Blackfriars anyway. I brought a 12 car in the up direction on the down snow hill and ended up having a bizarre discussion with a posh city type who kept telling me it was going to Brighton. I did explain the platform board said Bedford and that I was driving from the wrong end for Brighton but he wasn't having it. "No you're mistaken. Brighton trains use this platform!"
"Yes but...ah never mind then. You take it then..."

Aye, I was caught up in it. Reason I heard was similar to what Metobusfan says and sounds like that could add up with what you say, although this wasn't being announced or even relayed to staff. It ended up at something like 3 hours in the end, as the two units left the platform at City TL and got no further than a couple of metres out the platform before stopping again. Train failed at 09:54 and first train through platform 1 after that looks like just after 13:00.

Single line working was implemented for a while I think, then stopped at around 12:15 with nothing moving for around 20 minutes, then resumed around 12:40. Yes, it might normally be the Brighton platform but if the driver is telling you he's going to Bedford...