And they say Rail ticketing and connections are confusing

[Z12XE]

I don't do buses (expect when on rail replacement) but t'other night in the pub I was talking to someone and he pointed this out to me:

Its from the Chambers Buses website

There will no no through buses or tickets between Colchester & Bury St Edmunds. All passengers must change buses @ Sudbury & buy another Ticket for onward travel.

Holders of Essex County Council Concessionary Travel Passes will need to pay for travel beyond Sudbury.

And

There will be no through buses or tickets between Sudbury & Bury St Edmunds. Passengers must change buses @ Clare & buy another ticket for onward travel.

Whats even more amusing, some of the hours the bus kicks out its passenger in Sudbury bus station, waits 5 minutes then shunts forward and picks that person up again who's waiting for the bus which was previously a through bus.

Looks like someone is after some council subisdy, and attempting a scam of the 'free' bus pass.......

 

[yorkie]

I don't get it. How does this scam work? Does the bus company get more money if it's not a through bus? If so, why? :-?

 

[Z12XE]

In the same way that splitting a Standard or Cheap Day Return or Single Ticket on the railways would work out more.

For example the fare from Sudbury to Ipswich on the train is about £7, but if it was forced that you need to book to Colchester then from there to Ipswich it would be about £11

In terms of the 'free' pensioners pass, councils only pay 80% of the fare to the bus operator - this way those making cross boundary trips would need to 'pay' twice, therefore allowing the bus company to take 80% off both councils

The only market this service has anymore is those over 60 heading to which is why the split has been introduced where it has, its nothing more than revenue extraction from Suffolk CC for a failing service

 

[Mojo]

I don't know the actual distance involved, but in the past year, EU legislation has said that routes over 50km must now be operated by vehicles with tachographs and with limited driving hours.

Quote from VOSA: "By simply changing the driver this wouldn't 'get round' the provisions of the regulations – it would still be the same service. There are bus companies who have divided services up into smaller parts, but these smaller parts must be services in their own right." This includes a ban on through ticketing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7107057.stm

Given this, even large operators such as First have truncated some routes to save money.

As I've said, I don't know the distances involved here, so it could just be they are trying to get more money by getting people to pay twice. In the past, some operators were known to register a number of routes that all linked up to increase their fuel duty rebate.

Of couse fuel duty rebate is now on the way out and is to be replaced by a rebate based on numbers of passengers carried. The idea is to encourage operators to increase patronage of buses by whatever means possible. http://www.transporttimes.co.uk/;news;item/12/382/

 

[Nym]

So routes like the 555 in cumbria are a bit screwed then

 

[Nick W]

This is a terrible disgrace, and those in charge such companies should be prosecuted.

This simply isn't fair to law abiding motorists whose tax subsidises such greedy schemes.

 

[Tom B]

Mojo is correct, routes over a given distance are now subject to more stringent rules. I'm told that the services must be entirely different, so interworking or through ticketing is not allowed.

 

[Metroland]

It is indeed true.

I also understand that most bus companies are out of pocket because of the free pensioner bus travel scheme.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/10/transport.buses

One interesting quote

'Buses are a politically sensitive issue, accounting for only 6% of journeys but forming a key concern for an elderly population of 11 million people that represents around a third of the country's voters. The cabinet office receives more letters from the public on buses than any other topic.'

 

[Tom B]

Indeed. Whilst it varies between local authorities, it is quite clear that carrying an OAP generates less revenue than a fare-payer.

(This is extremely annoying when you have to stand and pay 2 quid for the privilege, because the non-paying OAPs have barged in front of everyone and taken all the seats)

I seem to remember LRT quoting a figure of 45p per passenger.

 

[Metroland]

That's happened to me several times.

'Routes that are extremely popular with older and disabled people [but not with paying passengers] will not be able to cover their costs even if buses are full," said the CPT. "There is a very real danger that the most visible effect of the government's generosity to older and disabled people will be a substantial shrinking of England's bus network."

The Government have messed up here (again), they should have issued 1 free pass per week, which still amounts to 52 passes per year. As a comparison rail employees used to get (and still do in some cases) 16 free passes per year....Before the TOCs started charging other companies hundreds for the privileged, whereas in BR days it was completely free, merely filling seats that would have been empty in a rationed way.

All routes passes are fine if the amount levied covers costs, but it's clear that the government have got their sums wrong.

'The Local Government Association has also warned that local authorities are feeling the pain too, because the near £1bn they receive to pay for free travel will not be enough to pay bus operators in areas popular with daytrippers and shoppers. According to the LGA, 30 councils plan to cut services or raise taxes in order to close the funding gap, including Worthing council, which must find £600,000'.

That said, the bus companies are on a bit of a whine, because surely most of these buses would have been running empty at a loss anyway?

 

[Tom B]

Some buses are run specially for OAPs. For example, a bus which might run back to the depot after a peak hour service now runs on for another hour or so to cover the OAP-Peak.

Or, we have a route in Doncaster which could cope with a small Dart or similar. However, the 0900 journey has a huge number of OAPs using the 0900 departure. Because of this, the bus allocated to the board must be a double decker, not a Dart, which means increased fuel consumption.

Regrettably, the person who suffers is invariably the fare-payer.

 

[Mojo]

Tell me about it, the whole concept of giving free travel to over 60s, no questions asked, and the disabled is completely flawed.

First of all the rebate given to bus operators is significantly lower than the previous half fare arrangement, meaning bus operators are having difficulty to cover their costs, meaning, as Tom has said, they have to increase fares or cut costs. Even more worryingly, concessionary fare schemes for students are also having their benefits slashed.

Secondly, local authorities are not being given enough money for covering their costs. Even Tyne & Wear, which will recieve the highest central grant per capita is expecting a £5.4 million black hole.[1] This will affect services such as parks and public conveniences, and, ironically home help services for the elderly.[2]

It's also generally an unfair system which allows wealthy over 60s to get free bus travel, whereby students who might not be entitled to free bus passes (including all over 16s) have to pay very close to full whack. This increases economic downturn in some areas as those in poorer families simply can not afford access to their place of education.

There is also a lack of proof that free bus travel has reduced car traffic on our roads, compared to the overwhelming evidence that free travel for under 16s (and under 18s in fulltime education) in Greater London has not only reduced demand for "Mum, will you pick me up, please" car traffic, but also made many passholders less likely to get a car in the medium term.

[1]http://www.twpta.gov.uk/wps/wcm/con...PTA+-+News+-+Press+Release+-+Bus+services+cut
[2]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3434377.ece

 

[Nym]

This has to be the thickest scheme ever!

There was nothing wrong with half fares, when Stagecoach Hull was still on the council's fare rules, anything you could get any kind of conssesion for was a half...

Kids where 28's

Going into town it would be a 28 and a half (which coincidentaly was 50p) and the council paid it back on a ticket for ticket basis. Why should old pepole, who get free money off the goverment that we're proberbly never going to see the way pentions are going at central goverment, get free travel, in addition to free money and free everything else, then have the right to say that we're doing things wrong as paying passengers.

The very very irritating thing is when somone has a go at me (especialy old pepole) for sitting in the priorioty seating, which under the passenger's charter I am entitled to do, as I somtimes have great difficulty even moving, let alone walking, I once had a perfectly able bodied old woman demand my seat when there was a pair of free priority seats behind me, I just pretended to be deaf, works a charm

Bring back the old way of working with half fares, but make it need a pass and for anyone with an income under a certain level, and while the're at it, shove the YP discounts onto the GMPTE County Cards, young pepole need to get places quicker by train too, not just commuters!

?</RANT>

 

[Tom B]

Regrettably, they are still entitled to a seat as they have a valid ticket to be on the vehicle.

 

[Metroland]

Although I would add its not just young and old, its people in the middle that might not be on huge incomes. Why should a young or old person from a wealthy background get discounts on bus and train tickets, and everyone else has to pay full wack?

 

[Tom B]

Every system has winners and losers.

There was a campaign here to get mature students, student rate on buses a while ago, as the current entitlement to student rate is based on age + status. And this is on the UK's best operator - whatever you set the boundries as, you will have winners and losers.

 

[Mojo]

I also find it absurd that someone on the New Deal gets cheaper travel on the Tube than an under 18.

 

[Nym]

Regrettably, they are still entitled to a seat as they have a valid ticket to be on the vehicle.

no the're not

The're entitled to travel on that vehicle until the ticket expired and/or the service ends and/or the distance traveled exceded that of the permissons of the ticket, the conditions of carrage say nothing about having a seat, the same with NR

 

[Mojo]

Yes, that is what Tom B was saying. They are entitled to a seat on the vehicle if they should find a seat before someone else.