Northern Rail train late / missed connection

[DelayRepay]

let the teddies fly..... back to the topic.

As i have stated before i had a valid ticket... It was sold by Cross country.

You had a valid ticket for the Cross Country train, but you missed that train and therefore caught a Virgin train instead. You did not have a valid ticket for the Virgin train which is why you were charged again. Virgin will not have received any money from your original ticket so it is reasonable for them to charge you.

Turning to the tickets you bought, I can understand your concerns about the website, but unfortunately the website does not know that you intended to use all the tickets to make one journey.

How would the website have known which train you planned to catch to Manchester, since it appears that the ticket you chose for that journey would have been valid on earlier trains.

When you spoke to the staff, did you adopt the same attitude as you have in this thread? If you did, it's no real surprise that they charged you for a replacement ticket.

 

[ab1]

I wasn't rude at all; i was polite.

I'm glad you agree on the concerns with the website.

I will be reviewing the way i book tickets in the future. (split ticketing). Obviously their are a few glitches to avoid.

Can i still get a refund as my tickets that are unused.


Thanks.

 

[Starmill]

No. Advance tickets are not refundable. Also you have been told how to get better deals using split ticketing, and the chief answer is right here. If you're not going to appreciate that, stop posting. If you are, great, there are people here who can help you next time.

 

[ab1]

oh dear... Advance tickets are not refundable.

I wonder if the Airline industry operates like these cartels. !

Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

oh dear... Advance tickets are not refundable.

Indeed. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear!

I wonder if the Airline industry operates like these cartels. !

I believe the airline industry does operate on a similar basis.

I'd stick to the train, but bear in mind the following:-

1) If you are making a return journey, then the £108 Off Peak Return (SVR) including via London (LU included) is hard to beat (unless there are cheap through Advance fares). The peak restrictions only apply from Manchester to London early morning, and from London to Manchester early morning and late afternoon/early evening (full details here), with no restrictions whatsoever between Bolton & Manchester or between London & Southampton.
2) If you are making a single journey, then there are significant savings to be had by "splitting" if you use CrossCountry, but I'd suggest using a website such as trainsplit.com to at least identify a valid itinerary (you may also want to book through them if you're happy with the savings). Feel free to book each ticket yourself (you may be able to save even more) but make sure the itinerary is definitely given for a through journey, and print the itinerary and bring it with you.
3) The above applies for this particular journey, but for advice about any other journey don't hesitate to ask in the Fares Advice & Policy section, where we can give the best possible advice before any tickets are bought.

 

[DownSouth]

I wonder if the OP is mistakenly under the impression that this is an official forum and that the forum moderators are employees of a rail operator?

I believe the airline industry does operate on a similar basis.

Some aspects are similar, but airline passengers have two things in their favour - EU legislation establishing passengers' rights and genuine competition.

The OP is mistaken when they refer to rail operators as a cartel. In the main (i.e. there are only a few routes with competition provided by different operators) rail operators are worse because they are monopolies, and largely unregulated monopolies at that.

 

[SickyNicky]

Getting the minimum connection time wrong, or not double checking train times, is easily done and I've done it myself in the past.

Booking split advances is fraught with dangers if you're not really careful unless you use a service like ours that does it for you, in which case you will be covered. The experts on this forum will understand that and be able to do it properly, but Joe Public may find it harder and may not even know about such things as minimum connection times.

 

[bb21]

Getting the minimum connection time wrong, or not double checking train times, is easily done and I've done it myself in the past.

Booking split advances is fraught with dangers if you're not really careful unless you use a service like ours that does it for you, in which case you will be covered. The experts on this forum will understand that and be able to do it properly, but Joe Public may find it harder and may not even know about such things as minimum connection times.

Absolutely, which brings me back to the point I made in Post 31. All money-saving tricks place their own unique obligations on the passenger and unfortunately it is up to the passenger to ensure that he has the correct tickets and a suitable itinerary for his needs.

Perhaps the OP would like to take this matter up with whoever he learned about the trick of "split-ticketing" from?

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Some aspects are similar, but airline passengers have two things in their favour - EU legislation establishing passengers' rights and genuine competition.

The OP is mistaken when they refer to rail operators as a cartel. In the main (i.e. there are only a few routes with competition provided by different operators) rail operators are worse because they are monopolies, and largely unregulated monopolies at that.

There is a great article in RailProfessional by Andrew Meaney from Oxera about why these monopolies suit the regulators' purposes.

http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=2163

As Alfred Kahn, who was responsible for dereregulating the US airline market and thereby supposedly saving US consumers $20 billion a year, said:

“regulation tends inherently to be protective of monopoly, passive, negative and unimaginative.”

 

[Greenback]

oh dear... Advance tickets are not refundable.

I wonder if the Airline industry operates like these cartels. !

Thanks.

From what I know of the airline industry, airline passengers have even less protection than rail passengers.

I'm quite interested in how you knew that these tickets could be booked? Did you learn about split tickets from an article in the media? It looks as though you are quite knowledgeable about rail travel, but were just missing the key piece of the jigsaw which is the bit about minimum connection times.

 

[ab1]

done a bit of travelling on the train in my student days to London and out back North..... but not getting on time was sometimes ok (manageable).....

never heard of the 10 minute rule or 1 hour rules but will take these points onboard and the split ticketing which i have mentioned already.

I think you will find the Airlines are appreciative if your plane is runing late...
well it has happened to me....

Cartels/monopolies have the same traits.....:roll:

but even for the guy on the street the fares are a bit on the expensive side thsesdays so not my preferred option of travel; and certainly not after this event.

Thanks.

 

[Tetchytyke]

oh dear... Advance tickets are not refundable.

I wonder if the Airline industry operates like these cartels. !

Ryanair will charge you £160 to change the name on a reservation. They'll charge you £110 per person to change a booking to another plane if you're late to the airport. If you book legs separately then they won't help if you miss a connecting flight.

 

[Greenback]

If I have two separate tickets for a flight, the first from, say, Bristol to Amsterdam with Easyjet, and a second from Amsterdam to New York with KLM, I wouldn't expect the latter to allow me to fly on the next available flight if my first flight was delayed or rescheduled.

I'd expect them to regard me a s no show and cancel all my booked flights as a result, and for them to charge me for a new ticket when I did arrive. This would be regardless of the MCT for that particular airport. Yes, airport shave minimum connection times too, and if you book a flight on one ticket the system will not show options that don't observe it, just like if you booked one through journey on a rail booking website.

Of course, you can manually book as many segments as you want, cheerfully ignoring the MCT and the same thing could happen to anyone who does that as has happened to you on the train. And many have done exactly that, to their cost.

I suppose there's a slight chance in my example above that the airline might have mercy on me, but I wouldn't expect it and it would be very much a bonus if it did happen. At least the railway has agreed that passengers will not have to buy another ticket if they split them and their first train is delayed, but that is subject to the MCT as we have already discussed.

So, no, I can't agree that the airline are somehow superior, sorry!

If you stick around here, you will find a great deal of agreement that fares are on the high side, particularly for walk up tickets. you'll also find a lot of useful information about saving money in totally legitimate ways.

We really aren't as passenger unfriendly as you may think as they vast majority of contributors and staff are just that - passengers!

 

[northwichcat]

From what I know of the airline industry, airline passengers have even less protection than rail passengers.

I think it's 3 hours delay with an airline before you're entitled to compensation, although most air routes are much longer than the average domestic train journey.

Airlines are likely to have to pay out more in the future following some high profile court case loses for Ryanair and Jet2 when they refused compensation.

If I have two separate tickets for a flight, the first from, say, Bristol to Amsterdam with Easyjet, and a second from Amsterdam to New York with KLM, I wouldn't expect the latter to allow me to fly on the next available flight if my first flight was delayed or rescheduled.

No but on occasions there are codesharing agreements which means you can travel on a different airline's connecting flight and be allowed to travel on a later flight if your connecting flight is delayed. AFAIK codesharing agreements aren't available with any budget airlines though.

 

[bb21]

No but on occasions there are codesharing agreements which means you can travel on a different airline's connecting flight and be allowed to travel on a later flight if your connecting flight is delayed. AFAIK codesharing agreements aren't available with any budget airlines though.

Not if booked on separate tickets, even if operated by the same airline.

You will be relying on their goodwill if things go wrong on the first flight, as I found out to the tune of £500 a few years ago. I have not flown with Lufthansa since.

I have opted for other airlines even if they are £20-30 pricier.

 

[Greenback]

I think it's 3 hours delay with an airline before you're entitled to compensation, although most air routes are much longer than the average domestic train journey.

Airlines are likely to have to pay out more in the future following some high profile court case loses for Ryanair and Jet2 when they refused compensation.

I'm not sure about the length of time before compensation kick in, but EU Regulation 261 will, I hope, help airlines to raise their game in regard to cancellations, if not delays due to avoidable issues.

No but on occasions there are codesharing agreements which means you can travel on a different airline's connecting flight and be allowed to travel on a later flight if your connecting flight is delayed. AFAIK codesharing agreements aren't available with any budget airlines though.

In my view, codesharing arrangements are just ways for certain airline partners (often part of the same operating alliance) to reduce costs by working together on a route. it's a different thing to through or separate ticketing. Though you may be allowed tot ravel on a different airline if they have the first flight out after you have been delayed on an incoming flight as long as you have a through ticket, not separate ones.

In the OP's example, he would have been allowed to travel on an alternative service had there been one available and had he observed the MCT with his split tickets. This would not have been possible with air travel.

It's right to say that budget airlines tend not to co-operate with anyone else. Their business model is built on simplicity.

 

[northwichcat]

In my view, codesharing arrangements are just ways for certain airline partners (often part of the same operating alliance) to reduce costs by working together on a route. it's a different thing to through or separate ticketing. Though you may be allowed tot ravel on a different airline if they have the first flight out after you have been delayed on an incoming flight as long as you have a through ticket, not separate ones.

If you search for Manchester to Heathrow flights there's only two operators - BA and Virgin Atlantic (operated by Aer Lingus). However, there's flight codes for Iberia, American Airlines, Air New Zealand, Delta, Cathay Pacific, South Africian Airways, Qantas and possibly more. Some of those airlines serve Manchester and others don't.

Interestingly I've noticed TAP operate direct Manchester-Lisbon flights and they also offer through indirect flights via Heathrow, selling seats on both the BA and Virgin flights between Manchester but don't seem to have a codesharing agreement with either BA or Virgin.

 

[Llanigraham]

but even for the guy on the street the fares are a bit on the expensive side thsesdays so not my preferred option of travel; and certainly not after this event.

Thanks.

And yet passenger numbers are on the up, and have been for the last couple of years!

 

[Greenback]

If you search for Manchester to Heathrow flights there's only two operators - BA and Virgin Atlantic (operated by Aer Lingus). However, there's flight codes for Iberia, American Airlines, Air New Zealand, Delta, Cathay Pacific, South Africian Airways, Qantas and possibly more. Some of those airlines serve Manchester and others don't.

Interestingly I've noticed TAP operate direct Manchester-Lisbon flights and they also offer through indirect flights via Heathrow, selling seats on both the BA and Virgin flights between Manchester but don't seem to have a codesharing agreement with either BA or Virgin.

I'm not too sure about the details, but there was some sort of ruling or agreement because of the competition commission or some similar type body that applies to BA and Virgin out of LHR. It comes, I think, form when BA took over some slots at the airport that were used by another company. Permission was only granted provided that Ba accepted certain conditions designed to ensure that some sort of competition was maintained.

 

[bb21]

BA had to sell some landing slots at LHR after the takeover of BMI, which VS objected to vehemently.

 

[Greenback]

Ah, I knew somebody would be more clued up about it than me!

 

[ab1]

Population has gone up so passenger numbers would go up.

I'll have to sell my return ticket at least i can get some money back.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Population has gone up so passenger numbers would go up.

I'll have to sell my return ticket at least i can get some money back.

Thanks.

Unfortunately what you will find is that tickets are not transferrable, and websites such as ebay will not permit such listings.

What tickets do you have for the return portion? If they are not Advance fares, they should be eligible for a refund, less a £10 admin fee.

 

[Merseysider]

Population has gone up so passenger numbers would go up.

I'll have to sell my return ticket at least i can get some money back.

Thanks.

I'm afraid selling tickets on is illegal.

 

[Llanigraham]

Population has gone up so passenger numbers would go up.

I'll have to sell my return ticket at least i can get some money back.

Thanks.

Sorry to sink your boat, but as an example, passenger numbers in Wales has increased far more than the population.
Perhaps before you make comments you need to do find out the facts.

 

[yorkie]

I think this thread has run its course.

ab1 - we can help you get a better deal for future journeys, but sorry there is nothing we can do about this one.

 

[Greenback]

You'll get a lot of help here if you want it ab1, just look on this experience as an expensive lesson learnt that could potentially benefit you in the future, and save you more than you have had to pay out this time.

I know it will be difficult to feel positive at the moment, but I hope you will continue using trains and this forum to find out how to travel for less.

 

[ab1]

yep lesson learned but will look at wider options next time.

I look forward to waitng another 15 days for a reply from Northern rail; I'm sure they have a large customer services team...


I'm sure my ticket was off peak return the one i bought. So would i get anything back less the admin fee.

Thanks.

 

[Emyr]

yep lesson learned but will look at wider options next time.

I look forward to waitng another 15 days for a reply from Northern rail; I'm sure they have a large customer services team...


I'm sure my ticket was off peak return the one i bought. So would i get anything back less the admin fee.

Thanks.

Possibly the difference between the price of an off-peak return and the off-peak single to cover the part you did use... Bugger all.

 

[island]

BA had to sell some landing slots at LHR after the takeover of BMI, which VS objected to vehemently.

Virgin has not however been able to make anything of its domestic routes and is killing them off next year.