Northern Rail train late / missed connection

[bb21]

If the OP is not willing to supply details regarding the tickets he held (which I first asked for in Post 7) then there is simply nothing else we can suggest.

This is also what irks me about some of the media these days publishing all the tricks one can play with rail fare without any mention of the obligations these tricks put on the passenger, hence potentially putting them in the dark brown stuff when things go wrong.

Anyone (or at least the overwhelming majority) who learned about split-ticketing on this forum would be aware of the requirement for a valid itinerary.

 

[Statto]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

Tough you gave yourself a connection which is not valid, due to minimum connection time of 10 minutes, had you caught the earlier 1735 TPE from Bolton, your connection would have been valid, therefore you're not entitled to any compensation.

 

[185]

One thing I would consider relevant is the publication of minimum interchange times.

Whilst some companies act responsibly, and publish these in multiple forms of information, some train companies seem to not publish them anywhere. Last year, really struggled to find the Stoke on Trent MIC time on LMs, XCs, or Virgin's website or literature.

Only relevant web search results kept bringing me to some rail forum website

 

[Flamingo]

Common sense must come in to it as well (I know, I know). I had somebody last week who thought that two minutes between their arrival at Reading and the train to wherever was a connection, and would not be told otherwise.

 

[455driver]

Common sense must come in to it as well (I know, I know). I had somebody last week who thought that two minutes between their arrival at Reading and the train to wherever was a connection, and would not be told otherwise.

Thanks, I have just spat my tea all over the monitor!

 

[DelayRepay]

This is also what irks me about some of the media these days publishing all the tricks one can play with rail fare without any mention of the obligations these tricks put on the passenger, hence potentially putting them in the dark brown stuff when things go wrong.

You are right (obviously!); I split my tickets to save money but always allow plenty of time for connections (over the advertised time). This might make my journey take longer than it needs to, but on the other hand I don't have the worry of having to run between platforms, or trying to argue my case to be allowed on a later train. And if I do end up with time to kill at the interchange, it gives me chance to buy a coffee and maybe a small snack for the onward journey.

 

[455driver]

You are right (obviously!); I split my tickets to save money but always allow plenty of time for connections (over the advertised time). This might make my journey take longer than it needs to, but on the other hand I don't have the worry of having to run between platforms, or trying to argue my case to be allowed on a later train. And if I do end up with time to kill at the interchange, it gives me chance to buy a coffee and maybe a small snack for the onward journey.

Surely buying a few cups of coffee at stations negate the savings made on the split tickets?

 

[DelayRepay]

Surely buying a few cups of coffee at stations negate the savings made on the split tickets?

Yes, but it represents a saving compared to buying on board

 

[Flamingo]

Well if you bring a flask...

 

[DelayRepay]

Well if you bring a flask...

... I can get away with a 2 minute connection at Reading?

And if it all ends in tears, I'll just tell them "that man" said it would be OK.

 

[Merseysider]

Yes, but it represents a saving compared to buying on board

You should buy your coffee from the Trainline, 80% off!

 

[DelayRepay]

You should buy your coffee from the Trainline, 80% off!

I did but it caused no end of chaos when I tried to collect it from the TVM...

 

[yorkie]

I think this thread has run its course.

ab1 - please send me a PM if you have anything to add.

 

[ab1]

Appologies for not sending details i have been working late.

For those who are wondering how i got from Euston to Southampton i got a lift of a friend from London the next day heading that way. I simply couldn't bear the thought of any additional cost to my journey :cry:

The train tickets were bought through Cross Country website picked up at Bolton self service ticket machine...

"Single"
Bolton -> Piccadilly "OFF Peak Day"
Pccadilly --> Banbury "Standard Advance"
Banbury --> Reading "Standard Advance"
Reading --> Southampton "Standard Advance"

Now the Fexi-fare didn't consider i have taken this route before before and never had a problem getting across platforms before.....

First time i have heard of this 10 minute rule.... i don't see it publicised and never heard of since my student days.... (felt i needed a change got a car) but if train operators can get away with delays upto an hour why do we keep mentioning these 10 minutes....

Incidentally Nothern Rail have replied back and said it was "vandalism that caused the delay to the train". Not sure why the train appered to stop about 3 times.....

So i have asked for futher clariffication as the supporting information was thin on the ground unless this is covered off by official secrets act UK.

ahh...yes they do have upto a futher 20 days to reply.:roll:

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Thanks.

Unfortunately as you booked Advance tickets, it is your responsibility to arrive at the starting station of your journey in good time. Since this is not a valid itinerary, you would be unable to claim that this is all one journey in its entirety.

While you have my sympathy because it is a lot of money to have to pay out unexpectedly, I think it is clear from the available information that unfortunately you do not have a valid claim against either Northern or Virgin in this case, so it may be best to just write it off as a lesson learned.

While the information on minimum station interchange times is slightly awkward to find, tools are available to help you decide whether your proposed itinerary is valid and possible. You can enter your journey requirements into any journey planner and as anecdotal evidence showed me on the first day of your enquiry, no journey planner would offer me any later connection than the 1735 from Bolton.

If you book split tickets from a website, it is unable to consider them as one journey generally speaking because it would be impossible to tell whether all tickets are for travel by the same person.

I'm sorry I can't give you any better news but at least now you know for next time. All money saving techniques come with their own conditions and "hazards" which is not made clear to many people by the irresponsible media.

 

[ab1]

I had a valid itenary... booked through a major train operating company (Cross country). surely the website engine can be tweaked as to whether or not all the the tickets are for travel by the same person; i would have expected this was the default.

The the train operators don't want us to use split ticketing that's why they make it dilieberately difficult.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

I had a valid itenary... booked through a major train operating company (Cross country). surely the website engine can be tweaked as to whether or not all the the tickets are for travel by the same person; i would have expected this was the default.

The the train operators don't want us to use split ticketing that's why they make it dilieberately difficult.

Thanks.

I have no intention to get into a verbal slanging match of "No, you don't." and "Yes, I do." repetition.

I have given you my verdict. As to whether you had a valid itinerary, that is quite definitive and you will not likely get a different answer wherever you go.

If you think that there are things the CrossCountry website can do to improve matters then feel free to suggest it to them. The bottom line as far as I am aware is that they are under no obligation to offer split ticketing or check your itinerary under split ticket arrangements. If you think this is wrong, then you will have to take this up with the government. I have also given you one of the reasons why this would not be feasible without additional information being extracted from the passenger.

Of course you can spend more time pursuing this if you wish, and that is entirely your decisions, but in my opinion, and I believe the same applies to the overwhelming majority of people here and on other forums, it is simply not worth it.

 

[455driver]

I find the easiest way to book split tickets is to put a full journey in from start station to destination and see what it gives, then use the same times to see where to split, all the calling points and times are there to write down at the beginning. Quite easy really and it will ensure I comply with all these (apparent) secret connection times!
But then what do I know, I have only been interested in railways for 35 years!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had a valid itenary... booked through a major train operating company (Cross country). surely the website engine can be tweaked as to whether or not all the the tickets are for travel by the same person; i would have expected this was the default.

The the train operators don't want us to use split ticketing that's why they make it dilieberately difficult.

Thanks.

No you didnt!
You booked several single, separate journeys, that is a fact!
You can book trains that leave an hour before you actually arrive at that station because you booked individual sections and didnt allow the required connection time, they are the rules, you tried to be clever and failed but wont see it and are just wasting yours and everyone elses time.

Some posters on this forum are very good with railway tickets (not me ) and even they are saying you got it wrong but you just wont believe it!

 

[yorkie]

There is a chance XC may have honoured the tickets on later trains, I suspect many TMs would agree if they were approached politely and shown the full tickets purchased and that a delay was explained, and if it was realised that the appropriate connection time wasn't allowed, an apologetic "sorry, I had no idea" would possibly have sufficed.

However given travel was made on Virgin Trains, I am not at all surprised Virgin asked for a new ticket to be bought (which would have been £78.70 single/£79.70 return to London, or £105.50 single/£106.50 return to Southampton), and there is no case for any sort of refund or compensation.

I find the easiest way to book split tickets is to put a full journey in from start station to destination and see what it gives,....

I agree, and a good site to try this with is trainsplit.com!

 

[ab1]

I'm glad someone from experience is talking rather than these moderators; I'm not sure about the impartiality.

since when has any organization acted in the general interests of the consumer it always take an amount of lobbying but i doubt we will have the support of these moderators.

Thanks.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm glad someone from experience is talking rather than these moderators; I'm not sure about the impartiality.

since when has any organization acted in the general interests of the consumer it always take an amount of lobbying but i doubt we will have the support of these moderators.

Thanks.

"These moderators" have run the forum for a decade, and some members of staff on here have been railway employees since the 1990s and earlier. To suggest the moderators are not of experience, nor will support improvements to the rights of the customer, is a fallacy. Why ask for advice if you're going to argue against it anyway?

 

[maniacmartin]

Would you prefer if the moderators told you what you wanted to hear even if it was wrong?

Whatever a moderator's opinion is won't change the facts

 

[455driver]

Watch out for those low flying teddies Yorkie/BB21!

OH ab1, the onus is on you to have a valid tickets(s) for your journey, you didnt have them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm glad someone from experience is talking rather than these moderators; I'm not sure about the impartiality.

since when has any organization acted in the general interests of the consumer it always take an amount of lobbying but i doubt we will have the support of these moderators.

Thanks.

Those Moderators are very knowledgeable indeed, you have been here 5 minutes and because you dont like the (correct) answers you start casting aspersions against the Moderators, maybe you need to take those blinkers off and read what is actually written, you might actually learn something useful!

If you look through some other threads on here you will actually see that the Moderators are very quick to advise people about their rights and what their next course of action should be to ensure they get the best possible outcome!
In your case that isnt possible BECAUSE YOU GOT IT WRONG!

 

[Starmill]

The OP has found the Fares Advice forum now for future reference, so it is almost certain that for this sort of journey they will be able to receive further guidance on saving money without contravening rules that cost them money as in this case. You could also look at splitting at Bristol and changing at Newport S Wales to avoid time restrictions if you wish. (Bolton to Bristol is really expensive as an Any Permitted, but a Via Hereford option exists, only £45 single for travel by any train over two days). Sadly the slightly expensive Bristol to Southampton stretch will negate much of this saving. In my opinion, the £108.20 off-peak return route '+Via London' is good value for the quickest journeys, the ability to catch most trains (I think any train from Waterloo to Southampton?) and the cost of the underground across London included.

Can anyone find any advances routed 'AP FGW/ATW &CONN' on this route? These are often excellent value, if a slower route. They are in the fares database but I cannot get one offered to me.

 

[yorkie]

I'm glad someone from experience is talking rather than these moderators; I'm not sure about the impartiality.

since when has any organization acted in the general interests of the consumer it always take an amount of lobbying but i doubt we will have the support of these moderators.

Thanks.

I can assure you that if you had a case I would back you up.

I could lie and say you have a case and give you my support, but what would it get you other than false hopes?

If you want to complain that the minimum interchange times are not advertised well enough, I will agree with you on that. They used to be shown on National Rail Enquiries (NRE) but no longer are. There is no good reason for them not to be. It's harder than ever to find them; almost all timetables used to show them but now few printed ones do and I'm not sure if any journey planners do!

The easiest way to find them are unofficial sites such as brtimes.com, which is an unsatisfactory state of affairs, in my opinion.

 

[ab1]

let the teddies fly..... back to the topic.

As i have stated before i had a valid ticket... It was sold by Cross country. why sell a " certain type of ticket " ticket knowing you will definitely not be able to catch the train or at least flag it as a issue; why not the technology allows it; I may not have bought the ticket.

Would you help me in lobbying for this or you just going to tell me its my fault. I should have magically known. Or are we just going to accept what they rail operators tell us.



Thanks.

 

[Starmill]

I agree about it being overly difficult to find them. You need to look in the eNRT for the the station index to find your station.

You also need to read page 6 and page 44 of this document. I think there are a few details there (such as Valley Lines - Valley Lines ATW connections being only 3 mins) that the unofficial sources miss.

 

[yorkie]

As i have stated before i had a valid ticket... It was sold by Cross country. why sell a " certain type of ticket " ticket knowing you will definitely not be able to catch the train or at least flag it as a issue; why not the technology allows it; I may not have bought the ticket.

You bought all tickets as part of one transaction?

Unfortunately that doesn't help your case much, because each ticket you had is independent of each other.

Yes, you can use them together to form one journey, but the booking site has no idea you wish to do this, so no validation is done.

Trainsplit.com will do all this for you; identifying the cheapest "split", putting all tickets in your basket and giving you a through itinerary with fully valid connections.

Would you help me in lobbying for this or you just going to tell me its my fault. I should have magically known. Or are we just going to accept what they rail operators tell us.

I'd support you in lobbying for the minimum connection times to be more prominently displayed.

As a minimum they should be in on the NRE website (as they once were!)

 

[theblackwatch]

let the teddies fly..... back to the topic.

As i have stated before i had a valid ticket... It was sold by Cross country. why sell a " certain type of ticket " ticket knowing you will definitely not be able to catch the train or at least flag it as a issue; why not the technology allows it; I may not have bought the ticket.

Would you help me in lobbying for this or you just going to tell me its my fault. I should have magically known. Or are we just going to accept what they rail operators tell us.



Thanks.

Are you positive you have a single itinerary from the tickets you were sold which shows your seven minute connection at Manchester Piccadilly? Can you post a screengrab of it on here please?

 

[455driver]

I could buy a ticket from Penzance to Plymouth, and another ticket from Edinburgh to Inverness booked to arrive at Inverness 3 hours after the first ticket gets me to Plymouth, both booked on the same site because I am buying 2 separate journeys, if I tried to book one journey from Penzance (with the same departure time) to Inverness (with the same arrival time) it wouldnt let me book it because it would know I am booking one journey!
You didnt book one journey you booked 3 (or 4) so therefore the site allowed it, if you are going to get creative with ticketing then you need to know (and stick to) the rules, on this occasion you didnt!

You put the details in for each leg, the site then gave you a selection of valid journeys using that information (and only that information), you then chose which journey to book, is that the fault of the site or you?