Northern Rail train late / missed connection

[ab1]

Hi

I was travelling from Bolton to Southampton via Manchester Piccadilly (changing there).

The train was delayed to Manchester Piccadilly; I had to take an alternative route to via London Euston to Southampton as this was the only alternative route Past 18:30pm. The delay was over 10 minutes.

I had paid Virgin train fare for my travel to Euston.

I had contacted Northern Rail seeking compensation; waited for a reply then rang them. Regarding my late train from Bolton to Manchester Piccadilly they said "you shoud have caught an earlier train" one would have avoided the delay and they can't do anything.

Do i have a claim against Northern rail for them causing me to be late for my connection irrespective of this so called "catch an earlier train" which they are referring to; seems to me like a cop out as they don't want to pay me.


Any advice will be welcomed.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Hi, could you advise us which train you caught from Bolton, what ticket(s) you held, and which day it was if you can remember please?

 

[coxxy]

Hi


Do i have a claim against Northern rail for them causing me to be late for my connection irrespective of this so called "catch an earlier train" which they are referring to; seems to me like a cop out as they don't want to pay me.


Any advice will be welcomed.

Thanks.

All depends what time trains you were catching... Which Train from Bolton was delayed, what time was it due in to Piccadilly and what time was you due on the Southampton train? If I remember rightly the minimum connection time is 10 minutes so if you left yourself less than that then Northern are well with in their rights...

 

[reb0118]

Whilst passengers can have more than one ticket for a throughout journey in situations like these holding a through ticket does help, esp. with TOCs that hold an isolated view of service provision. NB I'm not saying that it is a requirement to hold a through ticket just that it may be a lot easier to claim for any missed connections.

Although not related to the OP's predicament looking at Northern's network map with no reference to any lines that they do not provide a service on provides an insight into the company ethos.

I find this attitude rather intriguing as surely most senior managers must have been employed by B.R. at one time?

Back to the OP's query. Once he replies with info. re. the actual tickets held, trains travelled on, and connection times I'm sure the forum will respond with suitable help.

 

[yorkie]

Hi

I was travelling from Bolton to Southampton via Manchester Piccadilly (changing there).

The train was delayed to Manchester Piccadilly; I had to take an alternative route to via London Euston to Southampton as this was the only alternative route Past 18:30pm. The delay was over 10 minutes.

I had paid Virgin train fare for my travel to Euston.

I had contacted Northern Rail seeking compensation; waited for a reply then rang them. Regarding my late train from Bolton to Manchester Piccadilly they said "you shoud have caught an earlier train" one would have avoided the delay and they can't do anything.

Do i have a claim against Northern rail for them causing me to be late for my connection irrespective of this so called "catch an earlier train" which they are referring to; seems to me like a cop out as they don't want to pay me.


Any advice will be welcomed.

Thanks.

We have no idea whether you had a valid connection, as there are no details included in your post.

Delay Compensation is available if your journey was delayed by an hour or more, however if you were delayed by only 10 minutes, then delay compensation would not apply.

You can only get delay compensation if it was a valid itinerary for a journey, ie if you did allow sufficient interchange time.

If you did not allow sufficient interchange time then you may be asked to buy a new ticket and you may not be entitled to claim delay compensation. So it is vital, when planning a journey, to ensure sufficient interchange time is allowed. It is unclear if that was the case or not.

 

[ab1]

ok the times as below:

Sunday 9th November 2014

17:54 Bolton
arrive 18:20 Manchester Piccadilly

18:27 Manchester Piccadilly
arrive 20:54 Banbury
and onwards to Southampton......

was totally unaware of this 10 minutes or sufficient time. One could argue what is reasonable.....

I finding it difficult to understand why i having to pay double to travel for my journey due to a late train arrival.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Unfortunately as others have said, the interchange time is not sufficient in your itinerary (10 minutes at Piccadilly) therefore this is not a valid itinerary. Officially speaking you are not entitled to compensation in this case.

Did you book separate tickets for this journey? No booking engine will generate this itinerary for me as a through journey, which confirms that it is not a valid one, for exactly the same timings. To connect with the 1827 from Piccadilly, your last journey opportunity from Bolton is the 1735 from Bolton.

was totally unaware of this 10 minutes or sufficient time. One could argue what is reasonable.....

That is unfortunately irrelevant. The definition of a valid itinerary is clearly defined. There are also a variety of tools you could use to check that you had a valid itinerary.

You could try and argue your case with Northern and hope that they would budge, but unfortunately I think as you already gave it a go unsuccessfully, further effort will just be futile.

Although you don't have a case for complaining to Northern, you may with Virgin, but that depends on what ticket(s) you had with you. I cannot say either way because you did not give me an answer in that respect.

 

[DelayRepay]

ab1 could you also confirm what happened in Manchester? Did you speak to staff for assistance or did you just go straight to the ticket office/machine and buy a new ticket?

 

[Howardh]

It's been written on here before that each interchange has a minimum connection time, although that information is hard to find and each station is different.

If you are used to a station, eg Piccadilly, and, ahem, the performances of the trains taking you there (no names) then an experienced passenger would allow plenty.

However if anyone isn't aware that Piccadilly requires crossing overbridges etc, and trains can be held up getting to platforms 13/14 then they may well leave too little connection time.

I've suggested nationwide a minimum connection time, applicable to all stations so we all know where we are or possibly when you buy a ticket, say Bolton - Piccadilly, there is a number after "Piccadilly" (eg15) which shows the minimum connection time at that station irrespective of whether you are travelling onwards, and if connections are missed outside of this then it's up to the TOC's to get you there for no extra charge.

Basically since split ticketing won't include connection times it's currently down to the pax to sort it out for themselves, via the enquiries website I suppose.

Has anyone got a solution - other than these??

 

[reb0118]

Some information about connections can be found here - from the National Rail site.

Personally I think, in theory if not always in practice, that the railway has got it about right with connections.

 

[Howardh]

Some information about connections can be found here - from the National Rail site.

Personally I think, in theory if not alway in practice, that the railway has got it about right with connections.

If you click on the station's name, nothing comes up?

EDIT I'ce clicked on the link, put Piccadilly in, and on the Piccadilly site I can't find connection times?

 

[ian959]

It's been written on here before that each interchange has a minimum connection time, although that information is hard to find and each station is different.

Don't see why you think it is hard to find - its in the National Rail Timetable and has been for as long as I can remember.

5 minutes minimum unless otherwise indicated.

In this case the OP simply has no claim for compensation but might try for a goodwill gesture from Virgin Trains...

 

[northwichcat]

If you use Google to plan a journey it ignores the requirement for a longer connection time at stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, but then Google isn't to be trusted for rail information.

The only way I think ab1 could have a case against Northern is if he/she used printed Northern timetables to plan their journey as Northern don't say anything about allowing 10 minutes connection time in their printed timetables.

 

[Merseysider]

Connection times for all stations are available here. The OP may find this useful when planning journeys in future.

In my view, even 10 minutes at Piccadilly is cutting it fine, especially with the bottleneck at P13/14.

 

[455driver]

It's been written on here before that each interchange has a minimum connection time, although that information is hard to find and each station is different.

Just put your start and end stations into any of the booking engines and they will generate a valid itinerary, not hard to find!
Of course if you want to be clever with your trips then that is your choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In this case the OP simply has no claim for compensation but might try for a goodwill gesture from Virgin Trains...

Why?
The OP got it wrong, why should the train company be out of pocket?

 

[yorkie]

This thread is a guessing game .

We know that delay compensation isn't due, for two reasons
1) There was insufficient interchange time allowed at MAN;
2) The overall delay was around "10 minutes" and would have had to be over 60 minutes to qualify.

But we do not know what ticket(s) were held, nor do we know what ticket(s) and/or excess fares were purchased, nor what advise was sought or who made the charge. We know that the passenger "[had] to pay double to travel for my journey" but that is nowhere near enough information for us to say whether or not the charge was correct or not.

The charges may have been totally correct or may have been totally wrong and I have absolutely no idea unless full details are provided.

 

[ab1]

I will provide details of the tickets later today.

The cost of the journey was £101.00... (Piccaddilly to Euston)

The total cost of the journey was about £156.00.

After this; needelss to say my future preference will be not be trains in the future.

Thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to clarify.

I bought the tickets through cross country website and picked these tickets up from the self service ticket machine at Bolton.

At Manchester piccadilly i mentiioned to Virgin customer Services they said to inform the guard on the train my circumstncs which i did.

Thanks.

 

[ian959]

Since Bolton to Southampton via the timings you gave is NOT an option provided by the Cross Country web site, I presume you split ticketed since split ticketing BON-MAN (NR) and MAN-SOU (CC) is a much cheaper price than a BON-SOU fare.

If that is the case, your ticket on Cross Country appears to be a non-refundable Cross Country only ticket valid only on the train specified on the ticket.

You have at a guess therefore either been excessed to bring your ticket up to the correct fare for the Virgin Trains service you actually travelled on OR have been charged for a new ticket as the CC ticket may not be excessable. This would be correct as far as I am aware but someone more knowledgable than I will no doubt confirm that.

Looks like you are a victim of your own desire to save money without understanding all the rules applicable to the tickets bought and the route travelled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why?
The OP got it wrong, why should the train company be out of pocket?

Oh I quite agree with you but it was merely suggested as Virgin seem at times to hand out RTVs whether or not they have any obligation to do so, so why not try it on?

 

[yorkie]

I will provide details of the tickets later today.

The cost of the journey was £101.00... (Piccaddilly to Euston)

The total cost of the journey was about £156.00.

After this; needelss to say my future preference will be not be trains in the future.

Thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to clarify.

I bought the tickets through cross country website and picked these tickets up from the self service ticket machine at Bolton.

At Manchester piccadilly i mentiioned to Virgin customer Services they said to inform the guard on the train my circumstncs which i did.

Thanks.

I still don't know what tickets you bought, but assuming you do not have a Railcard £108.20 would get you a walk-up flexible Off Peak Return (SVR), which is valid on most trains (all but early morning ones) from Manchester to London, and any train from London to Southampton. It is also valid on the via Birmingham CrossCountry route providing you leave Manchester after 0930.

Similar restrictions apply coming back, any train from Southampton to London and no early morning trains out of London to Manchester, but with the addition of an evening peak restriction out of London. Any train from 0930 if coming back via Birmingham on CrossCountry.

You say you spent £101 but we don't know what this was for. Perhaps you saved £7 by purchasing Advance tickets. If so, the best solution next time is to pay the extra £7 for flexible tickets.

 

[Starmill]

If you use Google to plan a journey it ignores the requirement for a longer connection time at stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, but then Google isn't to be trusted for rail information.

Whilst messing around with the new journey planning on Google Maps recently, I asked it for a journey from Manchester Airport to Rochdale. There were engineering works this day, no trains could depart from Manchester Victoria towards Rochdale, with Manchester - Rochdale fast Rail Replacement buses in operation and trains and buses also connecting at Moston. The route offered by Google Maps was a train from Manchester Airport to Preston, then one from Preston to Hebden Bridge and a third from Hebden Bridge to Rochdale. This is testament to the fact that Google Maps is not national rail accredited and you should be careful with its use for ticket contractual purposes!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Connection times for all stations are available here. The OP may find this useful when planning journeys in future.

In my view, even 10 minutes at Piccadilly is cutting it fine, especially with the bottleneck at P13/14.

It is possible that there are some errors in this data - look up Cowdenbeath!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

To be fair, giving just 7 minutes to go from Platform 13 to (probably) 5 or 6 is cutting it fine at the best of times. There are minimum connection times for a reason. Many a train crew docket has been changed due to the connection time being too tight to make it reasonably reliable. Sorry that you had to pay out ab1 BUT 7 minutes change time is really too short

 

[Statto]

To be fair, giving just 7 minutes to go from Platform 13 to (probably) 5 or 6 is cutting it fine at the best of times. There are minimum connection times for a reason. Many a train crew docket has been changed due to the connection time being too tight to make it reasonably reliable. Sorry that you had to pay out ab1 BUT 7 minutes change time is really too short

I agree i bearing in mind i think the CrossCountry train doors close about 30 seconds before departure, the OP gave themselves 6 minutes to get from P13 to the CrossCountry train, it can take 5 minutes to get from the train on P13 to the upper concourse, then you have to make your way down to the CrossCountry train, i'd give at least 15 minutes to make this connection as has been said even 10 minutes is cutting it fine.

 

[455driver]

But in the eyes of the OP its still the railways fault!

 

[ab1]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

Did you read my post above? I'm guessing you held Advance tickets, at only a £7 saving compared to the walk-up flexible return fare?

If so, that's unfortunate, but you are welcome to obtain advice for any future journeys in our Fares Advice & Policy section.

We could have advised you of the minimum connection requirement, and you'd have had the choice of getting an earlier train, or paying the £7 extra for a flexible fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree i bearing in mind i think the CrossCountry train doors close about 30 seconds before departure, the OP gave themselves 6 minutes to get from P13 to the CrossCountry train, it can take 5 minutes to get from the train on P13 to the upper concourse, then you have to make your way down to the CrossCountry train, i'd give at least 15 minutes to make this connection as has been said even 10 minutes is cutting it fine.

Providing 10 minutes is allowed, it's a valid itinerary, and that's all that matters when it comes to ticket validity.

 

[Merseysider]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

If I know it takes up to ten minutes to walk to work, but only allow myself seven minutes, who is at fault if I'm late for work? Me!

 

[DelayRepay]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

Nothing is 100% clear as you still haven't told us exactly what tickets you held. On the basis of the information supplied, you appear to be the one at fault therefore Virgin were right to charge you for a new ticket, as your original one wasn't valid on their train and they won't have received any money from it.

But to give you an answer once and for all, we need to know exactly what tickets you held for this journey.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the £101 fare charged was for the Man Picc to Euston leg, what ticket was then used for Waterloo - Southampton?

 

[ian959]

It is quite clear the train company have absolved themselves of any responsibility. And the customer ends up paying.

Thanks.

The train company HAS no responsibility if you chose to buy ticket combinations that ignore minimum connection times. The problem appears to be solely a result of your own possibly ill-informed decisions. You ended up paying because you booked a specific train only ticket for Cross Country hence why it was so cheap in comparison to the fare you ended up having to pay.

 

[yorkie]

Nothing is 100% clear as you still haven't told us exactly what tickets you held.

Agreed.

On the basis of the information supplied, you appear to be the one at fault therefore Virgin were right to charge you for a new ticket, as your original one wasn't valid on their train and they won't have received any money from it.

But to give you an answer once and for all, we need to know exactly what tickets you held for this journey.

Agreed we'd need to know the full details. For example, if the Off Peak Return routed not via London was held, then the excess would just be a few pence (as mentioned above) despite that ticket not being valid via London. Yet an Advance ticket routed on XC only could not (officially) be excessed for travel via London.

It sounds like the amount paid was less than the cost of the excessable ticket, so we can only assume the tickets held were Advance tickets, and therefore the total sum paid was significantly more than the cost of someone doing the same journey who had not made any pre-booking arrangement and simply turned up at Bolton and asked for a flexible ticket to Southampton for immediate travel.

But without clarification, we are wasting a lot of our time guessing, while also being unable to provide comprehensive advice on the exact situation.