Northern's approach to ticketless travel

[northwichcat]

I don't understand why this discussion is dragging on. If you board a train without a valid ticket, and where facilities were available at your point of departure to purchase said ticket, you commit an offence.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that for a few reasons:

Northern TVMs don't sell the full range of tickets. Some people say they should buy a ticket for part of the journey and excess but
a) Sometimes the TVM doesn't offer a ticket which can be excessed to the ticket you require.
b) The passenger may not be able to find the correct ticket even if it's there due to some having unusual names.
c) What if there's no opportunity to pay the excess before you reach the destination on your non-excessed ticket?
d) Most importantly Northern don't tell passengers to buy a cheaper ticket and excess so why would they do that?

Then there's the debate about what if you're travelling from an unstaffed station and have the minimum connection time to change at a staffed station. Are you allowed to board the second train without a ticket or must you buy a ticket, miss the connection and wait for an hour at the interchange station?

Some staffed stations are understaffed and station staff actually tell passengers to buy on board if they want the next train because there isn't time to sell everyone a ticket. However, that can then give the impression it's always acceptable to buy on board at busy times.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Then there's the debate about what if you're travelling from an unstaffed station and have the minimum connection time to change at a staffed station. Are you allowed to board the second train without a ticket or must you buy a ticket, miss the connection and wait for an hour at the interchange station?

I wonder how many travellers actually know, or make an effort to find out, what a 'booked connection time' is?

 

[Starmill]

I wonder how many travellers actually know, or make an effort to find out, what a 'booked connection time' is?

They put their origin and destination into a journey planner, and if a change of trains is required, a connection will be selected for them that meets these requirements.

So the majority, probably.

 

[Fare-Cop]

They put their origin and destination into a journey planner, and if a change of trains is required, a connection will be selected for them that meets these requirements.

So the majority, probably.

Agreed, the information is easily accessible, but from the number that actually say 'I only had 3 or 4 minutes to get between trains', I doubt that to be the case.

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed, the information is easily accessible, but from the number that actually say 'I only had 3 or 4 minutes to get between trains', I doubt that to be the case.

Google ignores the recommended connection times but other journey planners should allow the correct connection time.

More regular rail users are also aware that a train which runs to time will arrive at it's final destination around 5 minutes before the advertised time. Also they might be aware that their connecting service will depart from the same platform as they arrive at.

Ironically in some cases Google gives the better advice, even though it's unofficial. For example, changing from a Manchester Airport-Preston service to a Yorkshire-Manchester-Liverpool service at Piccadilly is quicker and easier than at Oxford Rd. Yet official Journey Planners may tell you to change at Oxford Rd because it's a 5 minute connection time and Piccadilly is a 10 minute connection time.

 

[185]

Oh my, it fell out of my computer. Whoops.

For anyone who hasn't seen it....

 

[Merseysider]

Oh my, it fell out of my computer. Whoops.

For anyone who hasn't seen it....

Interesting, thank you
This bit:

The passenger receives a warning (FTP) that does not cost anything other than the price of the ticket. Should the passenger ignore this warning...

seems to imply the 'formal' warning (that costs only the price of the ticket) is to be given to all first time offenders.
But this bit:

we handed out warning flyers to all who breached Byelaw 18 in the weeks before we went live. The main warning element is the FTP notice that the customer receives of course, because they simply have to pay the fare for the journey made to Northern DRPU, without any penalty.

seems to imply the warning was only offered before the scheme went live.

 

[Llanigraham]

Agreed, the information is easily accessible, but from the number that actually say 'I only had 3 or 4 minutes to get between trains', I doubt that to be the case.

Is it?
I've never heard of anywhere to find it, like I suspect most of the general public.

 

[najaB]

Is it?
I've never heard of anywhere to find it, like I suspect most of the general public.

It used to be published on the National Rail Enquiries site, but I can't find it anywhere now.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It used to be published on the National Rail Enquiries site, but I can't find it anywhere now.

See: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/Dec14/Commercial_Information.pdf Page 6.

Connections

Minimum Interchange Times at Stations
Unless a connection is shown by times printed in light type, you should generally allow a minimum of five minutes between arrival and departure.
The exceptions to this rule are indicated by minimum interchange times (e.g. 15 ) alongside the station name in the tables. In certain cases the minimum interchange time is different according to the Train Operators involved.
These are detailed below:-

< . . . etc.>

and for the complete timetable in which those interchange times appear:- http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/May14/Complete_NRT_Single_PDF.zip

 

[najaB]

Thanks, DaveNewcastle.

I'm pretty sure there used to be a single page list of stations where the default 5 minutes didn't apply, but seeing as it's printed in the timetables it's not like it's hidden away or secret 'insider knowledge' as some posts seemed to imply.

 

[Llanigraham]

So to Joe and Josephine Public it isn't obviously available.

 

[Deerfold]

So to Joe and Josephine Public it isn't obviously available.

Where do you think it should be to be more obvious?

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't know, but as a railway worker who has used the trains for more than 40 years I've never heard of it until now.
Perhaps every time someone books a ticket from whatever company they use, where there is a connection, the time should be listed, and a link to the site given.

 

[najaB]

I don't know, but as a railway worker who has used the trains for more than 40 years I've never heard of it until now.
Perhaps every time someone books a ticket from whatever company they use, where there is a connection, the time should be listed, and a link to the site given.

If you buy a ticket online or at the station for which the itinerary involves a connection, then the connection time will have been taken into consideration. The only time you need to know connection times is if you are trying to split a journey yourself.

 

[Starmill]

Where do you think it should be to be more obvious?

I will resist the use of the word 'duh' for the benefit of using this lovely quote:

We are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.