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Second hint from DfT at new DMUs being procured

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Class377/5

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Yes, Trams...

Trams with traction motors totaling less than 1MW with short inter-station runtimes?

Scale that to longer inter-station runtimes and 10MW of traction motors (IC Length Unit)

More lightweight trains means the differences doesn't have to be as big as your making out. Considering the use is designed to be shorter distance its less of an issue anyway.

Of course topping up batteries rather than powering trains can requires less power as well reducing the possible side effects your claiming.
 
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northwichcat

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Looking at services that may well change over to that of tram-train operation, which of these does anyone think will be the longest mileage service to use this type of traction.

Manchester to Marple is the only route TfGM are currently considering tram-train operation on, with Glossop/Hadfield being looked at if it goes well.

Other changes they are currently looking at wouldn't replace rail services. One option is extending the Airport Metrolink line to Hazel Grove (using the freight line which bypasses Stockport station) and another is all Metrolink Altrincham services being operated by tram-trains to allow them to share lines with National Rail services at Navigation Road.

At this stage they've dismissed options for the Atherton line and extensions beyond Altrincham, which they might re-examine in the future.
 

Haydn1971

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Until the trial has been running a few years it's difficult to set out a future, there are big aspirations in both West & South Yorkshire for different tram-train routes covering existing and even closed lines, however these aspirations are driven (in my view) from a view that tram-train is the cheaper option that could be funded via local investment funds. Key concerns are the metrolink wobble issues at speed and actual costs compared to traditional multiple units, however that could be balanced by a more local view on service provision, a tram-train funded by for example Sheffield City Region isn't going to end up moved to service a DfT whim to strengthen services in for example, Birmingham.
 

WatcherZero

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At this stage they've dismissed options for the Atherton line and extensions beyond Altrincham, which they might re-examine in the future.

They did dismiss beyond Altrincham though I think they may come back if there is a major alteration like an Airport eastern link that HS3 might use for Liverpool avoiding Manchester.

Atherton they didn't dismiss, they included it in the costed route package but said they needed more route refinement and research on economic impacts of it. Their method was to economically evaluate each potential line as a standalone project without yet considering construction and operation synergy of combining lines with the existing network or each other.
 

northwichcat

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Atherton they didn't dismiss, they included it in the costed route package but said they needed more route refinement and research on economic impacts of it.

They seem to have dismissed 5tph between Wigan and Manchester via Atherton using tram-trains though.

I think the proposal also pre-dated the Wigan-Bolton electrification announcement.
 

edwin_m

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They seem to have dismissed 5tph between Wigan and Manchester via Atherton using tram-trains though.

I think the proposal also pre-dated the Wigan-Bolton electrification announcement.

It did pre-date the Wigan-Bolton announcement, so the electrification between Crow Nest and Wigan can come out of the tram-train costs which will slightly improve the business case.

Not sure what your first comment means - all the tram-train options went via Atherton. All of them also needed a new tramline from Salford Crescent area to join Metrolink, and the costs of this city centre track are probably why the business case is worse than some other routes.
 

northwichcat

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It did pre-date the Wigan-Bolton announcement, so the electrification between Crow Nest and Wigan can come out of the tram-train costs which will slightly improve the business case.

Or worsen it if the idea is all services on the Atherton line would be Southport services.

Not sure what your first comment means - all the tram-train options went via Atherton. All of them also needed a new tramline from Salford Crescent area to join Metrolink, and the costs of this city centre track are probably why the business case is worse than some other routes.

Watcherzero said they were looking at alternative options. The option they dismissed as low value for money was 5tph to Wigan via Atherton. Maybe not running the service as far as Wigan is another option?
 

edwin_m

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Watcherzero said they were looking at alternative options. The option they dismissed as low value for money was 5tph to Wigan via Atherton. Maybe not running the service as far as Wigan is another option?

They are looking at refining the appraisal as well as alternative route/service options, so I don't think we can say that 5TPH to Wigan via Atherton has been fully discarded.
 

Olaf

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Bombardier is in talks with someone about making new DMUs using the new Electrostar bodyshell rather than Aventra units.

Would you know if this is an existing/potential operator, or a Government agency?

The TOCs have already concluded, that if electrification proceeds as planned, that there will be no requirement for new DMUs in either CP5 or CP6:
http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/wp...gy for the Rail Industry February 2014(1).pdf

- From February 2014
- Paragraph 67.

So any procurement that delivered post-CP6 would not be anything unexpected.

The delivery of a small self-propelled fleet in CP7 would fit with Nick (Curly Wurly) Clegg's claims to a commitment to replace the Pacers. Bombardier are not talking to the Lib Dems by any chance?
 
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158756

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Would you know if this is an existing/potential operator, or a Government agency?

The TOCs have already concluded, that if electrification proceeds as planned, that there will be no requirement for new DMUs in either CP5 or CP6:
http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/wp...gy for the Rail Industry February 2014(1).pdf

- From February 2014
- Paragraph 67.

So any procurement that delivered post-CP6 would not be anything unexpected.

The delivery of a small self-propelled fleet in CP7 would fit with Nick (Curly Wurly) Clegg's claims to a commitment to replace the Pacers. Bombardier are not talking to the Lib Dems by any chance?

The political problem with that report is that the numbers imply that even without unexpectedly high growth/new services/delays in electrification/issues modifying 153s some Pacers must continue into the next decade(perhaps with a long-term commitment to continue using them), which is never going to be popular.
Anyway, regardless of what Clegg says I fully expect to be put off using HS2 by the Pacer-run connecting train.
 

Class377/5

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Would you know if this is an existing/potential operator, or a Government agency?

The TOCs have already concluded, that if electrification proceeds as planned, that there will be no requirement for new DMUs in either CP5 or CP6:
http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/wp...gy for the Rail Industry February 2014(1).pdf

- From February 2014
- Paragraph 67.

So any procurement that delivered post-CP6 would not be anything unexpected.

The delivery of a small self-propelled fleet in CP7 would fit with Nick (Curly Wurly) Clegg's claims to a commitment to replace the Pacers. Bombardier are not talking to the Lib Dems by any chance?

I don't. The quote was in talks with 'someone' but the end customer wanted an Electrostar bodyshell over an Aventra one. Suggests perhaps DfT and a TOC?
 

Olaf

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The political problem with that report ...

This is a technical analysis; the politics is in the eye of the beholder.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't. The quote was in talks with 'someone' but the end customer wanted an Electrostar bodyshell over an Aventra one. Suggests perhaps DfT and a TOC?

Thanks. It could be either, or even a potential bidder that does not currently hold a franchise. In the latter case, I would expect that they would have sounded out more than one manufacturer. There is also teh possibility that it is Rail North, whom have suggested that they would like to establish their own ROSCO - along the same lines as TfL's QW Rail Leasing Ltd.

I think the expectation is that this would be for a limited set of units (assuming that it is for pacer replacement which will partially be covered by cascades in teh coming years), may be more than one batch, but not a significant number for the combined build. It does not sound like a modification of an existing build based on what you have been able to pass on.

In that case I would expect that there would be a premium for the build over earlier unit costs for comparative DMU sets in addition to cost increases due to inflation, compliance and other technology shifts.

If it was a TOC I think they would only be looking to get an estimate of the potential costs for a number of options, and would be talking to other supplies for comparisons. if it was the DfT then the talks might be of a more advanced nature, but I would also then expect that they would have to sound out a number of manufacturers unless there is the assumption that they could construe this to be an extension to an existing order(?). That might narrow down the field a bit, both in terms of suppliers, but also operators.

If it is for a new or modified design, they would probably not be able to get the new vehicles into service before the end of CP5 allowing for authorisation (for spend around April/May 2015 at the very earliest?) design work, acceptance, production, commissioning.

By the end of CP5 the vehicle allocations would also have changed or be in a state of flux/transition due to the cascades we know about. So possibly it is an attempt to eliminate all remaining pacers that are currently planned to still be in service at that time. I'm not sure what numbers that gives. Whatever, it is only bringing forward the planned replacement by about five years or less.

Still, it is does sound a bit like election time politics.

The caveat is though that this all assumes that the UK will be able to afford to invest in the railways at current levels in the coming years; specifically if the rolling electrification program is stalled for whatever reason, then the game changes significantly, but that could also hit vehicle procurement as well.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Yes, Trams...

Trams with traction motors totaling less than 1MW with short inter-station runtimes?

Scale that to longer inter-station runtimes and 10MW of traction motors (IC Length Unit)
If you have IC-length trains (a 2+7 IC125 for example) running regularly you probably ought to be installing OHLE or 3rd rail anyway. The sort of problem line that could need an independently powered EMU would be things like the Conwy valley and Heart Of Wales line. So would a EMU-equivelent of a class 156 require much more power than trams?
 

gage75

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Surely that would be a 170/171 or better still a 172 if based on a 377 ?. OK I suppose it would have to be based on the 377/6 0r /7 or 379 or 387 (if those four are all the same) in which case it depends how many of the differences are due to the traction package only. Windows is the only real difference I can think of.

Would it not more likely to be a 177, 179 or 187
 

SpacePhoenix

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If you have IC-length trains (a 2+7 IC125 for example) running regularly you probably ought to be installing OHLE or 3rd rail anyway. The sort of problem line that could need an independently powered EMU would be things like the Conwy valley and Heart Of Wales line. So would a EMU-equivelent of a class 156 require much more power than trams?

You wouldn't want to go for 3rd rail as you'd limit the power that could be drawn and also the max speed
 

Olaf

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Current matters concerning line electrification projects and the time period scheduling of same should be taken as a benchmark to warn that any such future projects could well suffer from the same time period disruption.

But the delays are only months, not tens of years; not really sufficient grounds at the moment, and best cured by a red hot poker.
 

The Ham

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But the delays are only months, not tens of years; not really sufficient grounds at the moment, and best cured by a red hot poker.

...and if the poker didn't work it will just mean that the amount of electrification in CP6 may not be quite as much as is planned for CP5.
 

northwichcat

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But the delays are only months, not tens of years; not really sufficient grounds at the moment, and best cured by a red hot poker.

Currently you'd need to significantly speed up the rate of electrification to be able to have an accessible railway by the end of 2019 - which is something John Major's government promised in 1994, unless you create some new DMUs or bi-mode trains as Pacer replacement. Being only months behind on the North West electrification scheme is irrelevant, you need to be years ahead and be working on the potential CP6 electrification projects now. Work on Manchester-Selby/York hasn't started yet - in theory that's scheduled for completion in time for the December 2018 timetable change but Network Rail won't commit to a date the work will be completed by.

We don't even know if keeping 142s in service beyond 2019 is an option if an exemption order is granted, they can't last forever and in 2007 it was proposed by DfT and Network Rail that Pacers would be replaced by the end of CP4, with the 150s being replaced by the end of CP5.
 

paul1609

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The 142s won't last forever but they are barely 30 years old now. They should be good for another 15 years life yet if they were properly maintained.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But the delays are only months, not tens of years; not really sufficient grounds at the moment, and best cured by a red hot poker.
Be interesting to see where the Northern projects are with finance, isn't it rumoured the Great Western Electrification is considerably over budget?
 

ainsworth74

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Eh? 45 years would be seriously old for a high quality EMU let alone a low quality DMU...
 

455driver

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Eh? 45 years would be seriously old for a high quality EMU let alone a low quality DMU...

Quite agree, they are a lash up of a bus body bolted on top of a freight wagon chassis with some mechanical bits stuck underneath, the 'design' had to take into account what was being used and was a compromise (albeit a damn good one) and they are getting a bit long in the tooth now.
 

northwichcat

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The 142s won't last forever but they are barely 30 years old now. They should be good for another 15 years life yet if they were properly maintained.

In 2007 Network Rail and DfT agreed that CP4 should see the replacement of Pacers and CP5 should see the replacement of 150s. The 150s are older than the Pacers and yet it was agreed the Pacers needed replacing sooner. (The idea was there would be more DMU orders and the next Northern franchise would have started in 2011 or if not a franchise extension which could have included new trains.)

The thing that shouldn't be happening is the 442s being replaced before Pacers!
 
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Rhydgaled

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The thing that shouldn't be happening is the 442s being replaced before Pacers!
I agree, but wikipedia claims the 442's motors (if I recall correctly) came from the slam-door trains they replaced. If so the older components of the 442s probably need replacing with new ones, but not the trains themselves just yet.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree, but wikipedia claims the 442's motors (if I recall correctly) came from the slam-door trains they replaced. If so the older components of the 442s probably need replacing with new ones, but not the trains themselves just yet.

Which I suppose means there is the possibility of removing or isolating said running gear and rebuilding them into push-pull sets with a Class 67 or 68, perhaps? Might be good for Northern Express type services like the Barrows or Blackpool-York service?

Neil
 

6Gman

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More hot air from our wonderfully successful coalition.

Which has delivered more electrification than the previous lot did in 13 years.

They have absolutely no intention whatsoever of replacing the heaps of junk bouncing round the Northern network.

This would be the North of England which has those shiny new 350s, is getting cascaded 319s, and - hopefully - Pacer replacement?

With the money Northern have paid out to shareholders the last few years, we could have new trains on our routes by now.

Would you care to substantiate that assertion with figures?
 
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deltic08

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Which has delivered more electrification than the previous lot did in 13 years.

True, but there was virtually no growth until 2004/5 and then they woke up to electrification about 2008. The 2010 Tory Government cancelled everything that had been planned including NW triangle and sat on Thameslink train order delaying completion but up to a year.


This would be the North of England which has those shiny new 350s, is getting cascaded 319s, and - hopefully - Pacer replacement?

No rather tarnished 350s not just for the North but also Scotland. I seem to recall that London commuters received the same quantity of 350s also?



Would you care to substantiate that assertion with figures?

Yes. Northern profit for I think 2011/12 was £40m. That would have bought 30 172 carriages for that year alone.
 
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