Northern Rail fare dodge letter

[Llanigraham]

Surely - unless I'm mistaken- she said she'd been given permission to travel by an authorised employee!

And how many more times does it have to be said to you that she has to prove that? It is an EXCUSE that lots of people have been shown to have used and has NEVER been proved.

It has also been said by numerous experts on here that if that might (NOTE, MIGHT) be the case then you should always get that persons name and hopefully the permission in writing.

 

[455driver]

Surely - unless I'm mistaken- she said she'd been given permission to travel by an authorised employee!

Prove it!
That is the point, there is no proof, all that matters is the facts-

Northern can prove the OP travelled without a ticket (fact).
Can the OP prove that they were given permission? No, so therefore not a fact but a statement.

As for all the wibble about the burden of proof etc being on Northern, they can prove the OP travelled without buying a ticket where facilities were available, because (in the OPs opinion the queue would have been more than 5 minutes (did they stand in the queue for 5 minutes before deciding to go and catch the train?) although what that has got to do with anything I dont know!

 

[Merseysider]

This thread is just going round in circles now :roll:

 

[455driver]

This thread is just going round in circles now :roll:

And is of no real use to the OP who has probably wished they never started the thread!

 

[DelayRepay]

And is of no real use to the OP who has probably wished they never started the thread!

Worse than that; I think it's dangerous. If the OP follows some of the advice and lets this go to court, they will probably end up with a bigger bill than the £80 "standard" out of court settlement...

 

[Tetchytyke]

ILlanigraham, I suggest you look at the Passenger Focus case study I posted. Also "proof" is on the prosecution, generally- if the OP can say who told them, what they looked like, what time it was, where they were standing, then it can provide enough doubt. The burden of proof doesn't reverse just because you contest a case.

That said, taking this to court would be a high-risk strategy. And by "high risk" I mean foolish. I'd pay the £85 or so and argue later outside the legal process if I were the OP. But there is precedent that Passenger Focus can help.

 

[Howardh]

Think the bottom line is all passengers are advised to carry with them, at all times on railway property, their own camera which also records sounds, so that they have no worries should they get to the station and find -
- the ticket office is closed when it should be open (hello, Lostock); what happens if they insist it was *open* but the seller's gone off doing other duties?
- there are no ticket selling machines (hello, Lostock)
- there are machines but they aren't working or can't sell you the ticket you want; how can we prove it's not working??
- you get on the train but the guard doesn't come round (hello, Northern)
- you find the guard but "sorry, can't give you a ticket the machine's down" (had that countless times now); how else can we prove that was the case?
and you get to the other end and there's a security company waiting to slam an £80 fine at you.

Put the passenger first? Hmmm.

 

[47802]

Think the bottom line is all passengers are advised to carry with them, at all times on railway property, their own camera which also records sounds, so that they have no worries should they get to the station and find -
- the ticket office is closed when it should be open (hello, Lostock); what happens if they insist it was *open* but the seller's gone off doing other duties?
- there are no ticket selling machines (hello, Lostock)
- there are machines but they aren't working or can't sell you the ticket you want; how can we prove it's not working??
- you get on the train but the guard doesn't come round (hello, Northern)
- you find the guard but "sorry, can't give you a ticket the machine's down" (had that countless times now); how else can we prove that was the case?
and you get to the other end and there's a security company waiting to slam an £80 fine at you.

Put the passenger first? Hmmm.

Reading some of this stuff makes my blood boil its just plain extremely bad customer service and makes you wonder why anyone would actually want to travel by train

 

[northwichcat]

and you get to the other end and there's a security company waiting to slam an £80 fine at you.

STM Security cannot give you a £80 fine. They can only take passenger's details for Northern Rail to then decide what course of action to take based on the reports they are given.

 

[Flamingo]

Reading some of this stuff makes my blood boil its just plain extremely bad customer service and makes you wonder why anyone would actually want to travel by train

Well, a significant number of people travel by train because they think that most of the time they will get a free ride. And when they don't, there is a good chance the worst that will happen to them is they have to buy a ticket.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Well, a significant number of people travel by train because they think that most of the time they will get a free ride. And when they don't, there is a good chance the worst that will happen to them is they have to buy a ticket.

and another significant number of people travel by train because it is a stress-free environment with friendly and welcoming staff - that's the significant number who do have tickets for travel.

 

[47802]

Well, a significant number of people travel by train because they think that most of the time they will get a free ride. And when they don't, there is a good chance the worst that will happen to them is they have to buy a ticket.

How often have I been seriously inconvenienced because of massive queue's at the ticket office, we keep hearing of customers from unmanned stations having problems, no excuse for this in my book the customer is frequently not being given adequate opportunity to buy a ticket and then accused of fare dodging, and then the ticket office which should be open but are not.

 

[CC 72100]

How often have I been seriously inconvenienced because of massive queue's at the ticket office, we keep hearing of customers from unmanned stations having problems, no excuse for this in my book the customer is frequently not being given adequate opportunity to buy a ticket and then accused of fare dodging, and then the ticket office which should be open but are not.

Surely the simple solution (in Northern land) is to wait for the train to come in and have a quick chat with the guard while other passengers board/get off. That way you show that you're not trying to evade, that you're genuine, but that you respect the fact that technically you ought to have a ticket beforehand to travel. My experience is that most rail staff are pretty sensible people who use common sense and therefore I imagine would be ok with this. It reminds of the French ticket checks, where the TM announces that anybody who has had trouble in purchasing or stamping their ticket (ie. doesn't have one!)should go and find them where they are currently located in coach X. However, anybody who stays quiet and waits to be "discovered" when he does his standard check are dealt with harshly and fined etc.

Edit - I've travelled with Northern twice in my life, I always have my ticket before getting on the train, but I'm only being hypothetical and using my own experience of other situations and - dare I say it - a bit of common sense.

 

[Flamingo]

How often have I been seriously inconvenienced because of massive queue's at the ticket office, we keep hearing of customers from unmanned stations having problems, no excuse for this in my book the customer is frequently not being given adequate opportunity to buy a ticket and then accused of fare dodging, and then the ticket office which should be open but are not.

By inconvenienced, I presume you mean joining a queue to buy a ticket.

As far as I have seen on this forum, the only passengers who have boarded at unmanned stations (or stations with closed ticket offives and no TVM) who have a problem purchasing a ticket are the ones who are either heading out the exit at their destination, or "panic" and say a station closer than the one they boarded at (and for good measure throw in something like "I left my ticket on the train") because the nasty man shouted at them. I have yet to see a post on this forum from anybody who mistakenly said a station further away...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and another significant number of people travel by train because it is a stress-free environment with friendly and welcoming staff - that's the significant number who do have tickets for travel.

They are the passengers we welcome

 

[47802]

By inconvenienced, I presume you mean joining a queue to buy a ticket.

As far as I have seen on this forum, the only passengers who have boarded at unmanned stations (or stations with closed ticket offives and no TVM) who have a problem purchasing a ticket are the ones who are either heading out the exit at their destination, or "panic" and say a station closer than the one they boarded at (and for good measure throw in something like "I left my ticket on the train") because the nasty man shouted at them. I have yet to see a post on this forum from anybody who mistakenly said a station further away...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are the passengers we welcome

By inconvenienced I mean standing in a ticket office queue for 20mins missing my train and then having to wait an hour for the next one.

And quite frankly it seems to me you have a general bad attitude towards customers

 

[Howardh]

I find it illogical that on the one hand it couldn't be easier to buy a ticket on the web, even printing some off at home or having it sent to your mobile (am I right on that??) which is a fantartic development BUT on the other hand for a walk-on passenger, maybe travelling on the spur of the moment, may often face a battle of epic proportions just to make their journeys legal.
Every station should have a ticket machine, I think the Metrolink does and there are now dozens of stops, or have machines on trains (that's been argued for and against on here before!) so there's no excuse for not having a ticket.

The very cynical side of me makes me think that the TOC would rather someone pay the £80 penalty than the £8 ticket, so there's no, let's say encouragement, for TOC's to ensure guards/collectors go down the carriage or have working ticket machines. Now that's probably far from the case, but I bet I'm not the only one has those thoughts, and the only way for TOC's to remidy that is to simply...make it quick and easy to buy a ticket....then everybody's happy except the fare dodger.

 

[Darandio]

And quite frankly it seems to me you have a general bad attitude towards customers

Maybe you could step into their shoes for the day and witness the attitude, excuses, trying it on, verbal abuse and even violence?

Then come back and see if you have come to the same conclusion. Although I assume all of the above will be a consequence of the their own actions, especially when the become all 'shouty'?

 

[Howardh]

Let's even things up by saying a couple of months ago I left my ticket on the train accidentally. Looked in my pocket approaching the barriers....then wallet, then bag...nothing....so went immediately to the ticket office and explained my predicament. No proof of purchase either (no card) but the guy behind the glass asked me "have another look", I did, still nothing and was happy to allow me to buy a replacement.
Top man, how it should be done.

 

[455driver]

And quite frankly it seems to me you have a general bad attitude towards customers

No I think you are wrong, Flamingo has a very kind attitude to customers who can manage to buy a ticket before boarding (and catch the correct train when needed) but he has a bad attitude towards fare dodgers or people who expect the world to revolve around them rather than them put a bit of effort in themselves though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's even things up by saying a couple of months ago I left my ticket on the train accidentally. Looked in my pocket approaching the barriers....then wallet, then bag...nothing....so went immediately to the ticket office and explained my predicament. No proof of purchase either (no card) but the guy behind the glass asked me "have another look", I did, still nothing and was happy to allow me to buy a replacement.
Top man, how it should be done.

So looking at this another way, when there is a block on at the station the persistent fare dodger should be able to just buy a ticket, is that what you are saying. Not going to get very many prosecutions there or even people buying tickets beforehand are we!

Oh all the talk of good customer service etc etc is all well and good but it didnt do W&S any good did it, although their customer service was fantastic the fact they didnt make any money meant that they went broke, a business is in business to make money.

 

[Clip]

Oh all the talk of good customer service etc etc is all well and good but it didnt do W&S any good did it, although their customer service was fantastic the fact they didnt make any money meant that they went broke, a business is in business to make money.

Oh god now you are going to open a hornets nest about business Vs Public service and those nasty people at Serco... blah blah blah.

In fact the poster you quoted says 'How it should be done' and I am afraid no, its not how it should be done but if I say anymore Ill get the usual 'Pro business and everyone is a criminal' charge levelled at me again.

 

[Tetchytyke]

a business is in business to make money.

Which is why it is amazing just how shoddy Northern's ticketing arrangements really are. The ticket machines are scarce and rubbish and if you ever see more than one window open at a local station it's a miracle.

I've queued 20 minutes to buy a ticket at Bradford Forster Square before, on a line where there's only a train every 30 minutes. Northern don't operate London-style service frequencies and don't offer London-style ease of purchasing either.

Yorkshire and Lancashire have had pay trains since the 70s. I totally agree with Northern wanting to clamp down on "pay when challenged", but you don't change 40 years of "buy on board, it's great!" with an arbritrary stick and no carrot.

the poster you quoted says 'How it should be done' and I am afraid no, its not how it should be done but if I say anymore Ill get the usual 'Pro business and everyone is a criminal' charge levelled at me again.

No, in your world they should get a letter threatening prosecution and a demand for a £80 "out of court settlement".

If you start with the attitude of issuing a Serco Tax demand to anyone who makes a mistake like Howardh's you end up with a situation where people won't approach staff to own up to a mistake. They'll just double-gate and walk off and all the revenue will be lost.

 

[neilmc]

I think howardh has got it spot on. As long as Northern can depend upon a steady income stream of £80 "fines" from ticketless travellers - which is of course at least ten times the cost of the average ticket at least in Greater Manchester - what incentive do they have to improve ticketing either at departing stations or on the train?

 

[northwichcat]

I think howardh has got it spot on. As long as Northern can depend upon a steady income stream of £80 "fines" from ticketless travellers - which is of course at least ten times the cost of the average ticket at least in Greater Manchester - what incentive do they have to improve ticketing either at departing stations or on the train?

£80 all for Northern while a £7 train fare may be split between different operators.

 

[Chris999999]

I find it illogical that on the one hand it couldn't be easier to buy a ticket on the web, even printing some off at home or having it sent to your mobile (am I right on that??) which is a fantartic development

One of the big problems is you can't do what you describe. Printing tickets at home is 20th century technology, yet here we are 14 years into the 21st century and I still have to queue at my local station, both for the human and machine issued tickets.

I can buy the ticket on the web in seconds but that is of no advantage because I still have to go to the station to get the ticket.

I know if I want to travel in the morning I must expect a 20 minute queue - sometimes it is less, but I won't know until I get there.

 

[island]

ILlanigraham, I suggest you look at the Passenger Focus case study I posted. Also "proof" is on the prosecution, generally- if the OP can say who told them, what they looked like, what time it was, where they were standing, then it can provide enough doubt. The burden of proof doesn't reverse just because you contest a case.

I'm not sure this is correct. My understanding is that the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant joined a train for the purpose of travel without having with him a valid ticket, or, as the case may be, failed to hand over his ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person. If the prosecution does so, a defendant wishing to avail of the defence that an authorised person gave him permission to travel needs to prove that the said permission was given. It is impossible for the prosecution to prove that no authorised person gave permission.

As always, all of the foregoing is my understanding of the law and may not be accurate.

 

[Howardh]

£80 all for Northern while a £7 train fare may be split between different operators.

Would it be better/more appropriate if the penalty went straight back to the government - less the original fare - to be re-distributed to Network Rail, as you rightly say the journey/fare could be split, and indeed Northern could penalise someone that's dodged a fare on a TPE train.

 

[Flamingo]

By inconvenienced I mean standing in a ticket office queue for 20mins missing my train and then having to wait an hour for the next one.

And quite frankly it seems to me you have a general bad attitude towards customers

You're right, I do get letters from my manager about my attitude. The last one was telling me that he had received more letters of praise in that period about me than some guards get in their whole career. Just think what would have come in if I dropped the attitude!

If you did have to wait 20 minutes and missed your train, that is not good. Out of curousity, was this a one-off, and what station/journey was it? Why did you not ask the guard on the train could you buy on board? Most would happily do so in this circumstance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My understanding is that the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant joined a train for the purpose of travel without having with him a valid ticket, or, as the case may be, failed to hand over his ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person.

This is pretty much what I was meaning. The Prosecution must prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the passenger was in breach of the Byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act.

The passenger can avail themselves of the defence that an Authorised Person gave them permission to board a train without a ticket. My understanding is that they don't have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they were given permission by an Authorised Person. They merely need to add enough doubt to the case so that a Magistrate cannot be certain beyond all reasonable doubt that the person was in breach of the law.

In reality that does come down to the credibility of the defendant. If the defendant has no proof whatsoever then, given the fact this defence is as old as the hills, they're not going to change anything. If they can recall who told them- what their name was, what they looked like, where they were standing, what job they were doing- then that defendant is more credible. It isn't for the defendant to have signed authority, in triplicate, permitting him to travel without a ticket, but if the defendant says something vague about "a man on the platform" he's not going to be believed by the Magistrate. It's still for the prosecution to show that the defendant was in breach of the law and that the defendant's evidence is not credible.

I'd still say that trying to run that defence in court is a high risk move, because the defence itself is used so often that it isn't credible. The best advice to the OP is still to cough up and complain afterwards. Passenger Focus have agreed with passengers in very similar situations where an unknown Authorised Person has given permission.

 

[Flamingo]

Of course, the risk is also that the TOC ask their staff who were on duty, all of whom say "I never told them" or "I told them to ask the Guard first"...

 

[bb21]

I have been speaking to the OP on the side and he is happy to advise his friend to take a more constructive approach going forward.