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Passenger services not listed in public timetables

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infobleep

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Back in the past there use to be regular services that were not listed in public timetables. Does anyone know why this was the case?

How would passengers know about them if they were not listed. For example trains ran from Clapham Junction to Addlestone Road (Kensington), now Kensington Olympia but they were not advertised in public timetables.

I know some trains only ran if other trains were late or possibly there were passengers requiring such a service. I've got a working timetable book for Shrewsbury and that has such a train. I forget the exact details on which situations it might run in. This booklet is from the 1950s from memory.
 
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Bevan Price

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Back in the past there use to be regular services that were not listed in public timetables. Does anyone know why this was the case?

How would passengers know about them if they were not listed. For example trains ran from Clapham Junction to Addlestone Road (Kensington), now Kensington Olympia but they were not advertised in public timetables.

I know some trains only ran if other trains were late or possibly there were passengers requiring such a service. I've got a working timetable book for Shrewsbury and that has such a train. I forget the exact details on which situations it might run in. This booklet is from the 1950s from memory.

Some such trains were specifically for workers, and known to anyone who "needed to know".

For example, there used to be services to some Royal Ordnance Factories (ROF), e.g. Wigan - North Western to Euxton ROF (site now partly occupied by Buckshaw Parkway). There were also WW2 services to Risley ROF (one site close to the current Birchwood station.).

There were also a few for rail staff, e.g. the "Annesley Dido", taking Nottingham area crews to/from Annesley steam MPD.
 

Ash Bridge

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Some such trains were specifically for workers, and known to anyone who "needed to know".

For example, there used to be services to some Royal Ordnance Factories (ROF), e.g. Wigan - North Western to Euxton ROF (site now partly occupied by Buckshaw Parkway). There were also WW2 services to Risley ROF (one site close to the current Birchwood station.).

There were also a few for rail staff, e.g. the "Annesley Dido", taking Nottingham area crews to/from Annesley steam MPD.

Seem to recall there was a Manchester Picc-Stockport-Guide Bridge staff train back in the 70s/80s that ran right through the night,every night,usually formed of a 2 car 1st gen DMU.
 

deltic

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The vast majority of unadvertised services were workmen services serving colleries, military establishments and even a chocolate factory in York. Others served rail depots. There are I think still some unadvertised staff trains on the old southern network. London Underground also operated a large number of staff trains at the beginning and end of the service which have now all been replaced by staff taxis. There were also regular train services to sporting venues which were not in published timetables - I think the only ones left now are those serving Old Trafford for Manchester Utd home games.
 

PeterC

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In the 70s or early 80s the night service from Southend Vic to LST was "withdrawn" but continued to run as unadvertised staff trains.
 

Peter Mugridge

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For example trains ran from Clapham Junction to Addlestone Road (Kensington), now Kensington Olympia but they were not advertised in public timetables.

Wasn't it Addison Road?
 

Springs Branch

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Seem to recall there was a Manchester Picc-Stockport-Guide Bridge staff train back in the 70s/80s that ran right through the night,every night,usually formed of a 2 car 1st gen DMU.

Yes, there were non-advertised staff DMUs running Piccadilly - Longsight Staff Halt - Stockport - Guide Bridge and vice versa every hour through the night from midnight to 05.00 in both directions. The WTT indicates these trains stopped on request at Reddish South.

At the same time there was a Class 506 EMU shuttling all night between Piccadilly and Mottram Yard staff halt, stopping at Ashburys, Gorton, Guide Bridge, Newton (on request) and Godley & vice versa.

All this in the era when Selnec/GMT provided a regular 7-day-a-week All Night Bus service throughout Manchester - designed more around transporting industrial shift workers than late-night revelers. So no excuse for not getting to work!


On Merseyside there were long-standing staff trains on the Liverpool - Ormskirk line, which appeared in the WTT but not the public timetable.
These trains stopped at Kirkdale & Aintree, with request stops at the other Ormskirk line stations.
Through the 1970s, the times were 00.20(MX) 00.35(MO) Liverpool Exchange (later Liverpool Central) to Ormskirk and 04.33(SuX) from Ormskirk to Liverpool.
I wonder what happened if you turned up with valid ticket in hand to travel on these trains? Who would be interested in stopping you boarding?


Another example (targeted at day-trippers rather than railway staff) was a non-advertised DMU from Southport to Wigan which ran right through the 1970s.
This left Southport typically around 17.48 & 18.03 on Summer Saturdays, running non-stop to Wigan Wallgate. Presumably intended as a relief train for the regular (Mon-Sat) Southport - Manchester Victoria train running about 10 minutes later.
I know summer Saturday relief trains from the seaside were common back then, but this one wasn't ad-hoc or only for a particularly busy weekend, it ran every Saturday from May to September year after year. The train always appeared in the Mandatory WTT, but not in Public Timetables. Presumably when passengers with return half of a ticket for Wigan turned up at the barrier, the collector directed them to the earlier Wigan train, so why not just put it in the timetable?

No doubt other seaside resorts around the country had similar scheduled "ghost" trains back in the day - although I haven't found any examples for that other prime candidate, Blackpool.
 
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infobleep

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Wasn't it Addison Road?
You right it was. I'm confusing the name with Addlestone the town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's a staff train, not exactly sure why it's not open to the public!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73837/2014/11/20/advanced
Perhaps they don't like the idea of passengers being able to travel out of Kings Cross so early.

I personally think, unless it's trains just for rail staff, it makes sense to list all the trains that run for passengers. I mean the one to Kensington back in the day would have been useful but I get the impression only by word of mouth would you know it ran.
 

AM9

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You right it was. I'm confusing the name with Addlestone the town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps they don't like the idea of passengers being able to travel out of Kings Cross so early.

I personally think, unless it's trains just for rail staff, it makes sense to list all the trains that run for passengers. I mean the one to Kensington back in the day would have been useful but I get the impression only by word of mouth would you know it ran.

Why are trains run for staff only? A typical four-car MU will seat about 200 passengers. The implication is that a majority of those seats will be needed for staff in the small hours. Are there that many staff travelling around at those hours? If as I suspect not, why are trains being run, ultimately at paying passengers cost, that cannot be justified on any economical basis?
If they are ECS movements, they should be classed as such.

p.s. sorry about the split infinitives.
 

Tim R-T-C

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Running for staff only means no need to have conductor etc on board. Might run inttermittently and only stop where required.
 

QJ

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Most relief trains I remember from the 1970s and 1980s would have been listed in the various weekly operating notices. However, I recall back in the 1970s there was a weekday loco hauled "Control relief" train that ran regularly during the summer months between Newton Abbot and Exeter Saint Davids (possibly starting from Paignton) calling at intermediate stations. This was listed in the working timetable but only advertised locally at the stations concerned once it was confirmed it would run.

The reason for not advertising this and similar trains listed in working timetables was that the train could be cancelled, running times altered to cover an anticipated change in passenger loadings , resource commandeered by Control without any inconvenience to the travelling public (except for cranks after class 25 or class 31 haulage along the Dawlish sea wall :lol:)

Staff trains were a regular feature of my journey to and from work at one time. I recall using the 0520 Basingstoke to Reading on many occasions during the 1980s. This was usually formed of a Reading allocated class 117 DMMU but also produced class 101, 117, 119 and the occasional bubble car during the period I caught it. The unit then normally worked a service to Basnigstoke before forming a through service to Paddington. This was not always the case however. I did accidentally grice the Triangle Sidings at Reading not expecting a stock change.

There was also an 0330 Bournemouth to Woking staff train I made use of to get to London from Basinsgtoke when work required. When engineering work affected the line there would be no need for a replacement bus service. Alternative arrangements would have been made for the affected staff. Fortunately for me E/W changes usually meant the train started from Basingstoke instead.

After travelling on the SuO newspaper train to Petersfield from Waterloo (dep 0400?) a quick return could be made to Guildford as the stock and loco formed a staff train then an advertised service from Guildford to Woking (for connections back to London). Very useful for whiling away the night hours between rail trips on Sundays following on from that of the day before.

There was a Birmingham - Walsall - Wolverhampton - Birmingham staff train for a time in the 1970/80s (presumably for Bescot train crews). I caught it once for the novelty when it was formed of an AM4. Got chucked off it at Wolverhampton even though I was a BR employee at the time (not the right kind of staff :D ).
 
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Taunton

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The most extensive set of unadvertised trains were the several, almost an hourly service, right through the night, which ran nonstop from London Waterloo to Portsmouth, for the Navy, and Waterloo to Aldershot, for the Army, in the days when the military was far larger than today. They used the daytime electric units.

Newspaper trains from London and Manchester were mostly unadvertised but would convey a BSK or similar, and often had a fair few passengers on board who either knew of the service or were just hanging round through the night waiting for the "next train".

For services on lines which had no public service, such as the longstanding Clapham Jc to Kensington peak hour service, it avoided any issues with the formal closure procedure, if for example the Lyons Ltd headquarters at Olympia, which provided most of the passengers, moved elsewhere.
 

infobleep

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Interesting that back then they could account for passenger loadings. I guess at times they do similar things today, just that they strengthen trains rather than run unadvertised services. At least I think that would be the case.
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting that back then they could account for passenger loadings. I guess at times they do similar things today, just that they strengthen trains rather than run unadvertised services. At least I think that would be the case.

You do get reliefs - VT operate a few out of Euston on a Friday evening, for instance - but they tend to be visible in the timetable, if only because they need to be opened for reservations and appear on the PIS.

Neil
 

infobleep

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You do get reliefs - VT operate a few out of Euston on a Friday evening, for instance - but they tend to be visible in the timetable, if only because they need to be opened for reservations and appear on the PIS.

Neil
Do they always run or just as required at certain times of the year?
 

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Bevan Price

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On Merseyside there were long-standing staff trains on the Liverpool - Ormskirk line, which appeared in the WTT but not the public timetable.
These trains stopped at Kirkdale & Aintree, with request stops at the other Ormskirk line stations.
Through the 1970s, the times were 00.20(MX) 00.35(MO) Liverpool Exchange (later Liverpool Central) to Ormskirk and 04.33(SuX) from Ormskirk to Liverpool.
I wonder what happened if you turned up with valid ticket in hand to travel on these trains? Who would be interested in stopping you boarding?

At some stations, passengers would have needed a key to operate padlocks on barrier gates, etc.

On some occasions, unadvertised services & ecs trains have been used to convey passengers who have missed connections due to late running / service disruptions.
 

30907

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IIRC another example was the all-night Brighton service, around 1980.
Several of them were not advertised S of Three Bridges during the winter, meaning that when engineering work was happening there was no need to divert via Ford or pay out for replacement buses.
 

infobleep

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IIRC another example was the all-night Brighton service, around 1980.
Several of them were not advertised S of Three Bridges during the winter, meaning that when engineering work was happening there was no need to divert via Ford or pay out for replacement buses.
We're they staff only? No trains run South of Three Bridges now during the middle of the night.
 

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When the first phase of the GN electrification was implemented around 1977, a regular-interval all night passenger service was provided between Kings Cross and the Hertford North & Welwyn GC lines, stopping only at busier stations and using the brand-new Class 313 EMUs.

Roger Ford wrote an article on "A Day on the Great Northern Electrics" theme for Modern Railways, starting his day in the early hours of the morning catching one of the night trains to Hornsey.

Ford's article commented that with the improved service frequency, regular staff trains were needed through the night to get crews to and from depots, so BR decided they may as well put these into the Public TT and let late night/early morning passengers travel on them too.

I'm not sure how long this arrangement lasted - did the all-night skeleton service make it as far as BR privatisation, and did they go back to being unadvertised staff trains at any stage? The GN lines don't seem to have had these trains in the recent past.

Also I wonder how BR collected or enforced fares on these trains back in the late 70s? Presumably suburban ticket offices were not open all night and automated ticket machines and barriers were rare outside London Underground in that era.
 
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EbbwJunction1

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I think that the nightly Royal Mail train from Cardiff to London often had a coach or two tacked on to the back.

This was, I believe, available for the public to use. I recall nearly did so on one occassion, but there was a earlier and quicker service train to Newport so I got that. I don't know what the guard would have said when I showed him my season ticket!
 

Taunton

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The classic stereotype service of this type, a common expression in past generations, was that you travelled by the "Milk Train", from the days when milk churns were collected from country stations overnight, in the days before it was taken in bulk, and conveyed to the city. They generally had a passenger vehicle tacked on the back.
 

tsr

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No, they were public in summer, and NA in winter. IIRC 0100 VC-IG was one (Victoria-Brighton, sorry).

2A04 0100 (0102 in the WTT - usually) VIC-BTN still generally runs.

It's regularly amended. Sometimes it terminates at Three Bridges. Other times it diverts via Lewes or occasionally Hove. It has unadvertised staff calls but runs in public passenger service throughout.
 

infobleep

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2A04 0100 (0102 in the WTT - usually) VIC-BTN still generally runs.

It's regularly amended. Sometimes it terminates at Three Bridges. Other times it diverts via Lewes or occasionally Hove. It has unadvertised staff calls but runs in public passenger service throughout.
I take it the staff calling points only happen when staff require transport to said places.
 

Shimbleshanks

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There was a daily passenger train on the Marchwood Military Railway until quite recently, I believe.
 
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