Minimum Wage should be a Living Wage

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Brown racked up the debt borrowing money to bail out the bankers. At least we can see what he spent the money on, even if he shouldn't have spent it. I genuinely can't see what Economics George has spent the money on.

So a case of absolution extended to one profligate and castigation of another who tried to pay back the debts incurred by the profligate.

Perhaps a reading of the Old Testament may well reveal a similarity...:roll:

 

[Greenback]

I don't think that's the point Arctic Troll was making at all. he is merely trying to point out some inconsistencies as far as I can see.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Cyber-bullying isn't really any different to good old fashioned bullying, the only difference is that you can't leave the bullies at school. Kids bully, they always have and always will, and calling someone pizza face on Twitter isn't so different to pulling their hair in the playground. Teachers never stopped old fashioned bullying either.

In my youth, I cannot recall as many cases of suicides caused by playground bullying than has actually occurred as a result of cyber bullying in these "more enlightened" days. Teachers are not there in the homes of the cyber-bullied unfortunates when the decision to commit suicide is taken.

 

[ainsworth74]

Has it increased or is being reported in the news more than it was? There is a difference.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think that's the point Arctic Troll was making at all. he is merely trying to point out some inconsistencies as far as I can see.

Perhaps it was his seemingly stated acceptance of the profligacy of Brown in his posting that caused me to respond in the way that I did in my posting.
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Has it increased or is being reported in the news more than it was? There is a difference.

Newspapers have and always will look for dramatic headlines of the type that we are discussing to sell newspapers. I remain totally and utterly unconvinced that the ethics of the newspapers were any different over the period in the past so referred to, to that which so occurs today.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
The sooner people recognise that you can't say on Twitter or Facebook or RailUK what you can say to your mates at home or in a bar, the better everyone will be!....

.
Absolutely. There is another difference on the internet. When we were in the pub and had an argument, there were other people around to tell you to calm down if you went over the top; they could make a joke, change the subject or, if necessary, drag you away. You went home, perhaps still fuming, but the disagreement rarely lasted till the next time you met. The internet warrior, however, has none of these checks, Like me, now, he is sitting alone, convinced he is right, no one reading his body language, or putting a timely word in. If Greenback (for instance) responds quickly objecting to me hijacking his point, there is nothing, no one to stop me putting up a rant about Welshmen who choose frogs for their avatars. If Greenback is as volatile as I am, we could exchange rants from now till midnight, each fuelling the others indignation.

 

[Greenback]

Yes Oswyntail, you are absolutely right to include forums such as this one.

 

[Clip]

Funny how that wasn't what he was saying when it was Gordon Brown having the problems.

Now that it's Economics George- who's spent more in four years than what Brown spent in thirteen- having the problems suddenly the "global economic condition" is all that's wrong in the world.

Brown racked up the debt borrowing money to bail out the bankers. At least we can see what he spent the money on, even if he shouldn't have spent it. I genuinely can't see what Economics George has spent the money on.

More than likely a whole chunk of what he has spent money on will be the interest payments on the money borrowed to bail out the banks - not so long ago these interest repayments were running at £49Bn per year so thats £200Bn in the 4 years they have been in power so far - thats a hell of a lot of money

 

[Tetchytyke]

So a case of absolution extended to one profligate and castigation of another who tried to pay back the debts incurred by the profligate.

My point is that Economics George hasn't paid anything back, he's borrowed more in four years than his predecessor did in thirteen.

There's a lot of hypocrisy coming from the Conservatives about the "global economic situation", given that it was a lot worse five years ago.

I thought I was clear that Brown should never have bailed out the bankers.

Newspapers have and always will look for dramatic headlines of the type that we are discussing to sell newspapers. I remain totally and utterly unconvinced that the ethics of the newspapers were any different over the period in the past so referred to, to that which so occurs today.

I think newspapers do print more, and more shocking stuff, than they did even twenty years ago. When the footballer Marc-Vivien Foe died of a heart attack on the pitch during an international game in 2003, pretty much every tabloid in the country had photos of his dying breaths on their front page. The Evening Standard and The Sun carried front-page pictures of a woman standing on a high ledge and falling to her death in 2006. I don't think you'd have had that in the 70s or 80s.

 

[radamfi]

Just don't buy 'news'papers and don't read their websites. They will soon go bust if everyone did that.

 

[Butts]

.
Absolutely. There is another difference on the internet. When we were in the pub and had an argument, there were other people around to tell you to calm down if you went over the top; they could make a joke, change the subject or, if necessary, drag you away. You went home, perhaps still fuming, but the disagreement rarely lasted till the next time you met. The internet warrior, however, has none of these checks, Like me, now, he is sitting alone, convinced he is right, no one reading his body language, or putting a timely word in. If Greenback (for instance) responds quickly objecting to me hijacking his point, there is nothing, no one to stop me putting up a rant about Welshmen who choose frogs for their avatars. If Greenback is as volatile as I am, we could exchange rants from now till midnight, each fuelling the others indignation.

This is very salient observation which requires further investigation - I'm surprised he did not select a sheep

Do not fear "rants" are excised very quickly (most of the time) by those who reside in RailUK Forums's Prince Albrecht Strasse command centre.
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Just don't buy 'news'papers and don't read their websites. They will soon go bust if everyone did that.

Are you having a giraffe - give me the printed version any day

 

[radamfi]

Are you having a giraffe - give me the printed version any day

Do you care if the publication is telling you lies?

 

[Butts]

Do you care if the publication is telling you lies?

What "The Independent" - never

 

[Oswyntail]

Do you care if the publication is telling you lies?

How do you tell? Do you trust one source over another? Do you read all sources, find common points and believe those? Do you use your intuition? Does it matter? We are lucky in the UK having our lives affected, generally, by well-meaning folk, of various levels of competence, of varying approaches, some of which we agree with, some we don't. Our electoral system, railed against by many, ensures that we bumble along slowly evolving, with mostly the same values, never electing a government that threatens these. We grumble a bit, but never really do anything, because, actually, there is not that much that needs doing. So what does it matter that the Guardian spouts twaddle, and the Times prints tosh?

 

[radamfi]

How do you tell? Do you trust one source over another? Do you read all sources, find common points and believe those? Do you use your intuition? Does it matter? We are lucky in the UK having our lives affected, generally, by well-meaning folk, of various levels of competence, of varying approaches, some of which we agree with, some we don't. Our electoral system, railed against by many, ensures that we bumble along slowly evolving, with mostly the same values, never electing a government that threatens these. We grumble a bit, but never really do anything, because, actually, there is not that much that needs doing. So what does it matter that the Guardian spouts twaddle, and the Times prints tosh?

People quote print media as if it is the truth, when in reality it is opinion, sort of like a print version of a blog. People's lives have been destroyed by so called 'news'papers. Broadcast media, whilst not perfect, as it is run by humans, at least is highly regulated and is required to be factual by law.

You are easily pleased if you think 'not that much that needs doing'. Ever heard of bus deregulation? What about the poor cycle infrastructure? What about the fact that the UK voting system means that it is uneconomic for a party that I may want to vote for to stand in my constituency? At least I'll soon be insulated from those things in the Netherlands.

 

[Butts]

Has it increased or is being reported in the news more than it was? There is a difference.

Also it is no longer a Criminal Offence or a Sin (in most peoples eyes)

 

[43021HST]

The sooner print media is put out of its misery the better. Then the news sources can start reporting and investigating the news rather than reporting any old tripe that they think will sell. No I don't care about Kate Middletons Kid or Muslim scroungers raising house prices.

I don't buy print media, Right or Left wing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It doesn't matter on what format the content is published, "what sells" is an important consideration. You need people to read your work to persuade advertisers to buy advertising space. If you don't take adverts you need people to read your work to buy it and allow you to keep going. You need to think about what sells otherwise you very quickly don't have a business.

All news sources have an inherent bias, you choose your news source based on your bias. I'm a cynic so I buy Private Eye, I'm a left-leaning libertarian so I read the Grauniad. There is no such thing as unbiased news.

As for our electoral system, most of the power is vested in a small electorate of middle-class middle-income people in the "marginals". My home town of Shipley is a great example of it. This means you always get parties who appeal to middle-class middle-income people. It has its down points- benefit cuts to fund tax cuts- but it also means you don't have the carnage you see in places like Italy.

 

[43021HST]

Ah well but most of the 'free' news sites have most of the best investigative stories, Vice news and Huffington Post come to mind. Sites that try to generate money, write more about click bait articles and top 10 lists.

 

[radamfi]

I'm a bit wary about Huffington Post and the like. At the moment they seem relatively harmless but there is the potential for them to become just like the old fashioned 'news'papers, the only difference being not on physical paper.

 

[21C101]

You can still go to the pub now and do the same! There's a big difference between doing that and taking to Twitter, as you've pointed out, the latter can be seen by millions and is bound to attract the attention f others, which is highly unlikely if you're down the boozer.

I hear loads of things when I'm down the pub that I wouldn't like to see on social media. It's precisely because there isn't a massive audience that I don't immediately summon the police, even though a lot of conversations include harrassment, sexism, racism, ageism and threatening behaviour!

I'm not sure you can. Pubs are festooned with CCTV cameras and if you get drunk and insult somebody you might well get your collar felt, if someone reports that you said something that some protected group finds offensive

Similarly you have to be very careful what you say at a football match thanks to CCTV, whereas before, provided you didn't resort to violence you were safe (and stood a slim chance of getting caught fighting as well)

Not approving of saying such things; but young men in particular have always done so, especially when under the influence, but now they can effectively be blacklisted for life for doing so.

As to cyber bullying. I can't see how it is worse than the real variety. Simples, deactivate your account. The way to deal with twitter trolls is not to feed them. Bouncing up and down in outrage means that while you may get that twitter troll arrested, another ten will replace him. i'm also not quite sure why the authorities seem to monitor twitter trolls in particular. Far worse things appear with impunity in the comments section of online mainstream newspapers.

Generally, I think the problem is that people are far too sensitive to insults these days. The law should butt out and say "get over it". Things have got completely out of kilter. I suspect because people don't face daily risk of death in war or catching some nasty disease, because they generally don't go hungry or cold, because they don't have to get up at 5AM and spend an hour in a freezing house clearing and relighting the only fire, they don't stop worrying, they just worry more and get upset more about what previous generations would regard as trifling things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a bit wary about Huffington Post and the like. At the moment they seem relatively harmless but there is the potential for them to become just like the old fashioned 'news'papers, the only difference being not on physical paper.

The eye seems to me to have lost it's edge in recent years, it seems too close to the establishment to me these days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As to cyber bullying. I can't see how it is worse than the real variety. Simples, deactivate your account. The way to deal with twitter trolls is not to feed them.

Is it not said that the use of these devices are seen as "must-have" by the youth of today who have been totally and utterly indoctrinated by all types of advertising and of peer pressure to accepting this warped sense of reality. I read that Facebook and the like are part of life itself today for young people and they appear unwilling to deactivate them in the manner suggested.

I was really amazed to read the content of some articles by the parents of some of these young people who have committed suicide as a result of cyber-bullying.

 

[scotsman]

Ah well but most of the 'free' news sites have most of the best investigative stories, Vice news and Huffington Post come to mind. Sites that try to generate money, write more about click bait articles and top 10 lists.

Murdoch owns shares in Vice, and indirectly owns HuffPost (through AOL)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah well but most of the 'free' news sites have most of the best investigative stories, Vice news and Huffington Post come to mind. Sites that try to generate money, write more about click bait articles and top 10 lists.

Vice Media is part-owned by the Walt Disney Company and the Huffington Post is owned by AOL. They may be many things (personally I can't stand Vice's gore or Arianna Huffington's smugness, but that's just personal taste) but they're not independent news sources striking out at The Man.

 

[muddythefish]

All news sources have an inherent bias, you choose your news source based on your bias. I'm a cynic so I buy Private Eye, I'm a left-leaning libertarian so I read the Grauniad. There is no such thing as unbiased news.

.

I buy all the broadsheets - the Times, Telegraph and Guardian - and although some stories have a slant I would not say they were biased in the same way as the Mail or Sun whose stories are often comment pieces dressed up as news.

I disagree that there is no such thing as "unbiased news". All of the above titles do report most stories in a straight way and I do not detect any bias on the BBC or Sky despite accusations (usually by the right) to the contrary.

Have to say I love the print media and there's nothing better than settling down to a good read with the newspaper with a cup of tea in the morning.

 

[Butts]

I buy all the broadsheets - the Times, Telegraph and Guardian - and although some stories have a slant I would not say they were biased in the same way as the Mail or Sun whose stories are often comment pieces dressed up as news.

I disagree that there is no such thing as "unbiased news". All of the above titles do report most stories in a straight way and I do not detect any bias on the BBC or Sky despite accusations (usually by the right) to the contrary.

Have to say I love the print media and there's nothing better than settling down to a good read with the newspaper with a cup of tea in the morning.

Hey what about The Independent - "it is are you" ?

Totally agree with your last paragraph

 

[muddythefish]

Hey what about The Independent - "it is are you" ?

Totally agree with your last paragraph

Isn't the Indie's a tabloid now ?

Forgot to mention I read the FT too !

 

[Seacook]

Hey what about The Independent - "it is are you" ?

The Independent hasn't been published in broadsheet format for years, so it is not strictly speaking a broadsheet newspaper. It is, however, a serious newspaper. The Financial Times is a broadsheet.

 

[Butts]

The Independent hasn't been published in broadsheet format for years, so it is not strictly speaking a broadsheet newspaper. It is, however, a serious newspaper. The Financial Times is a broadsheet.

Neither are The Times or even The Guardians "Berliner Format" - personally I preferred it when "Broadsheet" meant exactly that

 

[Seacook]

Neither are The Times or even The Guardians "Berliner Format" - personally I preferred it when "Broadsheet" meant exactly that

I was under the impression that The Times was printed in both broadsheet and tabloid format,. Has it now switched to tabloid only? I take your point about the Guardian.

I seem to recall that The Sun was originally published in broadsheet format. Aside from the physical appearance I don't think it met any other of the criteria for a "broadsheet".