222 on Derby Crewe route

[D1009]

On my journey north on the XC HST, I was surprised to see a Meridian at Derby with Crewe on its destination display, and on checking RTT it turned out to be 1K21 1642 Derby to Crewe. Does this happen often?

 

[theblackwatch]

Possibly due to Chesterfield playing against Crewe Alexandra today?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This year, it has been a regular occurrence.

For example, during the Watford Blockades, services were strengthened throughout the day - mixture of Meridian, 158 and 153 in multiple (x3).

On other Saturdays, and seemingly related to football fixtures, surprise appearances of Meridians have happened - as per your experience today.

Unfortunately the Meridians do not fit into all of the stations (Longton / Blythe Bridge) and announcements are not always made as to which carriage you need to be in for the doors to be adjacent to the platform, or the announcement is made on approach to the station, not leaving much time to scramble through a couple of carriages!

To be honest a minor quibble, EMT are to be praised for being pro-active in this matter. Now just need to get the one carriage wonder upgraded to a decent unit all day, every day.....

My evening return trips when a 158 is regularly provided are a complete contrast to the 153 provided in the morning outward trip i.e. They don't smell, have air conditioning and sufficient legroom.

 

[Welshman]

I think they've also been used on occasions when there has been a race meeting at Uttoxeter.

I agree with you - a big improvement on the usual 153!

Oh for the days when you could get a very comfortable Central Trains 170 all the way from Crewe to Grantham & Skegness!

 

[thenorthern]

Oh for the days when you could get a very comfortable Central Trains 170 all the way from Crewe to Grantham & Skegness!

And before that Manchester Airport to Skegness.

I noticed the meridian today and it has been making an appearance on the route a couple of times recently when the racing is on, I think it made its first appearance at the Midlands Grand National earlier this year.

I remember last year though when they used two 37s and 3 Mk2 coaches however there were more enthusiasts on that train than passengers so I don't think East Midlands Trains will do that again.

Once the MML is electrified though it may be where the 222s end up but we will have to wait and see.......

 

[Trainfan344]

We can live in hope.

 

[Welshman]

You could.
But then you'd be travelling on 142s and 150s.

 

[CyrixDes]

There was a big race meeting on at Uttoxeter today so that's why the 222 was out. In all fairness to EMT, for all the problems they have with overcrowding, they are pretty proactive with special event strengthening

 

[alex17595]

There wss also a triple 153 running about.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15175343133_bc0cf67d96_h.jpg

 

[LowLevel]

This year, it has been a regular occurrence.

For example, during the Watford Blockades, services were strengthened throughout the day - mixture of Meridian, 158 and 153 in multiple (x3).

On other Saturdays, and seemingly related to football fixtures, surprise appearances of Meridians have happened - as per your experience today.

Unfortunately the Meridians do not fit into all of the stations (Longton / Blythe Bridge) and announcements are not always made as to which carriage you need to be in for the doors to be adjacent to the platform, or the announcement is made on approach to the station, not leaving much time to scramble through a couple of carriages!

To be honest a minor quibble, EMT are to be praised for being pro-active in this matter. Now just need to get the one carriage wonder upgraded to a decent unit all day, every day.....

My evening return trips when a 158 is regularly provided are a complete contrast to the 153 provided in the morning outward trip i.e. They don't smell, have air conditioning and sufficient legroom.

The problem with the Crewe line is that except a couple of peak trains between Blythe and Stoke a 153 while unpopular is sufficient except on special events like this - there will be standees but everyone will get on, whereas EMT have plenty of 2 car trains on other routes that are full and standing anyway and leave people behind if they are 153s. I've seen 158s subbing for failed 153s and even on the high peak services out of Derby on a Friday which is the busy time on this line you have at least half a coach of empty seats.

 

[sd0733]

The meridian at least have the facility tO select doors to open so most doors open, I was on one from Crewe last night which was 156+153+153. No Sdo on those so was 1 door only at Alsager, longton and blythe bridge.

was speaking to one of the guards on the route and Emt are starting training the derby based guards on the 222s. As at present a mainline side train manager (for the traction) and a local conductor (for route knowledge) have to be used for a 222 to Crewe

 

[thenorthern]

I regularly use the line and the 06:40, 07:42, 08:42 and 09:42 departures from Derby normally mean standing room only particularly from Blythe Bridge onwards but at other times it normally empty where its not uncommon to have less than 5 people on the train.

From Stoke-on-Trent the 16:33, 17:33 and 18:33 departures are crammed but that's normal for trains anywhere in the country at that time. The main problem is the 16:33 and 17:33 departures from Stoke-on-Trent on a Friday where University students seem to use the train which can cause the train to be crammed and it takes 5-10 min just to get everyone on the train and its not uncommon for people to be left behind. East Midlands Trains have however lengthened some of the trains on Fridays but not all.

Longer and Faster trains would be nice as would more destinations such as Nottingham again and possibly Manchester although because of capacity constraints both of these are unlikely to happen. A cross-city line style service in Stoke would be nice as well but I can't see that ever happening.

 

[tocguard]

Yesterday's strengthened services were for the Uttoxeter race meeting. The diagrams were worked by:

- 1x4car Pioneer (Meridian)
- 1×156+2x153
- 3x153

More services on this route are planned to be operated by 222's over the Christmas period and it is correct that it is planned to train any Derby guard who wishes to sign the traction early next year.

With electrification on the horizon and no obvious use for the displaced 222's once this is complete, it would seem that they may replace sprinters on some local routes. Route clearance allows the 222 class to run Derby - Crewe, Nottingham - Matlock, Nottingham - Lincoln, Nottingham - Norwich.

Once line improvement works are complete on the Nottingham - Lincoln line, it opens up possibilities of running Crewe - Derby - Nottingham - Lincoln as a through service subject to Nottingham drivers signing the traction. The Matlock services are currently planned to continue past Nottingham to Newark as stoppers, so perhaps 222's could be used to form the new limited stop services between Nottingham and Lincoln, having worked through from Crewe. That would make sense, but remains to be seen.

 

[Class 170101]

. Route clearance allows the 222 class to run Derby - Crewe, Nottingham - Matlock, Nottingham - Lincoln, Nottingham - Norwich.

They are cleared to Norwich but are very unlikely to go there again as they are NOT permitted to Sprinter Speed Differentials east of Nottingham and lose a vast amount of time despite 125 running between Peterborough and Grantham.

Class 222s are cleared between Liverpool Lime Street and Nottingham and it is more likely the Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street route will be split at Nottingham with through passengers required to change between 158s and 222s at Nottingham, as happens during the Grand National at Aintree.

 

[MCR247]

Yesterday's strengthened services were for the Uttoxeter race meeting. The diagrams were worked by:

- 1x4car Pioneer (Meridian)
- 1×156+2x153
- 3x153

More services on this route are planned to be operated by 222's over the Christmas period and it is correct that it is planned to train any Derby guard who wishes to sign the traction early next year.

With electrification on the horizon and no obvious use for the displaced 222's once this is complete, it would seem that they may replace sprinters on some local routes. Route clearance allows the 222 class to run Derby - Crewe, Nottingham - Matlock, Nottingham - Lincoln, Nottingham - Norwich.

Once line improvement works are complete on the Nottingham - Lincoln line, it opens up possibilities of running Crewe - Derby - Nottingham - Lincoln as a through service subject to Nottingham drivers signing the traction. The Matlock services are currently planned to continue past Nottingham to Newark as stoppers, so perhaps 222's could be used to form the new limited stop services between Nottingham and Lincoln, having worked through from Crewe. That would make sense, but remains to be seen.

I very much doubt that their new homes will be on east midlands local services!

 

[Qwerty133]

I very much doubt that their new homes will be on east midlands local services!

Why, a 7 coach 125mph meridian wouldnt be at all wasted on the Matlock branch...

 

[thenorthern]

Crewe to Derby/Nottingham was allocated 170s most of the time until East Midlands Trains took over in Nov 2007 when they were replaced by 158s and then in Dec 2008 they were replaced by the 153s that we see today.

I can't see an extension to Nottingham happening again until Derby is rebuilt although I think Andrew Griffiths mentioned a few years ago that the line was going to be improved from 2015 hopefully they will replace the 6? signal boxes with 1 so that the trains can run later.

 

[tocguard]

Class 222s are cleared between Liverpool Lime Street and Nottingham and it is more likely the Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street route will be split at Nottingham with through passengers required to change between 158s and 222s at Nottingham, as happens during the Grand National at Aintree.

Yeah i didn't want to mention this route as it may well be transferring to the tpe franchise.

Also, MCR247, i don't see any reason why 222's couldn't be ran Crewe - Lincoln? I'd say that would be quite sensible. Most train diagrams mean the same units stay on the same route all day anyway so logistically it wouldn't be hard to allocate 222's just to this route. I'm not suggesting 222's would run around on all emt local routes just saying they have clearance on some should the need ever arise to have to use one. Ie a few months ago one was used to run a couple of Matlock runs due to severe shortage of sprinter units.

 

[Bevan Price]

The problem with the Crewe line is that except a couple of peak trains between Blythe and Stoke a 153 while unpopular is sufficient except on special events like this - there will be standees but everyone will get on, whereas EMT have plenty of 2 car trains on other routes that are full and standing anyway and leave people behind if they are 153s. I've seen 158s subbing for failed 153s and even on the high peak services out of Derby on a Friday which is the busy time on this line you have at least half a coach of empty seats.

Of course, that could be because they have lost a lot of passengers who were fed up with trying to squeeze into overcrowded 153s. Or maybe, has the introduction by EMT of parking charges at unstaffed stations caused some passengers to desert the line ?

My occasional trips on this line have seen lighter loads in the last year or two, compared with trips several years ago.

 

[thenorthern]

Of course, that could be because they have lost a lot of passengers who were fed up with trying to squeeze into overcrowded 153s. Or maybe, has the introduction by EMT of parking charges at unstaffed stations caused some passengers to desert the line ?

My occasional trips on this line have seen lighter loads in the last year or two, compared with trips several years ago.

Passenger numbers at stations along the line are going up.

 

[tocguard]

I work this route very regularly and 153's long term are simply not sufficient. Even middle of day services can carry 40+ passengers which yes a 153 is sufficient but due to the way the train diagrams work mean that the same sets stay on the route all day which causes problems between 6am - 9am and again from 4pm until last services really as they can be very busy as people don't have much choice of services returning from Crewe at night. It would be ok if there were spare 153's that could be coupled/uncoupled for peak periods by being shunted to/from Etches Pk but there simply aren't any spare units.

The usual twice monthly Uttoxeter races and other events in addition to the extra demand during the above hours mean single 153's are just not an option looking forward.

Already having drivers who sign both 222's and the route at Derby and starting to train Derby guards on the traction while at the same time often having at least 2x 4 car Pioneer 222 units sat around Etches Pk doing nothing most days may mean we see them more regular in the future.

 

[High Dyke]

Once line improvement works are complete on the Nottingham - Lincoln line, it opens up possibilities of running Crewe - Derby - Nottingham - Lincoln as a through service subject to Nottingham drivers signing the traction. The Matlock services are currently planned to continue past Nottingham to Newark as stoppers, so perhaps 222's could be used to form the new limited stop services between Nottingham and Lincoln, having worked through from Crewe. That would make sense, but remains to be seen.

I would agree with you about the possibilities of a through Crewe - Lincoln service; something not seen for many years. However using them on the new Nottingham - Lincoln semi-fast service would also mean that traincrew based at Lincoln would require training on them, as opposed to the odd route conducting journey on them.

 

[thenorthern]

Are the units allowed to go up to 110 between Stoke and Kidsgrove? (I think that's the limit)

It seems an HST has run it as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D-hOl5GjHA

If some units are spare a Derby-Uttoxeter-Stoke-on-Trent-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester train would be nice and with 125 MPH capable stock it shouldn't be too hard to path it but I think that's a distant dream.

 

[embers25]

I work this route very regularly and 153's long term are simply not sufficient. Even middle of day services can carry 40+ passengers which yes a 153 is sufficient but due to the way the train diagrams work mean that the same sets stay on the route all day which causes problems between 6am - 9am and again from 4pm until last services really as they can be very busy as people don't have much choice of services returning from Crewe at night. It would be ok if there were spare 153's that could be coupled/uncoupled for peak periods by being shunted to/from Etches Pk but there simply aren't any spare units.

The usual twice monthly Uttoxeter races and other events in addition to the extra demand during the above hours mean single 153's are just not an option looking forward.

Already having drivers who sign both 222's and the route at Derby and starting to train Derby guards on the traction while at the same time often having at least 2x 4 car Pioneer 222 units sat around Etches Pk doing nothing most days may mean we see them more regular in the future.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the Pioneers on Nottm-Liverpool and put the replaced 158 on the Crewe?

 

[tocguard]

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the Pioneers on Nottm-Liverpool and put the replaced 158 on the Crewe?

It would but seating capacity is greater per 4 coaches of 158 over a 222 and this would also necessitate a change of train in Nottingham for through passengers from Norwich which the company are not keen to do, nor users of the route, which has recently seen been a big campaign about keeping the route as one.

It is somewhat likely the route may be broken up anyway and if this is the case, as previously mentioned in this thread, the NOT - LIV section would transfer to the TPE franchise. So long term there it is in no one's interests to put Pioneers on the NOT - LIV section.

 

[LowLevel]

Traction and route knowledge cause a lot of issues as the guards grades were never harmonised. That said I've also heard whispers of Nottingham conductors learning 222s as well so you never know I guess - there's already a few who sign HSTs. Derby guards don't go east of Nottingham either.

 

[tocguard]

Derby guards don't go east of Nottingham either.

Some do, some sign Lincoln. Not heard of Notts guards signing 222's though??? Have heard today though that Derby drivers who sign Crewe and 222's will not be learning Lincoln. This means the May tt change of Matlock's extending to Newark will require change of crew at Nottingham. Nothing has been said about all the Derby guards having to sign Lincoln either which just leaves a few who do. With only Notts and Lincoln signing that route, one wonders whether there's going to be enough crew to work the additional 24 services. Many would doubt we've got sufficient availability of units to run that level of service!

 

[43074]

Some do, some sign Lincoln. Not heard of Notts guards signing 222's though??? Have heard today though that Derby drivers who sign Crewe and 222's will not be learning Lincoln. This means the May tt change of Matlock's extending to Newark will require change of crew at Nottingham. Nothing has been said about all the Derby guards having to sign Lincoln either which just leaves a few who do. With only Notts and Lincoln signing that route, one wonders whether there's going to be enough crew to work the additional 24 services. Many would doubt we've got sufficient availability of units to run that level of service!

It was mentioned in an article in Modern Railways magazine that EMT may be hiring a 158/8 from South West Trains as cover for the new service although I think you are right about there being too few units at the moment.

 

[LowLevel]

Some do, some sign Lincoln. Not heard of Notts guards signing 222's though??? Have heard today though that Derby drivers who sign Crewe and 222's will not be learning Lincoln. This means the May tt change of Matlock's extending to Newark will require change of crew at Nottingham. Nothing has been said about all the Derby guards having to sign Lincoln either which just leaves a few who do. With only Notts and Lincoln signing that route, one wonders whether there's going to be enough crew to work the additional 24 services. Many would doubt we've got sufficient availability of units to run that level of service!

The Newarks are mainly to be worked by Nottingham with a few by Lincoln or Boston possibly - there's enough slack at Nottingham to allow it. The Derby guards who sign Lincoln (and the one or two who sign Skegness) don't sign it as part of their booked workload and only maintain it by doing rest day work or Sundays from other depots as cover - they brought the knowledge from elsewhere and weren't trained at Derby. Whether that is a satisfactory state of affairs for retaining regular working knowledge is a different matter!

 

[thenorthern]

If it is split TPE and EMT the TPE staff almost certainly won't be based in Nottingham, I would think Sheffield or Manchester.

I can't see 222s being used on the Derwent Valley Line the stations for a start would be too short but also at the end of the day it is still a branch line which can't justify using 125 MPH capable stock for a few small places.