My idea to change Departure indicator monitors

[Oscar]

Ideally all screens should show two or three major stations en route as well as the final destination for most services e.g.

Knaresborough Harrogate Leeds (at York)
Crewe Shrewsbury Cardiff C (at Manchester Picadilly)
York Newcastle Edinburgh (at London King's Cross)
Cambridge Ely King's Lynn (at London King's Cross)

At some stations the boards only show final destinations apart from the next trains to arrive, or the main boards are only located at one place in the station, not convenient for people changing trains. This suggestion would make it easier in particular for people changing to find their trains. It is the standard in Switzerland and (I think) the Netherlands. It is used on concourses in Germany rather than boards each displaying an individual trains. It would require a different monitor design so could not be implemented overnight.

See the image halfway down this page: http://www.fransmensonides.nl/valleilijn2.htm
See the first two images here: https://www.ecosia.org/search/images/q/Abfahrtstafel+SBB

 

[Bletchleyite]

At some stations the boards only show final destinations apart from the next trains to arrive, or the main boards are only located at one place in the station, not convenient for people changing trains. This suggestion would make it easier in particular for people changing to find their trains. It is the standard in Switzerland and (I think) the Netherlands.

Via points are often added where relevant, e.g. via Northampton on south WCML services. The only trouble with adding them on the orange LED type displays is they take an extra line.

The Swiss boards aren't a great example of good practice, as in some places it is the case that a particular stop is not shown anywhere on a station and you just have to know. This used to be the case for Vevey from Geneva Airport, and still is for many smaller stations. The Netherlands is perhaps a little different because they operate a pure clockface timetable (the Swiss almost do but not quite) and so you can derive stopping points by looking at the maps on the yellow posters.

With long-distance services I do wonder if a train number is the best solution (the Retail Service ID) - but this has rarely been UK practice, and even displays intended for the purpose on Pendolinos are now just displaying the reporting number.

FWIW on the platforms SBB and NS never show the second train, so the UK wins here in showing *something* (except VT stations that don't).

Neil

 

[Oscar]

Via points are often added where relevant, e.g. via Northampton on south WCML services.

I think they're relevant much more even when there's only one possible route, most people's knowledge of railway geography is poor.

With long-distance services I do wonder if a train number is the best solution (the Retail Service ID) - but this has rarely been UK practice, and even displays intended for the purpose on Pendolinos are now just displaying the reporting number.

Neil

People are bombarded train numbers in all announcements in a lot of Europe and I think most people don't pay a lot of attention (though some do).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FWIW on the platforms SBB and NS never show the second train, so the UK wins here in showing *something* (except VT stations that don't).

Neil

Depends whether we're talking about the (upright rectangle-shaped) boards which show just the current train or the (horizontal rectangle-shaped) boards which show three trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People are bombarded train numbers in all announcements in a lot of Europe and I think most people don't pay a lot of attention (though some do).

I think they come in useful particularly where you have two trains at the same time. Euston might need this from December where there are two peak-time LM departures at the same time - if I recall rightly they are xx24, though I expect they will have problems with this and end up nominally retiming one in the public timetable to xx23 (a bit like even where you have pure-clockface with xx00 all day you always have 2359/0001 instead to avoid any confusion on which day 0000 belongs to).

Neil

 

[3141]

I think they come in useful particularly where you have two trains at the same time. Euston might need this from December where there are two peak-time LM departures at the same time - if I recall rightly they are xx24, though I expect they will have problems with this and end up nominally retiming one in the public timetable to xx23 (a bit like even where you have pure-clockface with xx00 all day you always have 2359/0001 instead to avoid any confusion on which day 0000 belongs to).

Neil

When the 24 hour clock was introduced for timetables, it was stated that 0000 would be used for departures at midnight, and 2400 for arrivals.

Either of those should be clear to people reading a timetable because they'll have the context of earlier times 23XX and/or later times 00XX. I think they stopped using 0000 because people couldn't grasp the idea of a time with no hours and no minutes.

 

[LateThanNever]

When the 24 hour clock was introduced for timetables, it was stated that 0000 would be used for departures at midnight, and 2400 for arrivals.

Either of those should be clear to people reading a timetable because they'll have the context of earlier times 23XX and/or later times 00XX. I think they stopped using 0000 because people couldn't grasp the idea of a time with no hours and no minutes.

There are not many things where 4 0s will do what 1 won't and it is confusing. The idea might be fine but seeing 4 0s on a departure indicator does suggest it's reverted to reset!

 

[SPADTrap]

Ideally all screens should show two or three major stations en route as well as the final destination for most services e.g.

Knaresborough Harrogate Leeds (at York)
Crewe Shrewsbury Cardiff C (at Manchester Picadilly)
York Newcastle Edinburgh (at London King's Cross)
Cambridge Ely King's Lynn (at London King's Cross)

At some stations the boards only show final destinations apart from the next trains to arrive, or the main boards are only located at one place in the station, not convenient for people changing trains. This suggestion would make it easier in particular for people changing to find their trains. It is the standard in Switzerland and (I think) the Netherlands. It is used on concourses in Germany rather than boards each displaying an individual trains. It would require a different monitor design so could not be implemented overnight.

See the image halfway down this page: http://www.fransmensonides.nl/valleilijn2.htm
See the first two images here: https://www.ecosia.org/search/images/q/Abfahrtstafel+SBB

Which boards at Kings Cross? Because the main departure boards list all calling stations and the boards at the platforms do the same: "Kings Lynn, Via Cambridge" in your example, as does the 365 PIS

Kings Lynn
Via Cambridge

Cambridge
Via Stevenage

And so on.

 

[Bevan Price]

The thing I hate about departure monitors is when you have a tight connection, and the only departure monitor is displaying some infernal security / safety message for what seems like an age.

 

[Oscar]

Which boards at Kings Cross? Because the main departure boards list all calling stations and the boards at the platforms do the same: "Kings Lynn, Via Cambridge" in your example, as does the 365 PIS

Kings Lynn
Via Cambridge

Cambridge
Via Stevenage

And so on.

The boards near the ticket barriers on the footbridge should show more via points. But I admit that this was a very bad example. Ely would be a better example - my father was at Ely a year or so ago and didn't realise that the train to London went via Cambridge. I think don't think that most people have much knowledge of rail geography outside their local area.

 

[alexl92]

At Leeds, the boards in the North Concourse have just the main destinations on them, then immediately after the ticket barriers on the platform is a set of digital boards with every single station served and where and when to get the next train to that place.
Plus on every platform you get the board displaying where the next train is going and all the stops.

If that isn't enough, there's also about 4 info desks. It's great, cannot complain.

 

[Deerfold]

The boards near the ticket barriers on the footbridge should show more via points. But I admit that this was a very bad example. Ely would be a better example - my father was at Ely a year or so ago and didn't realise that the train to London went via Cambridge. I think don't think that most people have much knowledge of rail geography outside their local area.

Some years ago mu mum and sister caught the train from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly where I'd arranged to meet them and we were to travel home together. I'd assumed their flight must have been late (pre us having mobile phones...) but they'd waited at the airport for a train going to Manchester and let Blackpool, Leeds services etc go before catching an all stops to Piccadilly as the boards only gave the final destinations and they hadn't realised all the services went via Manchester. My mum was most embarrassed when I explained.

I think the displays there have been improved now.

At Leeds, the boards in the North Concourse have just the main destinations on them, then immediately after the ticket barriers on the platform is a set of digital boards with every single station served and where and when to get the next train to that place.

Useful but very badly placed as anyone who's unsure where they're going gets through the barriers and then stops.

 

[PHILIPE]

Bristol Temple Meads can be a bugbear where some of the screens on ly show one page and others scroll over two. Those showing one page can be a nuisance when you are changing and looking for the platform of your connection which isn't showing due to only the next handful of trains being displayed due to such an intensive train service.

 

[RailAleFan]

A possible problem with limiting the display to major stations is that it could be mis-interpreted as the complete list possibly leading to confusion. Using "Via" - which they do, is fine as long as you understand the meaning of Via of course but these lists are mostly just one or two principal stations.

I used to work in this area, have a keen interst in user experience and have recently been playing with ATOC's Live Departure Boards web service on a personal project so I thought I'd put it online and mock-up a live departure board showing the full calling point list of each service.

Somewhere like Rugby shows the value of providing the full calling point list throughout the station where many people will be changing services (they may well do - I haven't been through there in some time) but it has frequent departures to London Euston with varying operators and calling points:

http://www.railalefan.co.uk/live-departures/cis.php?info=2&crs=RUG

(hope it's OK to link, nothing commercial about it at all)

If you change info=2 to info=1 in the URL the LDBWS generated "Via" lists will be displayed (where available) instead of the full calling point list. Manchester Piccadilly normally has a few services with via information provided...

http://www.railalefan.co.uk/live-departures/cis.php?info=1&crs=MAN

The above links are styled for a very large display resolutions - on smaller screens they will look a bit odd at first but you can use CTRL/minus to scale down in most browsers, and F11 to go full screen to get the general idea...

Anyone know which regular UK service has the most calling points?

 

[W230]

The thing I hate about departure monitors is when you have a tight connection, and the only departure monitor is displaying some infernal security / safety message for what seems like an age.

Thought it was just me that got annoyed by this! I timed it once and it stayed on "departures" for 13 seconds then "Special Notices" for 17 seconds. There were no special notices.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There are not many things where 4 0s will do what 1 won't and it is confusing. The idea might be fine but seeing 4 0s on a departure indicator does suggest it's reverted to reset!

Do any trains in the public timetable have 0000 or 2400 departure or arrival timings?

 

[Deerfold]

Do any trains in the public timetable have 0000 or 2400 departure or arrival timings?

Not according to the National Rail Timetable:

Do not worry about the ambiguity as to which day Midnight itself belongs, for, to avoid this problem, all times skip from
2359 to 0001 and neither 0000 nor 2400 is ever used!

 

[D1009]

I believe the main reason for this originally was that early computer software couldn't handle it.

 

[RailAleFan]

At Leeds, the boards in the North Concourse have just the main destinations on them, then immediately after the ticket barriers on the platform is a set of digital boards with every single station served and where and when to get the next train to that place.
Plus on every platform you get the board displaying where the next train is going and all the stops.

The "Next Train To" is a nice concept, but needs to be done with care at stations serving many destinations to avoid becoming information overload. The version at Manchester Piccadilly is huge, and somewhat annoyingly, rather than being static cycles between two pages on a frequency that is almost exactly equal to how long it takes you to find your destination on the display!

 

[jon0844]

Which boards at Kings Cross? Because the main departure boards list all calling stations and the boards at the platforms do the same: "Kings Lynn, Via Cambridge" in your example, as does the 365 PIS

Kings Lynn
Via Cambridge

Cambridge
Via Stevenage

And so on.

The 'via Stevenage' bit is obviously from when it was WAGN and although there's no harm saying it, people at King's Cross aren't going to need to worry about accidentally getting one that goes via Harlow. There's not even anything to say that you need to go to Liverpool Street for the other route. Likewise nothing at LST about faster services from KGX.

To me, while there might be a valid argument for a different way to show major cities or connections on Intercity services, I don't think the via is needed for the GN services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "Next Train To" is a nice concept, but needs to be done with care at stations serving many destinations to avoid becoming information overload. The version at Manchester Piccadilly is huge, and somewhat annoyingly, rather than being static cycles between two pages on a frequency that is almost exactly equal to how long it takes you to find your destination on the display!

I think it's telling that the main board of no other station has been done like Manc Picc. I imagine if it breaks it will be replaced with a more conventional orange LED setup.

I agree it'd be better if it was static and showing different information on the 2 (I think) panels, so if your train isn't on one you walk round and find it on the other.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 'via Stevenage' bit is obviously from when it was WAGN and although there's no harm saying it, people at King's Cross aren't going to need to worry about accidentally getting one that goes via Harlow.

It's there to point out that the train stops at Stevenage, as most Cambridge trains during the day are non-stop.

 

[RailAleFan]

Too much information?

http://www.railalefan.co.uk/live-departures/cis2.php?crs=RUG

This is a "Next train to..." (Destinations) board mock-up derived from the distinct calling point list of the next 10 departures.

As before it's scaled for a very large display size - use CTRL/minus to scale down and F11 to go full screen to get the general idea.

Obviously limited by the real time information available via LDBWS, services only included if a numeric scheduled or expected time is available for both the calling point _AND_ the associated departure.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The system in place at London Marylebone is very good:

Beneath the large boards displaying the next six departures is a seventh board which will cycle through a list of next train to (popular destination) information for those places which get a lot of traffic but aren't the destination of any of the trains. The example above (found on Google images) is displaying information about Bicester Village, it could show Wembley Stadium when there is an England game on, Birmingham in the evening peak when Birmingham trains are extended to Kidderminster or anything else which might be useful to passengers. I'm surprised it's not been more widely adopted at other stations.

 

[jon0844]

Too much information?

That's awesome, as are the other links posted earlier.

This sort of view is something that should be a smartphone app. A very simple way to effectively see the boards at stations without having to stand in front of them, or wait as smaller displays page through various safety alerts and other crap when you've only got a matter of minutes to go - or you've got a bit more time but want to know quickly so you can pop to the toilet or grab a coffee etc.

Of course any app can let you do more detailed searching to 'drill down' the specific train you want, but this is quicker and easier. It's particularly good when you just bookmark one link, and can use it when travelling to different destinations.

Nice one!

 

[RailAleFan]

That's awesome, as are the other links posted earlier.

This sort of view is something that should be a smartphone app. A very simple way to effectively see the boards at stations without having to stand in front of them, or wait as smaller displays page through various safety alerts and other crap when you've only got a matter of minutes to go - or you've got a bit more time but want to know quickly so you can pop to the toilet or grab a coffee etc.

Of course any app can let you do more detailed searching to 'drill down' the specific train you want, but this is quicker and easier. It's particularly good when you just bookmark one link, and can use it when travelling to different destinations.

Nice one!

Thanks!

Not an app (easily could be of course) but here's a "responsive" version of the destinations A-Z which should look great on any display size from mobile upwards...

http://www.railalefan.co.uk/rail/destinations/Rugby/

Still WiP so you may encounter the odd glitch. I'm looking at how to handle transient "DELAYED" services without access to the same level of detail as on-station systems e.g. whether not to consider a destination if no expected time available, or maybe to show scheduled departure time and highlight the fact that the providing service may be delayed...

 

[RailAleFan]

I think it's telling that the main board of no other station has been done like Manc Picc. I imagine if it breaks it will be replaced with a more conventional orange LED setup.

I agree it'd be better if it was static and showing different information on the 2 (I think) panels, so if your train isn't on one you walk round and find it on the other.

Neil

Looks like plans are afoot to improve things at MAN. Hopefully not precisely like this - no need (IMHO) for zero-padded platform numbers, and TOC doesn't really mean anything to Joe Public - just use "Operator"...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather they just removed the advertising from above the platform entrances and installed a traditional departure board up there.

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

I'd rather they just removed the advertising from above the platform entrances and installed a traditional departure board up there.

A board above the platform entrances may not be the best idea as the people standing and staring at it tend to get in the way of others hurrying to catch trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A board above the platform entrances may not be the best idea as the people standing and staring at it tend to get in the way of others hurrying to catch trains.

Fair point. OK, instead of that replace the present odd LCD thing with some gantries containing a standard LED board set, a la Paddington.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like plans are afoot to improve things at MAN. Hopefully not precisely like this - no need (IMHO) for zero-padded platform numbers, and TOC doesn't really mean anything to Joe Public - just use "Operator"...

And abbreviate the operators, not the destinations.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

TOC is rather silly. Even more silly for foreigners trying to figure out what it means!