Better night services and Sunday services would be nice, and not just in the north. But until the things that DaveNewcastle mentions are properly taken into account when assessing the additional costs, it will be very difficult to achieve proper improvements.
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Could/should there be more night services in the North?
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I appreciate that extra services would need extra funding. Besides that, in the short term even if the funding (for more 'spare' trains, extra staff etc.) was available, there'd be quite a long lead time for any changes to take place. However in the coming years the rolling stock situation could improve with all the cascaded EMUs, if a case can be made for a bit more 'wiggle-room' in the fleet provision (and I'd like to think it could be), perhaps Sunday services at least might slowly improve. With the understanding that every so often bustitution would be necessary, of course.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I'm not sure how it varies around the country. However, on most of the routes around Manchester on weekdays there are extra services to Manchester in the morning peak (06:30 to 08:30) and away from Manchester in the evening peak (16:30 to 18:30.) On Saturdays there are still peak times in terms of the number of people using services (around 10:30 to 13:30 in the Manchester and 16:30 to 19:30 away from Manchester) but there's no extra services during the busy periods.
Yes, that's a point. I wonder how many rail users would prioritise additional 'through the night' services and more Sunday trains over additional capacity on Saturdays?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not many I'd think.
But you could provide extra capacity more cheaply by running more 4-car trains on Saturdays - that way you don't have the staff cost which is significant, even more so on Sundays (which are also getting rather busy in places).
Neil
From Knottingley I can arrive in Leeds at 23:44, yet my last train back has left over an hour and a half before that!
I would love to see extra 23:05 and 00:05 services to Knottingley, the fact I can get a bus to Castleford 30 or so minutes after the last train service there is a bit crazy really!
I would love to see extra 23:05 and 00:05 services to Knottingley, the fact I can get a bus to Castleford 30 or so minutes after the last train service there is a bit crazy really!
Not that it's an either/or situation. I suspect a lot of people with train services ending at 22:30 probably would prioritise later services, partcularly as saturday overcrowding is an issue that tends to crop up at certain times of year whereas inadequate evening services are a nuisence all year round.
having been aboard the p**head train, ie a late evening weekend TPE service from Leeds to Manchester as far as Huddersfield I can see why you wouldn't want to run many of these trains, also appeared to have private security aboard as well to try and keep order.
Wasn't there a spell of axing some late night services out of Sheffield quite a few years ago due to too much trouble.
Wasn't there a spell of axing some late night services out of Sheffield quite a few years ago due to too much trouble.
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Had some fun recently going to Moses Gate for an evening out - I could, technically, get back to Manchester as there is just one late evening train - in the wrong direction, but the timetable assured me I could get this train to Bolton and then travel back through Moses Gate on the fast train. However, with the bustitution going on I figured it was anyone's guess if and when I could actually get home this way, so in the end I walked down to Farnworth and caught the Stagecoach 38 service bus.
Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate are not some tiny villages so to withdraw all the evening services except this solitary train is a disgrace.
Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate are not some tiny villages so to withdraw all the evening services except this solitary train is a disgrace.
That's pretty shocking; I'm sure your MP would love to know why parts of her community are so poorly served by rail.
It's almost a self-perpetuating sort of cycle - if there's no services no-one gets to use them, and if no-one uses them then there's no real incentive to introduce new ones anyway!
Iskra
Established Member
I've not had any problems on the late night TPE services between Leeds-Manchester. The worst I've come across are the last TPE trains from Lancaster towards Barrow. They had bouncers on but I've still seen large groups of rowdy folk being abusive/aggressive and even ****ing around with fire-extinguishers! Not great when you're sober.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have on a number of occasions been disgusted by the mainly alcohol-fuelled behaviour on fTPE services at different times of day. The North West of today doesn't feel like the more friendly and respectful place I left in 2001. And you don't get *anything like* that sort of trouble on late-night drunkard expresses out of Euston (and I've used the 0010 on a Saturday, and the 0134 on a weekday, on a number of occasions).
Makes me sad.
Neil
DarloRich
Veteran Member
because it is just that easy isn't it :roll: Clueless
Eh
Clueless because you seem to think you just chuck on engineering work whenever you please. Why do you think most of it happens over night? Often the last couple of trains are cancelled to offer a slightly larger window for the work. You get 7 hours max (a lot less in some places) which when you set up and take down gives you a couple of hours to work in. If you want to run more trains over night you have to move the maintenance works. When do you want the work doing?
That is before we even consider the process of getting the TOCs to ok the work. They all want more reliability but dont seem to want to offer the access to make it happen often enough.
Iskra
Established Member
Walked over the bridge at Lancaster today and there's signs warning people about their behaviour on late night TPE services to Barrow. They say you have to be able to walk, or they won't let you on the train...
Darn right too! I've read on this forum alone four instances of staff being physically assaulted by drunken pax and it's disgusting.
I suppose it also has the added effect of preventing another incident similar to James Street.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they're going to Ulverston, chuck them off at Arnside or something if they misbehave, it's a hell of a walk round
(Actually in all seriousness there is a big issue with trespass there because the railway bridge is such a shortcut. They really could have done with adding a footpath to the side when they rebuilt it).
Neil
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I am getting fed up of hearing about it...and it seems mainly to be happening in the North. What gives? In the late 1990s I spent plenty of evenings taking late night services around the North West - it simply wasn't like that back then, and it isn't like that to anything like the same extent in the South East now.
Neil
Why wait until Arnside?! Kick them off at CarnforthIf they're going to Ulverston, chuck them off at Arnside or something if they misbehave, it's a hell of a walk round
(Actually in all seriousness there is a big issue with trespass there because the railway bridge is such a shortcut. They really could have done with adding a footpath to the side when they rebuilt it).
I am getting fed up of hearing about it...and it seems mainly to be happening in the North. What gives? In the late 1990s I spent plenty of evenings taking late night services around the North West - it simply wasn't like that back then, and
it isn't like that to anything like the same extent in the South East now.
Us Northerners have a disproportionate amount of ASBO generation louts with no regard for other people, because that's just how they were raised. There was one only recently about someone with a string of 46 prior offences (with at least ten convictions for assault) who - guess what - thought he'd take it upon himself to t*** a conductor.
LM have taken the positive step of banning alcohol on some of their prime 'drunk trains' and Merseyrail have banned it altogether for several years. It'd be shameful if more TOCs had to resort to such extreme measures, but I'd rather that than have some inebriated idiot make life misery for the rest of us.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd be interested to know how well that works, given that very few people are seen actually consuming alcohol on late-night LM trains out of Euston - the issue, if there is going to be one (rare except in Christmas party season), is caused by them having *already* consumed it to excess.
Neil
The sober LM trains are ex-Liverpool
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The sober LM trains are ex-Liverpool
I know
My point is that they aren't necessary out of London, and I believe LM when asked about it on their Twitter agreed that was the case as well.The only on-board drinking you tend to see on LM services out of London is commuters having a swift can on the way home.
Neil
How well enforced is that? As well as on LO (i.e.not at all)?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I see certain posters have taken the opportunity to bash the North... :roll:
Yes, the late services out of Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester do have a fair few idiots on them, but to suggest that this doesn't also happen in the South East is (in my experience) far from the truth... I've only ever felt genuinely intimidated by drunken behaviour on late night trains a handful of times... All bar one of these were services out of Waterloo towards such ASBO-tastic destinations such as Hampton Court; Farnham and Guildford.
Yes, the late services out of Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester do have a fair few idiots on them, but to suggest that this doesn't also happen in the South East is (in my experience) far from the truth... I've only ever felt genuinely intimidated by drunken behaviour on late night trains a handful of times... All bar one of these were services out of Waterloo towards such ASBO-tastic destinations such as Hampton Court; Farnham and Guildford.
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