Could/should there be more night services in the North?

[IanXC]

I've been on the overnight TPE services on a Friday and Saturday and never really seen any trouble being caused by the motley collection of drunken clubbers. Presumably the fact the stations are primarily barriered has some impact on who boards, but other than out of use toilets the train seemed fine.

 

[northwichcat]

<looks at map>

Nope, there are plenty of non-dualled alternatives.

Neil

Just looking at a map and I remembered, some dual carriageways lose their central reservation and go down to a 60mph limit retaining 2 lanes in both directions, so it still feels like a dual carriageway but is technically a single carriageway. The A556 between Lostock Gralam and Bowdon is an example of that.

 

[DarloRich]

The arguments against are ... and when would engineering work take place on the 24-hr lines.

The second one is obvious, any time they like, just use replacement buses (as they do on the 0016 Picc - Bolton Sunday am service - when was that last a train)?

because it is just that easy isn't it :roll: Clueless

 

[Starmill]

What is wrong with nightbuses?

Some of those would be good too! Sadly there is no meaningful post midnight service in West Yorkshire on any route but the 1, which is just Leeds station to a little past Headingley.
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I hardly think cutting back from 9 to 6tph is all that dramatic. From an excessive service to a still excellent one.

Who is proposing to cut services to Manchester Airport thusly? How many units will it save, and what improvements could be made elsewhere by breaking 3 routes connections to Manchester Airport?
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Nightbuses would be great. There's one in West Yorkshire serving the highest density area of student population in Leeds.

If I had a nightbus or night train I'd certainly go out in Leeds more often than I do with a £60 quid taxi fare home.

That'll teach me not to read the whole thread before posting!

Glad you got there before I did

Nobody cares about the night-time economy in West Yorkshire enough to consider any transport services worthwhile.

First even have the cheek not to accept Metro tickets on the 1 after midnight.
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Just looking at a map and I remembered, some dual carriageways lose their central reservation and go down to a 60mph limit retaining 2 lanes in both directions, so it still feels like a dual carriageway but is technically a single carriageway. The A556 between Lostock Gralam and Bowdon is an example of that.

And a lovely pleasant road the A556 is!!!!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I remember when I lived in Headingley being told of the legend of the night bus. Having spent ages waiting for one on a few occasions, all to no avail it felt as though I'd have more chance spotting Lord Lucan or the abomnible snowman and gave up.

 

[The Planner]

because it is just that easy isn't it :roll: Clueless

Course it is, silly, we can take blocks anytime we like with no notice and with the operators always agreeing.

 

[oddiesjack]

With regard to early-morning buses into Manchester Airport, the 199 Skyline Bus from High Peak buses starts running at 0340 from Dove Holes depot and runs hourly until the 0610 ex-Buxton then half-hourly.

So for the people along the A6 corridor from the south into Stockport, there are definitely buses getting to the airport before 0730.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who is proposing to cut services to Manchester Airport thusly? How many units will it save, and what improvements could be made elsewhere by breaking 3 routes connections to Manchester Airport?

Me. It would free up at least one 185 which could be used to allay serious overcrowding elsewhere on TPE.

And a lovely pleasant road the A556 is!!!!

Probably not so bad to cycle on at the crack of dawn before the buses and trains have started, though. Once they have, no issue, use them instead of cycling. A folding bike might be a useful consideration.

Neil

 

[Howardh]

because it is just that easy isn't it :roll: Clueless

Eh

 

[northwichcat]

Me. It would free up at least one 185 which could be used to allay serious overcrowding elsewhere on TPE.

And other people in the 319 thread which went off-topic.

I pointed out the following in that thread:

Question to ask is would not running to the Airport actually free up units in some cases or just result in a lot of trains sitting idle between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Junction? The train from Llandudno arrives at Piccadilly at xx:56 but doesn't depart for Llandudno again until xx:50, so would extending that service to the Airport require an extra unit? Possibly not.

Also worth remembering TPE use the frequent Airport-Piccadilly service to their advantage when trains get delayed as they turn services around at Piccadilly to make up time. If they didn't run to the Airport and had short turnarounds at Piccadilly then you could, for instance, see South TPE turned around at Stockport during disruption to make up time.

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Probably not so bad to cycle on at the crack of dawn before the buses and trains have started, though.

Don't forget the buses may leave the depot an hour or so before they start services. For instance, GHA have a bus running from their Tarvin depot to Wilmslow in time for a service to depart at 06:36.

 

[ChathillMan]

Used to be a 2:10 from Newcastle to Manchester until a couple of years back, that used the be an "interesting" experience on a weekend

 

[Starmill]

Me. It would free up at least one 185 which could be used to allay serious overcrowding elsewhere on TPE.

Which 3 routes will lose their direct service to the Airport, then? And I'm not at all convinced diagramming could be tightened up enough to release a unit from any of the three. It's not like punctuality is brilliant at present!

A solution I'd be in favour of would be to drop one of the fasts and simply add the other 4 stops to Blackpool services all day so they all get 3tph rather than two. Heald Green still gets 4. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which 3 routes will lose their direct service to the Airport, then?

I'd lose the ones that reverse at Manc Picc. I think there are 3 of those, right?

More "would lose" than "will lose" though - I have no idea if anyone in authority agrees with me.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

I'd lose the ones that reverse at Manc Picc. I think there are 3 of those, right?

More "would lose" than "will lose" though - I have no idea if anyone in authority agrees with me.

Neil

Middlesborough, Cleethorpes and York have services to MIA which reverse at MAN. There are also variations sometimes.

York only has 2 direct services to Man Airport per hour, so would severing these really be a good idea?
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A solution I'd be in favour of would be to drop one of the fasts and simply add the other 4 stops to Blackpool services all day so they all get 3tph rather than two. Heald Green still gets 4. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I

I too would be in favour of that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Middlesborough, Cleethorpes and York have services to MIA which reverse at MAN. There are also variations sometimes.

York only has 2 direct services to Man Airport per hour, so would severing these really be a good idea?

Ideal, no, but TPE's situation is not ideal, and there are connections.

Neil

 

[anme]

You live near Paddington and are going to Heathrow? Or near a Thameslink station and going to Gatwick? Or at Piccadilly, Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley or Heald Green and going to Manchester Airport?

I doubt there are all that many others - the walk to the station is often the killer time-wise if you're talking crack of dawn flights as I was. You don't get much traffic anywhere heading to an airport for 5am.

Neil

Those are some examples, yes.

The unreliability of morning taxis is not about traffic in my experience. It's about them not turning up in the first place. When I used to make regular early morning trips to airports a few years ago, I never found a taxi company that was reliable for a 4-5am journey. This was why I much preferred the train when it was possible to use it, and would take it even for trips where it was a bit slower.

Just my experience and opinions, of course.

 

[Andyh82]

Rather than actual night trains, finishing service an hour or two later than present would be better, ie. around Midnight rather than last trains being 11pm or even 10pm on some routes.

Going out by train and having to leave at 10:30 to head to the station to catch the last train is ridiculous. The same applies to the buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those are some examples, yes.

The unreliability of morning taxis is not about traffic in my experience. It's about them not turning up in the first place. When I used to make regular early morning trips to airports a few years ago, I never found a taxi company that was reliable for a 4-5am journey. This was why I much preferred the train when it was possible to use it, and would take it even for trips where it was a bit slower.

Just my experience and opinions, of course.

Is that a North West thing? In Milton Keynes I have rarely had issues, only ones have been overtired drivers who have done the nights first rather than not showing up at all.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

Is that a North West thing? In Milton Keynes I have rarely had issues, only ones have been overtired drivers who have done the nights first rather than not showing up at all.

Neil

May well be, I've tried to book a taxi at midnight for 5am the same morning to be told "ring before you want to travel, we can't guarantee that."

 

[455driver]

Course it is, silly, we can take blocks anytime we like with no notice and with the operators always agreeing.

No need for that, just take blocks in between trains!

 

[anme]

Is that a North West thing? In Milton Keynes I have rarely had issues, only ones have been overtired drivers who have done the nights first rather than not showing up at all.

Neil

It wasn't in the north west.

At least the excuses were entertaining if the taxi did eventually show up. It was amazing how sat nav systems "couldn't find the address" despite it being on a main road and opposite a well known local landmark (which I always mentioned when booking and when calling because the taxi hadn't turned up), and how it would often take 20+ minutes for a car to get from the taxi office to my front door, a distance I could walk in little more than five minutes.

 

[causton]

It wasn't in the north west.

At least the excuses were entertaining if the taxi did eventually show up. It was amazing how sat nav systems "couldn't find the address" despite it being on a main road and opposite a well known local landmark (which I always mentioned when booking and when calling because the taxi hadn't turned up), and how it would often take 20+ minutes for a car to get from the taxi office to my front door, a distance I could walk in little more than five minutes.

Personally I would walk to the taxi office and wave at them going "I'm here!"

 

[anme]

Personally I would walk to the taxi office and wave at them going "I'm here!"

At 4am, once I'd been told the car had left the office, there didn't seem much point in walking there!

Anyway we're getting a bit off topic now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't in the north west.

At least the excuses were entertaining if the taxi did eventually show up. It was amazing how sat nav systems "couldn't find the address" despite it being on a main road and opposite a well known local landmark (which I always mentioned when booking and when calling because the taxi hadn't turned up), and how it would often take 20+ minutes for a car to get from the taxi office to my front door, a distance I could walk in little more than five minutes.

I have that issue and give another nearby house instead of mine (road access to mine is via a road not featuring in my postal address, which is a public footpath not a road). This also has the security benefit that they don't know which house is going to be empty because I'm off to the airport.

As for a car from the taxi office - whyever would it be there? Most likely it'll be either out on another job or at the driver's home.

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Edinburgh and Glasgow are also woefully served past midnight, can you include them as Northern cities despite being in Scotland?

It is absurd that the politican's dream of a combined city of Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the ordinary citizen's wish to travel after normal evening activities. that the last train in either direction between those cities leaves at 23:30.

Fortunately for us all, no Scots person would ever consider driving a car after drinking alcoholic refreshment and so when there are no trains, they would always choose stay at home with a good book and mug of cocoa rather than spend time with friends or attendng any social or cultural activity. Otherwise, the roads at night would be hazardous (which of course, is exactly what occurs every weekend).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do Citylink operate a night service?

Neil

 

[ryan125hst]

I've been on the overnight TPE services on a Friday and Saturday... other than out of use toilets the train seemed fine.

That doesn't sound like fine to me! What time train was this? Many station toilets will be locked in the early hours as the station staff will have gone home at the smaller stations, and I think even larger stations tend to lock toilets late at night, don't they? It would put me off travelling late at night/early hours of the morning if this is the norm.

Were they locked out because the CET tank was full? If so, would they still have been able to arrange a toilet stop at a large station for passengers who needed it? It would make for a very unpleasant start to a holiday being desperate for the toilet and it being OOU!

 

[IanXC]

That doesn't sound like fine to me! What time train was this? Many station toilets will be locked in the early hours as the station staff will have gone home at the smaller stations, and I think even larger stations tend to lock toilets late at night, don't they? It would put me off travelling late at night/early hours of the morning if this is the norm.

Were they locked out because the CET tank was full? If so, would they still have been able to arrange a toilet stop at a large station for passengers who needed it? It would make for a very unpleasant start to a holiday being desperate for the toilet and it being OOU!

This is services through the night - those operating 00:00-06:00. On only 1 occasion was there no toilet available on the train.

Once you get to these hours TP call York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport - nothing any smaller. These stations are generally barriered/controlled access at these hours, so as far as I've seen toilets are available.

 

[Mark62]

There is a late train back from Manchester to Sheffield, but services that used to run through the night in both directions got cancelled. But surely it's not just about having services too and from the airport. There aren't any late night services to London from Sheffield, Leeds! newcastle! Doncaster etc etc. there aren't any cross country late night services. There used to be an excellent network of late night services in the North. And don't tell me that these services weren't well used, because I know that they were.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Better, later services would be nice, but even more important would be Sunday services that reflect that it's no longer 1955...

Yes, I know that engineering works and servicing needs many of the weekends free, but a bit more slack in the fleets (as stock is replaced and cascaded) would solve that.