Italian trains and journey

[leejayd]

My other half booked us on a trip to Italy (Como - up north).

When I found out the transport from the airport (Milan) was eu120 each way I quickly considered the train.

Lucky for us there was a train station at the airport heading into Milan. We had to switch to get a regional train to Como but I was very impressed with the whole experience.

The trains were amazing - comfy seats, clean, double decker.

Even the regional train was good quality.

On top of this it only cost eu12.

Arriving back in the UK and getting on a pacer brought me back to earth.

Considering the economic plight of Italy throughout the past decade the economic argument often used in the UK to justify Pacers doesn't stand up IMOH.

 

[me123]

Try the Circumvesuviana if you're ever near Napoli. Closest I've come to feeling like third world trains. Dirty, old fashioned, slow, busy, beggars... (and supposedly pickpockets, although I certainly wasn't aware of any and left with all my valuables in their right place).

Clicky
Clicky again

(None of these are mine!, All found on Google)

From a technical perspective, there's lots of single track lines but a relatively frequent service was operating, and I found delays would build up quite easily. Not much scope to recover service when things go wrong.

It's certainly an experience though and you really should give it a go. On the plus side, the price was really good in what is normally a very expensive part of Italy, and you get to see areas off the beaten track (although you'll quickly find that there's a reason that these particular areas are off the beaten track).

There's good and bad everywhere. I've also been on the Leonardo Express near Roma. Outward journey on the dedicated stock was good. The return journey on a non-airconditioned train (in August, about 35C outside) was much less fun! From my limited experience of Italian railways, they are quite variable in quality. The Intercity trains are meant to be really good (haven't had the fortune to try one yet), but the local trains can be pretty hit-or-miss, and certainly the stock I've seen is generally a lot older than stuff here in the UK.

 

[Springs Branch]

Interesting to read your positive impression of train travel around Milan.

For your trip to Como did you use the route from Milan to Como S.Giovanni (which continues on to Switzerland), or the local line from Milano Cadorna - Como Nord/ Lago?

A number of years ago, I lived in Varese (north of Milan & west of Como) and remember ancient brown-painted EMUs with wooden slatted seats on some trains on the suburban FNM lines back then.
I wondered if the comfy seats, clean, double decker trains to Como were on the Nord lines. Good if they've improved.

I know there's been a lot of improvements to the suburban & regional system around Milan in recent years, with some local trains running through to Lugano & Bellinzona in Switzerland (so they must be good!) and a new Crossrail/RER-type line beneath central Milan.
And that's not even mentioning the billons spent on the new high speed routes and the Frecce trains (TGV/ICE-style) which run on them. HS2 has already happened in Italy.

 

[AM9]

Had a week on Lake Como four weeks ago. Great place, travel excellent but (that week) weather pretty dull. Traverlled on Malpensa Express from the airport to Saronno. That was fine Articulated train, fairly quiet and fast. Owing to Italy's low platforms, they are a bit of a nightmare with cases going up and down steps when the luggage bays are full. Fare was 9 Euro.

From there, went on a double deck local 3-car EMU to Como Nord Lago. Quite comfortable, a bit spartan and PVC covered seats. Once again, a bit of a pain with cases. fare was 7 Euro.

Whilst there, I took a trip from Varenna to Tirano. This was on a loco hauled train about 8 coaches each with 6 pairs of sliding doors. Fare for an amazing journey was 7 Euros!

Can't find a picture but I think it was a 464 loco in push-pull and a driving trailer at the other end.

Hope to go back soon.

 

[Greenback]

Naturally, there is a variation in quality across the FS network, just as there is here.

Italian trains today are vastly different to the ones I used back in the 1980's. A journey from Como (the station by the lake, not San Giovanni) to Milan was excellent in spotless double decker trains with a very good ride quality. A trip to Varenna, although a secondary route used stock that I recognised as being used (or at least very similar to) on front line IC services from Rome to Turin in 1986.

As for the Frecciabianca and Frecciarossa trains, I find them to be vastly better than modern UK trains, though I think much of this is due to the more generous loading gauge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By contrast, a journey from Milan to Domodossola in September produced some incredibly nasty old rolling stock with condensation-full windows and covered in graffiti outside. It's not hard not to let your stock get into that state, but they seem to have managed it.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps it's a bit like taking a Pacer journey in the north after a Pendolino!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps it's a bit like taking a Pacer journey in the north after a Pendolino!

At least these days most of the muck gets cleaned off! But I do remember how homely the Merseyrail 50xs felt (even in their original state) compared with a Preston-Ormskirk Pacer.

Neil

 

[eastwestdivide]

...
Whilst there, I took a trip from Varenna to Tirano. This was on a loco hauled train about 8 coaches each with 6 pairs of sliding doors. Fare for an amazing journey was 7 Euros!

Can't find a picture but I think it was a 464 loco in push-pull and a driving trailer at the other end.
...

I went there earlier this year:
Milan-Tirano trains - yes, loco and many coaches, possibly one of those single-ended locos common around the Trenord area. And agreed, an excellent journey along the lake side (think Dawlish-Teignmouth, but with lake and mountains substituted for sea and red cliffs).
Similar setup (push-pull, loco one end) on the Chiasso-Como-Milan locals, but worse coaches than the Tirano ones, with a low floor section in the centre and high sections at each end, pretty bad for graffiti, and not very well ventilated.

A few photos on my blog on that other forum here

 

[AM9]

One thing that fascinated me was on single track stations, like the Lecco-Colico run up the east side of Lake Como, most of the stations have one and a half platforms. The main one, usually the 'up' to Milan is a full platform with waiting room and booking hall etc., the other is reached by crossing the up track, the down platform face being the far side of a low platform about four feet wide. Although infrequent, if the service was for up and down trains to use the station as a passing loop, passengers would be standing on this thin raised strip. Accordingly, yellow lines have been painted about 12 inches in from each face of this platform leaving about 2ft to stand in. Rucksacks would need to be removed and placed on the ground and waiting passengers to stand to attention!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That arrangement is common in Germany as well, known as "Hausbahnsteig" and "Nebenbahnsteig"/"Zwischenbahnsteig", though DB are progressively replacing it with a safer layout.

Typically you don't cross to the Nebenbahnsteig until the Hausbahnsteig has a train in it.

Neil

 

[AM9]

That arrangement is common in Germany as well, known as "Hausbahnsteig" and "Nebenbahnsteig"/"Zwischenbahnsteig", though DB are progressively replacing it with a safer layout.

Typically you don't cross to the Nebenbahnsteig until the Hausbahnsteig has a train in it.

Neil

So what are the yellow lines for?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly Italy is less regulated in how they are worked.

Neil

 

[davetheguard]

By contrast, a journey from Milan to Domodossola in September produced some incredibly nasty old rolling stock with condensation-full windows and covered in graffiti outside. It's not hard not to let your stock get into that state, but they seem to have managed it.

Neil

This was also the case on local train from Lucca to Pisa that I caught in October 2012. And it wasn't much better on the inside........

I guess, like everywhere, there's good and bad.

 

[Springs Branch]

Took the unusual step of showing this thread & photos to 'Er Indoors (or I should say Lei In Casa, as my wife is Italian).

Her angry reaction was "there you go, the North gets all the nice trains and the South gets the old junk, full of graffiti" (accompanied by waving of hands in true Neopolitan style)

But I don't think it's that simple anymore in Italy.

As has been mentioned, there are plenty of scruffy graffiti-ridden old trains to be found in Lombardy if you're unlucky.
In the South of Italy, obviously there are still operations like Circumvesuviana, but I understand some of the very marginal, rural branch lines have been significantly improved by EU funding - refurbished stations and new trains, which still run almost empty, despite rock-bottom fares, since they go from Nowhere to Nowhere via Nowhere Junction. For example Ferrovie SudEst in the heel of Italy.

So maybe here's a strategy to replace Pacers on Northern Rail and the Welsh Valleys - ask the EU for grants to improve rail services in disadvantaged regions of UK.

The Germans, French, Dutch etc won't object too much, because ultimately their railways end up operating the new trains (after their manufacturing companies have built them).

 

[Oscar]

Interesting to read your positive impression of train travel around Milan.

For your trip to Como did you use the route from Milan to Como S.Giovanni (which continues on to Switzerland), or the local line from Milano Cadorna - Como Nord/ Lago?

A number of years ago, I lived in Varese (north of Milan & west of Como) and remember ancient brown-painted EMUs with wooden slatted seats on some trains on the suburban FNM lines back then.
I wondered if the comfy seats, clean, double decker trains to Como were on the Nord lines. Good if they've improved.

I know there's been a lot of improvements to the suburban & regional system around Milan in recent years, with some local trains running through to Lugano & Bellinzona in Switzerland (so they must be good!) and a new Crossrail/RER-type line beneath central Milan.
And that's not even mentioning the billons spent on the new high speed routes and the Frecce trains (TGV/ICE-style) which run on them. HS2 has already happened in Italy.

The ancient brown-painted EMUs were still running a lot of Como services in 2013. The rolling stock pictured by AM9 runs all or virtually all of the services on the Passante (S-Bahn tunnel) and a lot of the services out of Cadorna.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My other half booked us on a trip to Italy (Como - up north).

When I found out the transport from the airport (Milan) was eu120 each way I quickly considered the train.

Lucky for us there was a train station at the airport heading into Milan. We had to switch to get a regional train to Como but I was very impressed with the whole experience.

The trains were amazing - comfy seats, clean, double decker.

Even the regional train was good quality.

On top of this it only cost eu12.

Arriving back in the UK and getting on a pacer brought me back to earth.

Considering the economic plight of Italy throughout the past decade the economic argument often used in the UK to justify Pacers doesn't stand up IMOH.

From Malpensa to Como certainly the shortest and cheapest route would be to change at Saronno, though going via Milano C might be equally quick depending on connections.

 

[AM9]

Took the unusual step of showing this thread & photos to 'Er Indoors (or I should say Lei In Casa, as my wife is Italian).

Her angry reaction was "there you go, the North gets all the nice trains and the South gets the old junk, full of graffiti" (accompanied by waving of hands in true Neopolitan style)

But I don't think it's that simple anymore in Italy.

As has been mentioned, there are plenty of scruffy graffiti-ridden old trains to be found in Lombardy if you're unlucky.
In the South of Italy, obviously there are still operations like Circumvesuviana, but I understand some of the very marginal, rural branch lines have been significantly improved by EU funding - refurbished stations and new trains, which still run almost empty, despite rock-bottom fares, since they go from Nowhere to Nowhere via Nowhere Junction. For example Ferrovie SudEst in the heel of Italy.

So maybe here's a strategy to replace Pacers on Northern Rail and the Welsh Valleys - ask the EU for grants to improve rail services in disadvantaged regions of UK.

The Germans, French, Dutch etc won't object too much, because ultimately their railways end up operating the new trains (after their manufacturing companies have built them).

Ah but the Europhobes are doing everything to make sure that we lose all the benefits of membership! We'll end up with lines run with 'heritage' liveried pacers.

 

[Oscar]

Yes, it's quite common to find secondary routes in Italy which stop a long way from the centres of settlements or serve areas of very low population density. I think some should probably be closed, others could probably perform acceptably with timetable and fare integration with buses and in some cases a major timetable overhaul. That would be very difficult in Italy though, where buses and trains subsidised by the same regional authority often compete on routes with limited demand.