Could/should there be more night services in the North?

[Merseysider]

As it stands, there is a 3 hour gap between Manchester and the Airport, from about 0045 - 0345. Fine if you're happy to shell out for a taxi, or spend an hour on the bus, not so fine otherwise.

There is also a 3 hour gap between Leeds and Manchester, from 2335 to 0220, although Leeds does have an hourly service after half two.

While I'll admit there isn't much demand for a Newcastle - Manchester service past 10pm, I do believe more local cities such as Liverpool should get more than just one night service, with a 6 hour gap from Manchester to Liverpool. Surely there's room for more? (Yes, okay, they might be used primarily by p***heads on a night out but that's not the point).

Don't even get me started on how poorly Sheffield is connected after hours.

And would the demand be there for an early morning Merseyrail service between Liverpool and Chester?

 

[Howardh]

Flights at the airport start about 6am, so anyone flying needs to be there 4-ish, so the one train available on the Blackpool/Manchester/Airport stretch gets to the airport around 5.10, no use at all.
Think we need a couple of regular trains - (a) 2.30am Blackpool-Preston-Wigan-Bolton-Picc arriving around 4 and (b) the same from Leeds.
The trains would run mostly empty (but the train I was on mentioned above had a healthy number on) so if it collects night-clubbers - with tickets - that's useful revenue that isn't going to the taxis/buses.
It would also be used by people wishing to save on a huge taxi bill by simply getting a taxi to the nearest station (ie. from Lancaster to Preston).
This area does need consideration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flights at the airport start about 6am, so anyone flying needs to be there 4-ish, so the one train available on the Blackpool/Manchester/Airport stretch gets to the airport around 5.10, no use at all.
Think we need a couple of regular trains - (a) 2.30am Blackpool-Preston-Wigan-Bolton-Picc arriving around 4 and (b) the same from Leeds.
The trains would run mostly empty (but the train I was on mentioned above had a healthy number on) so if it collects night-clubbers - with tickets - that's useful revenue that isn't going to the taxis/buses.
It would also be used by people wishing to save on a huge taxi bill by simply getting a taxi to the nearest station (ie. from Lancaster to Preston).
This area does need consideration.

There used to be an about-0130 and about-0330 Blackpool-Preston-Picc (I think that was all it did). They weren't popular, mainly only used by staff.

Nightclubber traffic...well, I imagine any profit would be wiped out by needing to take the unit out of morning peak service to clean up the sick.

Neil
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It would also be used by people wishing to save on a huge taxi bill by simply getting a taxi to the nearest station (ie. from Lancaster to Preston).
This area does need consideration.

Private hire firms offer very good deals on airport runs, usually far cheaper than the normal rate, and definitely affordable if you/your company can afford a foreign holiday/business trip. And with a taxi, you get longer in bed before your stupid o'clock flight.

There is a limited Nat Ex service down the M1 from MK Coachway to Luton Airport overnight which I could use. I never have and probably never will.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

Flights at the airport start about 6am, so anyone flying needs to be there 4-ish, so the one train available on the Blackpool/Manchester/Airport stretch gets to the airport around 5.10, no use at all.
Think we need a couple of regular trains - (a) 2.30am Blackpool-Preston-Wigan-Bolton-Picc arriving around 4 and (b) the same from Leeds.
The trains would run mostly empty (but the train I was on mentioned above had a healthy number on) so if it collects night-clubbers - with tickets - that's useful revenue that isn't going to the taxis/buses.
It would also be used by people wishing to save on a huge taxi bill by simply getting a taxi to the nearest station (ie. from Lancaster to Preston).
This area does need consideration.

Completely agree - missed out the Wigan stretch! The one night service each way between Blackpool and Manchester (Airport) isn't something to encourage commute between the two (I used to work a 0400 - 1200 shift). In comparison down South, there's 3 an hour all night between London and Gatwick Airport.

Edinburgh and Glasgow are also woefully served past midnight, can you include them as Northern cities despite being in Scotland?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

to clean up the sick...

Private hire firms offer very good deals on airport runs, usually far cheaper than the normal rate, and definitely affordable if you/your company can afford a foreign holiday/business trip. And with a taxi, you get longer in bed before your stupid o'clock flight.

There is a limited Nat Ex service down the M1 from MK Coachway to Luton Airport overnight which I could use. I never have and probably never will.

Neil

You make good points. From personal experience, I have an aversion to taking the taxi wherever possible and a few others I know also do. The coach is an option when there are no services by rail, but who wants to spend twice as long on a coach that may well have no functioning toilet?!

 

[bb21]

What is wrong with nightbuses?

London airports are not served by trains overnight (except Gatwick and Luton).

 

[Merseysider]

What is wrong with nightbuses?

London airports are not served by trains overnight (except Gatwick and Luton).

Night buses in Manchester consist largely of Stagecoach's unwanted fleet of 'magic' buses (the ones that have dirt-cheap fares because they're so uncomfortable to use). I can't speak for elsewhere however.

Manchester is sometimes polled as England's 'second capital' but what kind of capital city has such dreadful night services to its only airport?

The Northern Hub project aims to increase economic growth in our half of the country by making travel by rail more attractive but in my opinion, to truly compete with the South we need round the clock connectivity, not just when the services will be most used. But then I suppose it boils down to "who's paying?"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester is sometimes polled as England's 'second capital' but what kind of capital city has such dreadful night services to its only airport?

Most probably due to certain people on this website and their evil magic spells who also want to see the daily DIRECT rail service to Manchester Airport dramatically cut back also having a similar wish concerning that wish to which you allude above...

Given half the chance, they would dearly like to see the removal of the second runway there to ensure the end of any airport expansion and the dropping of the HS2 Manchester Airport railway station proposals.

 

[bb21]

Night buses in Manchester consist largely of Stagecoach's unwanted fleet of 'magic' buses (the ones that have dirt-cheap fares because they're so uncomfortable to use). I can't speak for elsewhere however.

Manchester is sometimes polled as England's 'second capital' but what kind of capital city has such dreadful night services to its only airport?

The Northern Hub project aims to increase economic growth in our half of the country by making travel by rail more attractive but in my opinion, to truly compete with the South we need round the clock connectivity, not just when the services will be most used. But then I suppose it boils down to "who's paying?"

Given the night curfew at the airport I think a nightbus service should be sufficient. There may be an argument for Stagecoach to improve the vehicles used on the route and possibly improve the frequency, perhaps to half-hourly, but is a rail service really necessary?

There may also be an argument for there to be an earlier start to the TPE services to enable people to arrive in time for early flight check-in's, but who are the overnight services supposed to serve, and can they not be adequately catered for by an improved bus service?

 

[anme]

Private hire firms offer very good deals on airport runs, usually far cheaper than the normal rate, and definitely affordable if you/your company can afford a foreign holiday/business trip. And with a taxi, you get longer in bed before your stupid o'clock flight.

That's not necessarily true. There are early morning trips to airports that are certainly quicker by train than by car. Depends on your specific circumstances.

For me, the other big advantage of rail is reliability. Trains may not be perfect, but I've been let down by early morning trains much less often than by early morning taxis.

 

[yorksrob]

Why is this thread obsessed about the airport route ? It already has a night time service. Something needs to be done about the ordinary local services which finish stupidly early (before 23:00 in many cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Night buses in Manchester consist largely of Stagecoach's unwanted fleet of 'magic' buses (the ones that have dirt-cheap fares because they're so uncomfortable to use).

You know that the present Magic Bus fleet come from none other than Stagecoach's normal services a few years ago? They haven't been modified to reduce comfort or anything silly like that.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most probably due to certain people on this website and their evil magic spells who also want to see the daily DIRECT rail service to Manchester Airport dramatically cut back also having a similar wish concerning that wish to which you allude above...

I hardly think cutting back from 9 to 6tph is all that dramatic. From an excessive service to a still excellent one.

Given half the chance, they would dearly like to see the removal of the second runway there to ensure the end of any airport expansion and the dropping of the HS2 Manchester Airport railway station proposals.

As the only purpose for reducing the airport service as I propose on the other thread is to release DMUs for strengthening of seriously overcrowded TPE and Northern services, I hardly see why any of that has any relevance.

Neil
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That's not necessarily true. There are early morning trips to airports that are certainly quicker by train than by car. Depends on your specific circumstances.

You live near Paddington and are going to Heathrow? Or near a Thameslink station and going to Gatwick? Or at Piccadilly, Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley or Heald Green and going to Manchester Airport?

I doubt there are all that many others - the walk to the station is often the killer time-wise if you're talking crack of dawn flights as I was. You don't get much traffic anywhere heading to an airport for 5am.

Neil

 

[DarloRich]

And when shall the track be fixed?

 

[Greenback]

Why is this thread obsessed about the airport route ? It already has a night time service. Something needs to be done about the ordinary local services which finish stupidly early (before 23:00 in many cases.

Fair point. But I'd say it will be difficult to run later trains because of maintenance, additional staff being required, the threat of anti social behaviour, the fact that the services won't be profitable, and, at the bottom line, the cost.

That's not to say I don't want better and later services in the north or anywhere else, but these are the objections that will be put up.

None of the objections are insurmountable, but the one thing they all have in common is that they cost money. And, as always, it's all about who will pay for these things.

 

[northwichcat]

The stupid thing is with Manchester airport services is that places like Huddersfield, Leeds, Sheffield and Preston get an overnight service. Yet many people who live within a commutable distance of the Airport can't get there using public transport before around 07:30. Commuters could of course use a service 5 days a week, whereas holiday makers only use it a limited number of times a year.

 

[Howardh]

The situation is barmy right now.
There are night buses from Central Manchester to the Airport, great if you live close to central Mancheser, millions in the NW do not. Greater Manchester is served by night buses up to 3pm-ish; but mainly Friday/Saturday nights only.

One option will be the new tram, but again if they ran a Centre-Airport very early morning service - you still are back to point one.

I don't blame the trains necessarily; there is the option to run coaches from surrounding towns to the airport (National Express??) but it doesn't happen.

£10 single Bolton - Airport? Better than a £30 taxi if there's only one of you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

£10 single Bolton - Airport? Better than a £30 taxi if there's only one of you!

If I'm already getting 4 hours' sleep, it's worth 20 quid on top of a trip that's already going to be expensive for another half hour to an hour in bed.

Neil

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The travel from Manchester Airport is more important to othet citied lik Sheffield, Huddersfield, York, Grimsby, Liverpool and many many others. People from those areas use the airport too and Mancunians can get a bus or taxi if they need to.

 

[jamesst]

As it stands, there is a 3 hour gap between Manchester and the Airport, from about 0045 - 0345. Fine if you're happy to shell out for a taxi, or spend an hour on the bus, not so fine otherwise.

There is also a 3 hour gap between Leeds and Manchester, from 2335 to 0220, although Leeds does have an hourly service after half two.

While I'll admit there isn't much demand for a Newcastle - Manchester service past 10pm, I do believe more local cities such as Liverpool should get more than just one night service, with a 6 hour gap from Manchester to Liverpool. Surely there's room for more? (Yes, okay, they might be used primarily by p***heads on a night out but that's not the point).

Don't even get me started on how poorly Sheffield is connected after hours.

And would the demand be there for an early morning Merseyrail service between Liverpool and Chester?

The Chester line on Merseyrail already has the earliest start from Liverpool at 0536. Any earlier and you'll start interfering with the nighttime loop maintenance. And there's a lot of it that needs to be done in those tunnels!

 

[northwichcat]

The travel from Manchester Airport is more important to othet citied lik Sheffield, Huddersfield, York, Grimsby, Liverpool and many many others. People from those areas use the airport too and Mancunians can get a bus or taxi if they need to.

So it's more important to have passengers from Yorkshire and Humberside at Manchester Airport than to have staff at Manchester Airport? Not everywhere within a commutable distance of the Airport has a direct bus to the Airport, from some places you need to use a combination of buses, trains and/or trams and any job requiring a pre-07:30 start is ruled out unless you own a car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it's more important to have passengers from Yorkshire and Humberside at Manchester Airport than to have staff at Manchester Airport? Not everywhere within a commutable distance of the Airport has a direct bus to the Airport, from some places you need to use a combination of buses, trains and/or trams and any job requiring a pre-07:30 start is ruled out unless you own a car.

Or bicycle. Some people commute quite some distance by this means.

Neil

 

[NSE]

Not every night time clubber is sick on trains. Yes don't get me wrong, I've witnessed it, and I've witnessed chips and ketchup being spilled etc. But I've gone 'out' and returned on night time public transport (be it night buses, last trains/tubes) and I've never been sick. I highly doubt every single night train will need to be taken out of service in the morning to clear up sick.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

So it's more important to have passengers from Yorkshire and Humberside at Manchester Airport than to have staff at Manchester Airport? Not everywhere within a commutable distance of the Airport has a direct bus to the Airport, from some places you need to use a combination of buses, trains and/or trams and any job requiring a pre-07:30 start is ruled out unless you own a car.

I completely forgot about the staff. I know metrolink has been extended there. Does anyone know what times the 'trams' will be run at night?

 

[northwichcat]

Or bicycle. Some people commute quite some distance by this means.

Neil

While I accept there's a bike friendly route between some places and the Airport, getting between some places and the Airport by bike would require you to cycle on a dual carriageway with no cycle line and cars whizzing along at 70mph.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I completely forgot about the staff. I know metrolink has been extended there. Does anyone know what times the 'trams' will be run at night?

At the moment the first tram will be later than the first bus. Someone in Wythenshawe can get an Arriva bus to the Airport at 04:34, while the first Airport bound tram leaves Cornbrook (near the city centre) at 05:50. Problem is though it's accepted not everyone in Wythenshawe has a car for getting to work but the same doesn't apply to the better off areas.

 

[Greenback]

Should we change the thread title to refer only to Manchester Airport rather than Northern services?

 

[Merseysider]

Should we change the thread title to refer only to Manchester Airport rather than Northern services?

I did mention Sheffield and Chester in the OP, but the majority of conversation seems to be focused on journeys to Man Airport. Although thinking about it, most night services (eg between York and Leeds) continue on to Man Airport anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

I did mention Sheffield and Chester in the OP, but the majority of conversation seems to be focused on journeys to Man Airport. Although thinking about it, most night services (eg between York and Leeds) continue on to Man Airport anyway.

When I started a thread about potential improvements I mentioned the Buxton line in the opening post and the thread got to 5 pages long before anyone else mentioned the Buxton line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I accept there's a bike friendly route between some places and the Airport, getting between some places and the Airport by bike would require you to cycle on a dual carriageway with no cycle line and cars whizzing along at 70mph.

<looks at map>

Nope, there are plenty of non-dualled alternatives.

Neil

 

[Tony2215]

Being the UKs 3rd busiest airport (and growing) im surprised there is NOTHING from the south that serves this airport apart from the Crewe stopper when Stoke-on-Trent/Staffordshire and Midlands would benefit from a direct service.

As for night services one observation I have made is that why there is the need to run four services all within minutes of each other at around 04:30 from Piccadilly. Even on a Saturday morning two of the trains leave at the exact same time 04:49.

 

[Deerfold]

What is wrong with nightbuses?

London airports are not served by trains overnight (except Gatwick and Luton).

Nightbuses would be great. There's one in West Yorkshire serving the highest density area of student population in Leeds.

If I had a nightbus or night train I'd certainly go out in Leeds more often than I do with a £60 quid taxi fare home.

 

[Howardh]

The arguments against are - would there be sufficient passengers to make the services worthwhile, and when would engineering work take place on the 24-hr lines.

The second one is obvious, any time they like, just use replacement buses (as they do on the 0016 Picc - Bolton Sunday am service - when was that last a train)?

But the former question depends on whether the workforce who use cars (and Neil William's bicycles..mustn't forget those) would park up at their appropriate station and travel from there and how much the public would use them to and from the airport.

That would require publicity and maybe airlines who operate late-night/early morning flights could add-on/link to the rail ticketing sites suggesting there may well be a train available should they fly from Manchester. In fact, it may mean passengers choose a particular airline over another if they can get to the airport by train for 4am. Would with me and I bet many catching the 0600 to Ibiza would like the train option too.

After all there are enough add-ons to trawl through when booking a flight (do you want car hire? Extra bags? Insurance??) so one added useful one would be harmless. Maybe a discount if you book through the airline?