Northern Rail crew shortages.

[ComUtoR]

Sunday is not a 'special day' in retail as regards the staff. The restricted opening hours were agreed after pressure from religious organisations. Even then you could argue that neither Jews or Muslims see Sunday as special

I worked in retail for many years before what I do now and Sunday is treated different. In fact, the whole staffing arrangements across the retail sector is far removed from the railways. A basis for comparison is pointless.

If you choose to work in an industry that is a seven day one, you should accept you will have to work at weekends.

I would agree and if you join ANY industry you should be expected to work under the existing terms and conditions of employment. I expect no less from a railway employee. If there was a sunday rate arrangement and reduced opening hours etc. then that forms part of my decision to join that company/sector. Sunday arrangements have been in place since those people have joined and any changes to their working conditions must be renegotiated but you have to support peoples rights. Yes the industry is changing and we can argue the benefits of those changes all day long.

how would you feel if you became seriously ill on a Sunday and were told the nearest hospital was closed because staff had decided they didn't want to work?

That is a fallacious and ignorant answer. If you want to make the point of hospitals and opening hours then you have to also consider that hospitals are also staffed differently on a sunday. You can easily look up the various reports that suggest that various days have higher death rates due to such staffing arrangements and that certain times of the year (Jn Dr's) make fatal mistakes due to lack of experience. You can also add that hospital waiting times may be due to the fact that surgery is scheduled during the week as consultants don't work weekends...

In my employment history I have worked Shifts, Zero Hrs, Salary, Hourly, Part time, Temp and the ubiquitous saturday job. All had different working conditions. The country doesn't have a 24/7 culture and as each sector juxtaposes against each other we very much have to accept that each will be different.

I have many issues with Sunday trading hours, licensing laws, Bank holidays, Delivery times and yes, train schedules but that is the country we choose to live in.

 

[LateThanNever]

That is a fallacious and ignorant answer. If you want to make the point of hospitals and opening hours then you have to also consider that hospitals are also staffed differently on a sunday. You can easily look up the various reports that suggest that various days have higher death rates due to such staffing arrangements and that certain times of the year (Jn Dr's) make fatal mistakes due to lack of experience. You can also add that hospital waiting times may be due to the fact that surgery is scheduled during the week as consultants don't work weekends...

I think a little less of the 'ignorance'.
A minority of hospitals already work a seven day week -Salford Royal is the best known. And it is on record that seven day working will come throughout the NHS.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think a little less of the 'ignorance'.
A minority of hospitals already work a seven day week -Salford Royal is the best known. And it is on record that seven day working will come throughout the NHS.

Its the argument that comparing hospitals to the railway and using someone getting seriously ill on a sunday is 100% an ignorant comparison. NOT (and i stress NOT) ignorance about our beloved and much maligned NHS and its superb staff (especially nurses)

Without getting too far off topic. The NHS is also undergoing change with a shakeup of working practices. As I alluded to earlier, those staff affected came into the sector with existing T&C's and that should be respected.

I have a few friends who work for the NHS so I am well aware of how those in the NHS are feeling currently.

My apologies if you took any offense.

 

[whoosh]

how would you feel if you became seriously ill on a Sunday and were told the nearest hospital was closed because staff had decided they didn't want to work?

Pretty annoyed.

However, a hospital will look at how many hours Monday to Sunday are required to be worked, then divide it by a full-time employees' hours, and that's how many staff they need.


Many TOCs though, will look at how many hours are required to be worked Monday to Saturday, then divide it by a full-time employees' hours, and that how many staff they need, apart from Sundays. Sundays, they'll look at how many turns of duty there are on Sundays, and go "That's how many people we need to rely on to work overtime for an extra day, or we won't be running any trains."


Good old weekends eh? http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/03/hospital-patients-risk-weekends

 

[455driver]

All this talk of comparing the railways with the NHS has got me thinking, what if I want to see my GP on a weekend?

They don't seem to work very many (if any) Sundays!

 

[driver_m]

This is a question for those people who think we should just hand over our Sunday working conditions without question.

Would you be happy to suddenly start working an average of 35 Sundays a year if you had previously done 26 a year for no extra money? Also, how about if you did none previously? Finally, its now difficult to get the Sunday off, whereas previously it was no problem as someone always wanted your overtime. Would you hand it over without question? Don't forget that at least 40% of my hard earned sunday overtime is going to those nurses you keep mentioning. (amongst many other things)

 

[LateThanNever]

All this talk of comparing the railways with the NHS has got me thinking, what if I want to see my GP on a weekend?

They don't seem to work very many (if any Sundays)!

Probably to travel on a Sunday is a misfortune, to fall ill on a Sunday looks like carelessness....

 

[mafeu]

On the subject of retail workers and Sundays, legally a retail worker can actually opt-out of working a Sunday by giving written notice. The caveat being unless you were recruited to work Sundays. One might also not want to ruffle feathers if they don't have full employment rights, however.

Somewhat off topic but it does give contrast.

Personally, whilst I enjoy a Sunday off, I think we need to keep with the times and treat it as any other day.

 

[dk1]

All this talk of comparing the railways with the NHS has got me thinking, what if I want to see my GP on a weekend?

They don't seem to work very many (if any Sundays)!

I like that

 

[Jamesb1974]

Can i jump on the bandwagon?

I sometimes use aeroplanes as a customer and the pilot earns far more money than I do. I'm not qualified to do his/her job, yet I feel that as I've paid my money I should have a say in his/her salary structure.

I also like to watch football. I've got two left feet and break out in a rash at the thought of physical exertion, yet because I am a consumer of the spectacle, I find it grossly unfair that Premier League footballers live in houses bigger than mine and drive better cars than me. I want what they have, despite not being qualified to clean their boots.

I also like to watch motor sports and it irks me massively that the top drivers live in Monaco, have watches that are worth more than my house and yachts so big they need a 50 man crew. I failed my driving test 4 times and get scared when I go above 30 mph, but I want the lifestyle of a racing driver.

I'm pay my money to experience all the above, yet I can't have the rewards.

It's just not fair...

Why is life so horrible? All these awful people doing other jobs and earning more money than I do.

F*@/$^! pathetic

 

[455driver]

JamesB, that is a brilliant post, I salute you!
After a sh-t day at work you brought a genuine smile to my face, I thank you for that!

 

[Hellfire]

Can i jump on the bandwagon?

I sometimes use aeroplanes as a customer and the pilot earns far more money than I do. I'm not qualified to do his/her job, yet I feel that as I've paid my money I should have a say in his/her salary structure.

I also like to watch football. I've got two left feet and break out in a rash at the thought of physical exertion, yet because I am a consumer of the spectacle, I find it grossly unfair that Premier League footballers live in houses bigger than mine and drive better cars than me. I want what they have, despite not being qualified to clean their boots.

I also like to watch motor sports and it irks me massively that the top drivers live in Monaco, have watches that are worth more than my house and yachts so big they need a 50 man crew. I failed my driving test 4 times and get scared when I go above 30 mph, but I want the lifestyle of a racing driver.

I'm pay my money to experience all the above, yet I can't have the rewards.

It's just not fair...

Why is life so horrible? All these awful people doing other jobs and earning more money than I do.

F*@/$^! pathetic

As this debate is about providing an efficient seven day service, and nothing whatsoever to do with who earns what, this post is somewhat irrelevant.

 

[Emyr]

As this debate is about providing an efficient seven day service, and nothing whatsoever to do with who earns what, this post is somewhat irrelevant.

It is a rebuttal to the "we pay your wages" anti-unionism brigade.

Bravo.

 

[Wolfie]

Agree with all this. But the real fault seems to me to lie with the management. What could be easier to say you want the terms of your staff to be made the same throughout the company? But they don't want a fight when they've only got 2 years (or whatever it is) to make any money and then it will be somebody else's problem. The wonderful franchise system strikes again (as it were).

The problem is that when management want to harmonise terms they always aim for the lowest common denominator. Strange old thing, the TUs want to harmonise on the best bits....

Compromise is potentially possible, at a cost.....

 

[Jamesb1974]

As this debate is about providing an efficient seven day service, and nothing whatsoever to do with who earns what, this post is somewhat irrelevant.

Sorry, but it is entirely relevant.

You all forget that your salaries are paid by the punters and the taxpayers.

Spongsdad Page 1

I work in a sector that is 24/7 and weekends are just another day. if people work a Saturday or Sunday they don't get extra money, they just get other days off in the week.

The only extra pay we get is for night working, to recognise the well publicised health risks.

Is there some reason why this can't work on the railways?

Hellfire, Page 4

If you choose to work in an industry that is a seven day one, you should accept you will have to work at weekends. how would you feel if you became seriously ill on a Sunday and were told the nearest hospital was closed because staff had decided they didn't want to work?

Hellfire, page 4.

As Emyr pointed out, it was a rebuttal to the likes of Spongsdad and yourself, for whining about not getting paid sundays and "we pay your wages". You don't like the fact that you don't get paid extra for Sundays and someone else does? You know what to do. Find a job that pays extra for Sundays...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry, but it is entirely relevant.

Spongsdad Page 1

Hellfire, Page 4

Hellfire, page 4.

As Emyr pointed out, it was a rebuttal to the likes of Spongsdad and yourself, for whining about not getting paid sundays and "we pay your wages". You don't like the fact that you don't get paid extra for Sundays and someone else does? You know what to do. Find a job that pays extra for Sundays...

Excellent post James so as I am a taxpayer who pays my own wages can I give myself a nice 10% payrise?

 

[northwichcat]

Excellent post James so as I am a taxpayer who pays my own wages can I give myself a nice 10% payrise?

This general idea doesn't work.

The incoming income for Northern comes from a combination of fares, subsidy from DfT and other third party sources e.g. advertising boards at stations. So what proportion of that is subsidy from DfT?

Just as an example let's assume it's 30% subsidy, 60% fares and 10% other and the driver salary is £40,000. That would mean tax payers fund £12,000 of the £40,000 and if a tax payer says a driver can have a 10% payrise that would equate to a payrise of £1,200.

A problem if we say passengers can decide on crew's salaries is then logically the advertisers should also have a say. So Virgin could offer a huge amount for all Northern's advertising space and then they get a say in whether another TOC gives its crews a pay rise. Virgin's view could then be don't offer them 1p more - ever, then they are more likely to come and work for us instead.

 

[Hellfire]

You seem to have read something into my posts that wasn't there. I haven't said one word about not liking the fact I don't get paid for working on Sundays.

If you are going to rebut someone's argument, at least have the decency to understand what was said rather than rebutting something you are implying which wasn't there.

 

[LowLevel]

What we are saying to you in rebuttal is that you, personally, are saying that this is the issue, these rights must be sold as they're unreasonable, it's just down to negotiating a price.

What we're telling you politely or otherwise in some cases is that the TOCs and the unions both disagree with you therefore this remains your personal opinion broadcast on a web forum only. The unions don't have to sell their rights and the TOCs don't have to buy them and as it's a matter of contractual terms and conditions, I'm afraid forget the travelling public, they're irrelevant..

There is actually a happy middle ground at my TOC with a semi contractual gentleman's agreement in place of dubious enforceability as compulsory overtime is illegal. Sundays are outside the working week but staff employed since x date are allowed to chuck them in, but should work them if cover is not available. Staff prior to x date can chuck them in regardless.

 

[TUC]

Even if TOCs have inherited staff with historic rights re: Sunday working, that is no reason why they should not have long since said it will not apply to any new staff.

 

[Bellbell]

What we are saying to you in rebuttal is that you, personally, are saying that this is the issue, these rights must be sold as they're unreasonable, it's just down to negotiating a price.

What we're telling you politely or otherwise in some cases is that the TOCs and the unions both disagree with you therefore this remains your personal opinion broadcast on a web forum only. The unions don't have to sell their rights and the TOCs don't have to buy them and as it's a matter of contractual terms and conditions, I'm afraid forget the travelling public, they're irrelevant..

There is actually a happy middle ground at my TOC with a semi contractual gentleman's agreement in place of dubious enforceability as compulsory overtime is illegal. Sundays are outside the working week but staff employed since x date are allowed to chuck them in, but should work them if cover is not available. Staff prior to x date can chuck them in regardless.

We have the same dubious agreement; I'm curious to see what the recent ruling will do to this compulsory overtime. It is frustrating that we're required to work them but get no holiday or sick pay for them.

 

[LowLevel]

There is an excellent reason - the trade unions I pay my subs to which prevent unilateral changes in my working conditions without compensation by threat of a big stick and the cost therefore associated with such a change.

Before you come back with 'insult to the passenger' 'pay your wages' etc - the best part is I don't care what you think, fellow anonymous internet poster

 

[ComUtoR]

We have the same dubious agreement; I'm curious to see what the recent ruling will do to this compulsory overtime. It is frustrating that we're required to work them but get no holiday or sick pay for them.

I would say "Be careful what you wish for"

I used to work for a company who didn't pay any sick pay. If you went sick you got SSP.

Another company I worked for Paid SSP for any sickness under 3 days, then only paid full pay if you had 3 or more days off. That stopped the random "sickies" that people took and if that was your only day that week or you only worked weekends.

The ruling is an interesting one and I really really hope that they clarify what is meant by "non-guaranteed" and "compulsory". Unless those Sundays are contractual they may be considered "Voluntary" a gentleman's agreement might not hold water when it comes to payment.

Do you get paid overtime if your train is running late ? If your train is running late and your booked off before you TC. DO you submit a claim for overtime and is that considered "Compulsory" ? Also RDW is "not-guaranteed" so would that push your "normal remuneration" up or will they also be considered voluntary ?

Either way it will most likely trigger a T&C change.

 

[Bellbell]

It's not really a matter of what I wish for, if the ruling is upheld once the appeals are exhausted then I can't see how the company can do anything other than at least reassess the Sunday situation. I'm quite clear that not all the outcomes are desirable but it doesn't stop the annoyance that I'm forced to work something to which the company doesn't have to apply normal holiday/sickness policies. It might well be the case that the grass isn't greener, we'll have to see.

If the train is late we are required to work up to an hour's unpaid overtime per week.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm quite clear that not all the outcomes are desirable but it doesn't stop the annoyance that I'm forced to work something to which the company doesn't have to apply normal holiday/sickness policies. It might well be the case that the grass isn't greener, we'll have to see.

If the train is late we are required to work up to an hour's unpaid overtime per week.

Firstly, thanks for your reply.

I'm glad the ruling has come out but I feel that the impact could be detrimental. I support the commission based workers much much more than the RDW as you typically get a lower pay because your on commission. That ruling has yet to be decided. Guards/Conductors get commission on some TOC's so I also forsee a change there. I hope the unions can find the balance between what may be lost for the increase in holiday pay.

Keeping on topic. The crux of that debate about Sunday working does follow from what your saying. Employees agree terms and conditions before they start. Its certainly your right to feel annoyed but those are the terms you have agreed to.

Outside looking in; it is difficult to see beyond the ticket price. We do not see that late running might be coming out of the crew's personal time and they are not getting payed. We do not see that RDW is not compulsory but by mutual agreement for the good of the service. We do not see the enforced overtime through committed hour agreements/SP turns/Service disruption and we do not see that Sunday's off are contractual.

 

[Hellfire]

I'm afraid forget the travelling public, they're irrelevant.

I rather hope you don't really mean this.

 

[455driver]

I rather hope you don't really mean this.

I think he is referring to the travelling publics request for changes to ours T&Cs and not to the travelling public in general.

 

[LowLevel]

I rather hope you don't really mean this.

In terms of my contractual arrangements with my employer, I certainly do. The only interest the public have is that services aren't cancelled due to a lack of train crew. The particulars of achieving this are no more to do with them than any other employee in any other job role. It may be Sundays in the week is the way forward, or committed Sundays you can bin without penalty if you have cover, or it may be that they stay out but TOCs offer attractive payments so they're worked. That's between my reps and my employer and nothing to do with the passenger.

Of course I do care about the passenger in terms of customer service and keeping them safe - but the why's and how's of how I end up on the train working for them are none of their business anymore than that of a sales assistant in Tesco or their dentist.

 

[TUC]

At the risk of asking a question that's probably come up before, why don't TOCs develop a pool of staff who are purely employed to cover rest days and other contingencies like staff sickness and holidays?

 

[LowLevel]

In some grades they do - they're called general purpose/rest day reliefs, most often found in ticket offices, platform staff and signal boxes. Doesn't really work for on train staff due to route knowledge requirements so it's covered as part of the roster using spare/standby turns where you can be required to work any open job that meets the parameters of your day.