I think my son is 'fare dodging'

[resoundingecho]

Hi,

I live in zone 6 London

my son is only 18 and he recently got a job.

It's a minimum wage job where he works hard and gets very little money so I understand his 'frustration' at how expensive transport is around london, however rules are rules and if he was to 'fare dodge' I would not agree.

Having said that although I am his mother he is an adult now and I cannot 'make him'

I don't have any proof he's fare dodging but I suspect he does

I am going to talk to him, I know him very well, I think he will say that after 'bills/rent/food' if he paid for a travelcard zones 2 to 6 he'd have hardly anything left. He's a manual worker, he works quite hard and he will be left with hardly £50 a week after a 60 hour week (hours include commuting to sites across greater London)

I think he thinks that he will do it until he can 'get away' with it and when he gets caught once he will stop.

However i am worried that the time he gets caught he may be landed with a prosecution not just a fine, and his young life 'stained' with a record.

I also of course do not agree with this and I wish to make him see sense, but I think he has his 'teenage' brain on saying 'oh well, the trains are running whether I pay or not so I am only getting a lift, they will not notice i am there'

I certainly did not give him this example in my life as I work hard myself and always pay for things, so he did not get the message from me that 'oh well it's ok to do this for a bit'

any advice:

am I right in thinking he could be prosecuted even if caught for first time? how can I make him believe this? I don't want to talk to him and he will think 'oh well it's just my mum she does not really know how it works and she's just blowing it out of proportion in her head! I will not get prosecuted, just 'slapped on the wrist with a fine at worst'.

he is a good young man just 'naive' and not grown up for some things

thank you

 

[185143]

Show him some examples of cases of Fare evasion from the Disputes and Prosecutions section?

 

[6Gman]

You need to warn him that fare evasion is a dangerous game to play.

A criminal prosecution is a distinct possibility which, aside from a heavy fine, could also cause future problems with employment and even travel abroad.

 

[najaB]

am I right in thinking he could be prosecuted even if caught for first time? how can I make him believe this? I don't want to talk to him and he will think 'oh well it's just my mum she does not really know how it works and she's just blowing it out of proportion in her head! I will not get prosecuted, just 'slapped on the wrist with a fine at worst'.

Start by showing him that it's not just a slap on the wrist - it can be up to £1000.

 

[resoundingecho]

thank you everyone!!!

I have talked to him and yes he has been fare dodging and exactly for the reasons I thought: he gets paid so little he will have hardly nothing left and he will feel it's not worth going to work

As a mother I feel I am responsible to help him grow up in a responsible adult as much as possible.

We discussed, I told him I am not angry with him and I can see why he was tempted to do it, but how it is not only dangerous but also 'wrong' (he said 'it's so easy mum and tempting as there's no barriers so you just don't touch in with the oyster card. It's like they are asking you to fare dodge when it's so expensive')

I explained to him I have been on these forums and that young men/women just like him have been prosecuted/fined heavily for what they thought was something not too bad or for mistakes.

I told him I am worried he may get a criminal conviction when he is a good young man and he does not deserve it.

We sat down to work his finances

We agreed he has to pay a contribution towards rent/bills (as he has been doing anyway) and he 'has to' stop fare evading, hopefully have some money left for himself too.

So I have reduced his rent/bills contribution for now for him to afford paying for the travel.

He will still contribute to rent/bills but not as much but at least he is paying for his travel, I have just now bought him a weekly travelcard which will load onto his oyster tomorrow morning as he touches in.

we agreed he will pay me the travelcard money every week with the rent/food/bills money and I will load the travelcard onto his oyster via the online account so he won't be tempted not to or forget

 

[bb21]

I must say not many parents take such a proactive approach and you have my utmost respect for doing that.

Don't forget that we are not just here to help people when they get in trouble, we are also here to offer legitimate ways in which one can save money. You may want to start a thread in the main fares advice area with his journey requirements and travel patterns and see if someone could come up with a way to save him some money using methods that won't land him in trouble.

Yes, and I can understand how it can be very tempting at that age to see paying for the travels very much a non-priority compared to many other things, especially when money is tight.

 

[resoundingecho]

I must say not many parents take such a proactive approach and you have my utmost respect for doing that.

Don't forget that we are not just here to help people when they get in trouble, we are also here to offer legitimate ways in which one can save money. You may want to start a thread in the main fares advice area with his journey requirements and travel patterns and see if someone could come up with a way to save him some money using methods that won't land him in trouble.

Yes, and I can understand how it can be very tempting at that age to see paying for the travels very much a non-priority compared to many other things, especially when money is tight.

thank you bb21, will do

and thanks to everyone for being so nice

 

[Flamingo]

Again, your son should be praised for getting a job, even if it is low-paid, and this deserves respect. Lots wouldn't.

It would be a crying shame if he ruined his chances by a criminal conviction, as he obviously has a good work ethic.

As bb21 says, get him on here to get tips about how to save money legally. He might get away with it for six or twelve months, but if it's a regular journey he will eventually attract attention and it will end in tears.

Also, get him to start looking at the TOC websites for jobs - we need good workers!

 

[Be3G]

He will still contribute to rent/bills but not as much but at least he is paying for his travel, I have just now bought him a weekly travelcard which will load onto his oyster tomorrow morning as he touches in.

we agreed he will pay me the travelcard money every week with the rent/food/bills money and I will load the travelcard onto his oyster via the online account so he won't be tempted not to or forget

Seeing as you're kindly paying for your son's travel initially and then asking him to repay it from his wages (a good idea by the way), something I'd like to suggest which would save him money is – if your own finances could stretch to it – that you buy him monthly travelcards instead. (Or even an annual one if you're rich!) Doing that would reduce the effective daily cost of travel that your son would have to repay, which sounds like it would be useful for him; furthermore, if a longer period season is purchased and then your son decides it's not needed (e.g. his job location moves elsewhere), a refund of the unused portion of the season ticket would be available, minus a small admin fee. So no-one need worry about a large amount of money being lost for good. Something to consider perhaps.

(Mods: sorry if this seemed off-topic as this isn't the fares advice board but I wanted to get the suggestion in here, as it's made potentially viable specifically by resoundingecho's concerned parenting.)

 

[455driver]

Does he travel through zone 1 at all (even to get to zone 2 on the other side of London), because if he does then he will need to include zone 1 on the travelcard even if he doesn't get off in zone 1.
A lot of people are caught doing that!

 

[yorkie]

Does he travel through zone 1 at all (even to get to zone 2 on the other side of London), because if he does then he will need to include zone 1 on the travelcard even if he doesn't get off in zone 1.
A lot of people are caught doing that!

If he ensures that:

• the Travelcard is always held on Oyster (not paper); and
• he always has sufficient PAYG credit on the Oyster card to cover any potential charges (I strongly recommend enabling auto top-up, to be safe); and
• always touches in/out correctly

then any journeys via Zone 1 will be entirely legitimate (and won't always be charged).

 

[resoundingecho]

Seeing as you're kindly paying for your son's travel initially and then asking him to repay it from his wages (a good idea by the way), something I'd like to suggest which would save him money is – if your own finances could stretch to it – that you buy him monthly travelcards instead. (Or even an annual one if you're rich!) Doing that would reduce the effective daily cost of travel that your son would have to repay, which sounds like it would be useful for him; furthermore, if a longer period season is purchased and then your son decides it's not needed (e.g. his job location moves elsewhere), a refund of the unused portion of the season ticket would be available, minus a small admin fee. So no-one need worry about a large amount of money being lost for good. Something to consider perhaps.

(Mods: sorry if this seemed off-topic as this isn't the fares advice board but I wanted to get the suggestion in here, as it's made potentially viable specifically by resoundingecho's concerned parenting.)

Does he travel through zone 1 at all (even to get to zone 2 on the other side of London), because if he does then he will need to include zone 1 on the travelcard even if he doesn't get off in zone 1.
A lot of people are caught doing that!

If he ensures that:

• the Travelcard is always held on Oyster (not paper); and
• he always has sufficient PAYG credit on the Oyster card to cover any potential charges (I strongly recommend enabling auto top-up, to be safe); and
• always touches in/out correctly

then any journeys via Zone 1 will be entirely legitimate (and won't always be charged).

thank you for the above

Unfortunately his job is on a self employed basis and it is also outdoors so he is not guaranteed work if whether is bad/too wet or slippery, so buying an annual (even monthly) travelcard may end up proving too expensive.

He is every week putting aside some money to cover himself for the days he may not be working so that's good, but buying an annual and then not using it to its full effect may prove a loss, we better wait until we know his job will be more 'reliable' I think as he's only started 2 months ago.

No, thankfully he never goes into zone one, unless it's a day out windown shopping with mates, and he does know his oyster would not cover him for that. He is not 'bold enough' to dodge where there is barriers/ticket inspectors so he never thought of doing that, he is aware that zone one is not on his travelcard as he actually asked me last night what does he do if he goes into central London (which I explained to him).

Thank you I do appreciate all the posts and suggestions, am happy I've posted here.

 

[Fare-Cop]

thank you everyone!!!

I have talked to him and yes he has been fare dodging and exactly for the reasons I thought: he gets paid so little he will have hardly nothing left and he will feel it's not worth going to work

As a mother I feel I am responsible to help him grow up in a responsible adult as much as possible.

We discussed, I told him I am not angry with him and I can see why he was tempted to do it, but how it is not only dangerous but also 'wrong' (he said 'it's so easy mum and tempting as there's no barriers so you just don't touch in with the oyster card. It's like they are asking you to fare dodge when it's so expensive')

I explained to him I have been on these forums and that young men/women just like him have been prosecuted/fined heavily for what they thought was something not too bad or for mistakes.

I told him I am worried he may get a criminal conviction when he is a good young man and he does not deserve it.

We sat down to work his finances

We agreed he has to pay a contribution towards rent/bills (as he has been doing anyway) and he 'has to' stop fare evading, hopefully have some money left for himself too.

So I have reduced his rent/bills contribution for now for him to afford paying for the travel.

He will still contribute to rent/bills but not as much but at least he is paying for his travel, I have just now bought him a weekly travelcard which will load onto his oyster tomorrow morning as he touches in.

we agreed he will pay me the travelcard money every week with the rent/food/bills money and I will load the travelcard onto his oyster via the online account so he won't be tempted not to or forget

Well done, and thank you for a great post which restores faith in good values in so many ways.

I wish you and your son all the future successes that you both deserve.

 

[Greenback]

Well said, Fare-Cop.

 

[LexyBoy]

At the risk of sounding like Norman Tebbit, could some of your son's journeys be made by bike? If a reasonable number could then it might be cheaper to buy him a bike and use PAYG Oyster when not practical. I appreciate it might not be possible if he has tools etc to take.

If he does travel into Z1 then he can use the bus from a Z2 station - any Travelcard is valid on all London Buses, irrespective of zone. Or as you say he can use PAYG credit to make the journey by Tube or train - he must touch in at the start of the journey in this case, as well as out.

 

[resoundingecho]

thank you fare-cop

lexyboy I have proposed to my son to help him buy a scooter but he doesn't want that, equally he would not get on a bicycle

if he goes into z1 he will use pay as you go yes, however he only goes into z1 about twice a year

 

[Tom B]

Would the planned "weekly capping" which I think is being rolled out on contactless cards soon, be helpful in this situation? Especially if this extends to monthly capping. Essentially allowing people to obtain a cheaper fare (the same as a season, I think?) without the "commitment" of buying it up front - your weekly travel is just capped at the amount the weekly ticket would have been if you bought it.

 

[MikeWh]

Would the planned "weekly capping" which I think is being rolled out on contactless cards soon, be helpful in this situation? Especially if this extends to monthly capping. Essentially allowing people to obtain a cheaper fare (the same as a season, I think?) without the "commitment" of buying it up front - your weekly travel is just capped at the amount the weekly ticket would have been if you bought it.

It was rolled out in September! If your son has a contactless payment card then it could certainly take away the concern if the weather cut short a week.

 

[DelayRepay]

It was rolled out in September! If your son has a contactless payment card then it could certainly take away the concern if the weather cut short a week.

But may increase the temptation for him to fare dodge if funds were running low, or if he'd not hit the cap by the end of the week...

 

[resoundingecho]

But may increase the temptation for him to fare dodge if funds were running low, or if he'd not hit the cap by the end of the week...

yes I think you're right DelayRepay

but also...would the weekly capping still apply if you do not travel for one day that week? if so then yes it would be cheaper, but if not then 4 daily travelcards are more expensive than a weekly one

Actually DelayRepay...what if the contactless card was from one of my bank accounts?? then he would not be tempted not to use it as he would not 'benefit' from this..meaning if it's from his bank account then he would be tempted as he'd have more money to spend on himself

I have an 'almost dormant' bank account, it could be turned into the 'travel' bank account where I deposit 'travel money' in (I would have a 'buffer' in case something goes not to plan and the money used is a little more)

 

[John @ home]

what if the contactless card was from one of my bank accounts?

I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure if you would need to convert the account into a joint account with your son first.

I know that it's OK to give your undiscounted pay-as-you-go Oyster card to someone else for them to use with your permission. With bank cards, I know that it's OK to give the card and the booking reference to someone else and ask them to collect some railway tickets for you, but it's not allowed to give them your PIN and ask them to collect some cash for you.

But I just don't know whether you're allowed to give a contactless card in your name to someone else for them to use for travel with your permission. Hopefully one of our banking experts will be along soon to clarify this.

 

[MikeWh]

but also...would the weekly capping still apply if you do not travel for one day that week? if so then yes it would be cheaper, but if not then 4 daily travelcards are more expensive than a weekly one

Yes, weekly capping applies to whatever travel you undertake in a Monday to Sunday week. Each day it applies the relevant daily cap and also checks whether the best weekly cap has been reached.

I would recommend he uses his own CPC as I'm also not sure of the legality of using someone elses card. Register the card with the TfL website and then you can see journey history going back a year. If he lets you have his TfL login details then you can even track his travel during the day as most touches are sent to the central database within 15 minutes.

 

[maniacmartin]

Using someone else's card is against banks' T&Cs. Also, if you set up a joint bank account, your credit histories will be linked, so be wary of that, especially if he has a bad credit history. If you have a credit card, you can add your son as an additional cardholder without linking credit histories, but all of the debt he might run up would be in your name and you alone would be liable for it.

Personally, I think the idea of using one of your bank accounts is overkill for this problem. The solution isn't more technology; its that your son has to exercise better budgeting and self-control.

 

[parkender102]

thank you fare-cop

lexyboy I have proposed to my son to help him buy a scooter but he doesn't want that, equally he would not get on a bicycle

if he goes into z1 he will use pay as you go yes, however he only goes into z1 about twice a year

Any chance he can borrow a bike for a few weeks to try it out. Cycling around London to and from work and occasionally using my Oyster in foul weather and other occasions really opened my eyes up to how small London is when you hit the road. It's an absolute pleasure particularly in Spring and Summer and a great way to experience the city - and of course it keeps you fit and healthy. There are plenty of safe off road routes around London (Thames Path, Royal Parks, Regents Canal etc etc). Just remember the Helmet, Lights and a decent lock.

 

[resoundingecho]

ok, thank you again for all the feedback/ideas

at the moment he will keep using the travelcard on oyster, the contactless on his name is 'in the pipework' (no it will not be on my name)

its his first full time job facing life 'out there', he was a student until last year, he's not too bad with budgeting, he just has to learn to accept that real life is working many hours and having hardly anything left for yourself, especially when you are unskilled and unqualified, but he can make it better for himself in the future if he's prepared to work hard and improve on his skills then he will get a better quality of life later on