EU, Immigration and UKIP

[EM2]

Opposing mass immigration does not make somebody a racist

Saying that you should be concerned if Romanians lived next door is, though. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukips-nigel-farage-tells-lbc-radio-dont-want-152212173.html?.tsrc=warhol

Speaking on the popular James O'Brien show, Farage said: "I was asked a question if a group of Romanian men moved in next to you, would you be concerned. If you lived in London I think you would be."

But Farage denied fanning the flames of bigotry against immigrants, insisting: "I'm not demonising anybody. I'm demonising a political class who has had an open door allowing things like this to happen."

When O'Brien asked him what would be the difference between Romanians moving next door and Germans, citing Nigel Farage's own German wife and children, Farage responded: "You know the difference."

 

[Antman]

Saying that you should be concerned if Romanians lived next door is, though. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukips-nigel-farage-tells-lbc-radio-dont-want-152212173.html?.tsrc=warhol

I think his "you know the difference" comment was very apt, I'm sure many Romanians are very nice people but some clearly are not and it is perhaps inevitable the whole lot get stigmatised, just like British football fans abroad do.

If somebody in France said they'd rather have German neighbours than English ones I wouldn't be offended.

There are too many people just looking for something to be offended about.

 

[Greenback]

He has a particular thing about Romanians though constantly talking about them

Not to mention his comments about being concerned if a group of Romanians moved in next door . Fair enough if you dont think that is racist . I happen to feel that it is racist and only helps to stoke up tensions tarring all Romanians with the same brush . We will have to agree to disagree on that one .

Regardless of if it was said with racist intent or not that is unwise for someone in his position to say .

I agree that it's unwise to single out one particular nation. That said, he seems to be using this for illustrative purposes, and while he may be opposed to the EU on the grounds that Central/Eastern Europeans are flooding over here, to my knowledge he has never proposed any exemption for Western European nations.

I still think he is just opposed to any unrestricted immigration, he'd probably like to see the end of the Common Travel Area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK as well.

 

[muz379]

I agree that it's unwise to single out one particular nation. That said, he seems to be using this for illustrative purposes, and while he may be opposed to the EU on the grounds that Central/Eastern Europeans are flooding over here, to my knowledge he has never proposed any exemption for Western European nations.

I still think he is just opposed to any unrestricted immigration, he'd probably like to see the end of the Common Travel Area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK as well.

He does however employ his German wife as his secretary so obviously he has to make some exceptions .

 

[EM2]

I think his "you know the difference" comment was very apt, I'm sure many Romanians are very nice people but some clearly are not and it is perhaps inevitable the whole lot get stigmatised, just like British football fans abroad do.

If somebody in France said they'd rather have German neighbours than English ones I wouldn't be offended.

There are too many people just looking for something to be offended about.

And some Germans are not very nice people either. And some English. And some Irish. And some Nigerian. And so on and so forth.
Saying 'you know the difference' is saying 'these people (Romanians) are horrible and these other people (Germans) are not'. If he's serious about migration, he should be as concerned about Germans living next door as he is Romanians.

 

[fowler9]

I find UKIP a bit of an enigma. A bunch of Neo Liberals who seem to be completely against the unfettered immigration that makes Neo Liberalism work, cheap foreign labour. Too many people seem to want their cake and to eat it. Cheap consumer goods and expensive British labour making them. Apparently Boris Johnson was disgusted about an Australian who got booted out of the UK, I guess Boris has never tried to get a work permit in Australia.

 

[Wyvern]

No names no pack drill as they say, but it seems it may be worth studying who gains by association with companies that stand to benefit from Tory/UKIP policies. (we dont know what Labour's are yet)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No names no pack drill as they say, but it seems it may be worth studying who gains by association with companies that stand to benefit from Tory/UKIP policies. (we dont know what Labour's are yet)

Actually, on immigration, we do know the gist of Labour policies (although not the fine details): They want to reduce immigration, but they want to do so by focusing on some of the things that attract people to want to come here, instead of targeting immigrants themselves. Examples they have cited include, making it illegal for companies to advertise UK-based jobs only to foreigners (for example, advertising in Poland but not in the UK), and much more rigorous enforcement of minimum wage legislation (which would target the problem of employers employing migrants because they think they can get away with paying them illegal below-minimum-wage wages, which a UK citizen would never accept).

Broadly seems very sensible to me: Making it less attractive for certain groups of people to come to the UK, without falling into the trap of demonizing those people.

 

[Greenback]

I find UKIP a bit of an enigma. A bunch of Neo Liberals who seem to be completely against the unfettered immigration that makes Neo Liberalism work, cheap foreign labour. Too many people seem to want their cake and to eat it. Cheap consumer goods and expensive British labour making them. Apparently Boris Johnson was disgusted about an Australian who got booted out of the UK, I guess Boris has never tried to get a work permit in Australia.

I have to agree with this analysis of UKIP.

 

[Searle]

Opposing mass immigration does not make somebody a racist

No, but this does, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...e-White-people-blacking-up-not-offensive.html

Extremely racist and offensive to the many black people in our country, that he agrees that people dressing up and making fun of them "for a laugh" is acceptable.

 

[fowler9]

No, but this does, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...e-White-people-blacking-up-not-offensive.html

Extremely racist and offensive to the many black people in our country, that he agrees that people dressing up and making fun of them "for a laugh" is acceptable.

Yeah, anyone brought to the UK as part of the slave trade being offended by white people blacking themselves up is probably being a bit oversensitive.

 

[43021HST]

I find UKIP a bit of an enigma. A bunch of Neo Liberals who seem to be completely against the unfettered immigration that makes Neo Liberalism work, cheap foreign labour. Too many people seem to want their cake and to eat it. Cheap consumer goods and expensive British labour making them. Apparently Boris Johnson was disgusted about an Australian who got booted out of the UK, I guess Boris has never tried to get a work permit in Australia.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I really wish UKIP would stop saying they're an anti establishment party, when they're just like the rest, worse in fact. Farage says he 'wants to keep the flame of thatcherism alive' it was Thatcher that installed this neo-liberal dogma in the first place.

My uncle who's normally a Labour voter, hates Thatcher, but is a bit racist (you know the type) was thinking of voting UKIP. I told him about Farrage being a Thatcher supporter and I can assure he won't be voting UKIP now. That's my good deed done for the week.

To those users who keep sticking to the immigration line; immigration is not a cause of Britain's problems, it's people like Farrage who are.

 

[Antman]

No, but this does, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...e-White-people-blacking-up-not-offensive.html

Extremely racist and offensive to the many black people in our country, that he agrees that people dressing up and making fun of them "for a laugh" is acceptable.

It depends upon the context in which it is done, I've been to various festivals where there are white people who have blacked themselves up for their role and I can't see what is offensive about that.

And I'd certainly agree with the closing part of that article about rich people being able to hire nannies, chauffeurs, gardeners etc on the cheap because of immigration, it is just a means of driving down the indigenous working class population.

 

[radamfi]

he'd probably like to see the end of the Common Travel Area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK as well.

I would actually be surprised if he did. Right wing British politicians probably still, in their heart of hearts, consider Ireland an integral part of the UK and would passionately want to preserve the union between Ireland and the UK (just like they did regarding Scotland) if partition had not occurred.

 

[Wyvern]

My uncle who's normally a Labour voter, hates Thatcher, but is a bit racist (you know the type) was thinking of voting UKIP. I told him about Farrage being a Thatcher supporter and I can assure he won't be voting UKIP now. That's my good deed done for the week.

Repeating myself but get him to look at what the Green's policies now are (not what the papers say they are) Just saying.

I just wonder whether the reason many Eurosceptics particularly those in UKIP want out of the EU because it is trying to introduce curbs on the excesses of the finance houses.

The real debate nowadays is not right or left but between neoliberal capitalism and socially aware capitalism.

 

[gordonthemoron]

the people we don't want coming back to the UK are expats, especially expat pensioners which will put a strain on the NHS. Leaving the EU may cause this to happen

 

[Antman]

the people we don't want coming back to the UK are expats, especially expat pensioners which will put a strain on the NHS. Leaving the EU may cause this to happen

What those who have paid in all their working lives?

 

[43021HST]

Repeating myself but get him to look at what the Green's policies now are (not what the papers say they are) Just saying.

I just wonder whether the reason many Eurosceptics particularly those in UKIP want out of the EU because it is trying to introduce curbs on the excesses of the finance houses.

The real debate nowadays is not right or left but between neoliberal capitalism and socially aware capitalism.

I think he's voted for the Greens on a number of occasions, mostly for the local council elections. As much as I agree with the policies of Greens, I'm sticking with voting Labour, otherwise if a lot of people did that, you run the risk of splitting the labour vote and suffering another four years of Tories.

Most ordinary people describe themselves as being left or right or wing. Neo-Liberal capitalism and socially aware capitalism (I think that's called paternalism) both follow the same right wing trajectory, the people want genuine alternatives not more of the same.

I'm actually willing to say that in ordinary working class peoples heart of hearts, most of them are naturally left wing, but also they don't like outsiders, and UKIP work on that element, rather than the left agenda element.
(I'm from a huge working class family so I'm not your stereotypical middle class leftie student)

The problem is as well the mass media has far too much say in this country, I don't know about you, but I found the pictures of the three main party leaders and UKIP's leader holding up a copy of the Sun really horrifying. The sooner the internet puts a death to the print media the better.

 

[gordonthemoron]

What those who have paid in all their working lives?

it's cheaper for the UK if they stay abroad

 

[EM2]

It depends upon the context in which it is done, I've been to various festivals where there are white people who have blacked themselves up for their role and I can't see what is offensive about that.

Well, how about not performing that piece unless there are black people that can play those roles? Wouldn't that be less offensive?
Would you have thought it OK if a white actor had blacked up to play the lead in 'Twelve Years A Slave'?

 

[jon0844]

Immigration of fully grown, young, educated adults is preferable to having home grown children, and also better for the environment. The immense cost to the state of pregnancy, infant health care costs, child benefit and education is avoided.

You have a point there, except that a lot of people who come here to work aren't seeking to settle here for life. They work, often living in poor and cramped conditions, to earn a good sum of money to take home - where the money will go a lot further.

So, if anyone ever thought it was advantageous to import labour and it being good for our economy, it's perhaps important to consider what happens when they no longer see the need to come here.

 

[ExRes]

it's cheaper for the UK if they stay abroad

Tough luck on the UK then, if people who worked and paid their dues are not welcome in this country then we might as well give up, but what's the problem, we're being constantly told on this forum what a bonus immigrants are to the UK, how hard they work and how much they put into the economy, so let them pay for the NHS if they want to be part of this country

As for expats, will they not pay into the system for a second time through tax on their personal pensions, VAT on everything they buy, stamp duty on their property and then if they need to go into care they'll have their homes sold from under them to pay for that as well, just how much cheaper for the UK if they stay abroad ?

 

[fowler9]

What those who have paid in all their working lives?

What? Paid in all their working lives in Spain?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tough luck on the UK then, if people who worked and paid their dues are not welcome in this country then we might as well give up, but what's the problem, we're being constantly told on this forum what a bonus immigrants are to the UK, how hard they work and how much they put into the economy, so let them pay for the NHS if they want to be part of this country

As for expats, will they not pay into the system for a second time through tax on their personal pensions, VAT on everything they buy, stamp duty on their property and then if they need to go into care they'll have their homes sold from under them to pay for that as well, just how much cheaper for the UK if they stay abroad ?

You as well. How have the pensioners paid their dues living and working abroad?

 

[ExRes]

What? Paid in all their working lives in Spain?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You as well. How have the pensioners paid their dues living and working abroad?

Try looking up the meaning of expat

 

[fowler9]

Try looking up the meaning of expat

Yeah I've got a mate living in China who is 23, if they come back to the UK age 65 have they paid in to the pot their entire life? Another mate age 30 living in Australia, ditto. Try looking up the meaning of paid in to the system your entire life. They are both expats.

 

[ExRes]

Look up the meaning of expat, you're just making yourself look stupid

An expat can just as easily be, and is in many tens of thousands of cases, someone who has retired to an overseas country after they have worked in the UK and paid into the Income Tax and National Insurance system for their entire working life

I've done my 40 years paying into the system here, if I choose to move to a foreign country for my retirement I would be an expat, got it now ?

 

[fowler9]

Look up the meaning of expat, you're just making yourself look stupid

An expat can just as easily be, and is in many tens of thousands of cases, someone who has retired to an overseas country after they have worked in the UK and paid into the Income Tax and National Insurance system for their entire working life

I've done my 40 years paying into the system here, if I choose to move to a foreign country for my retirement I would be an expat, got it now ?

Look mate I really don't get your point and you are being needlessly rude. Someone mentioned British expats coming back and being a burden on the state. You and maybe some others mentioned people having paid in to the system all their lives. I mentioned people who are expats who most certainly haven't paid a hell of a lot in to the system. Most expats I know are very young. How have I made myself look stupid?

 

[ExRes]

the people we don't want coming back to the UK are expats, especially expat pensioners which will put a strain on the NHS. Leaving the EU may cause this to happen

This was the original post regarding expats, it's you that chose to question what Antman and myself said with your short and rude post earlier

 

[fowler9]

This was the original post regarding expats, it's you that chose to question what Antman and myself said with your short and rude post earlier

I don't follow. Where was I rude? Unless you are talking to someone else of course. The only short responses I have made were saying that people who have spent little time in the UK have paid little money in to the pot. Do you disagree with this?

 

[EM2]

For those that think that the money 'saved' by not contributing to the EU will cure all our ills, you may find this article from Sky's Economics Editor of intrest:
https://medium.com/sky-news/you-say-welfare-we-say-b230ec3322d7

But that is nonetheless the logic of the tax statements. Were they more honest they would underline the fact that a £30,000 taxpayer is contributing £210 a year to retired public sector workers. But a grand total of just £48.89 a year to those on Jobseeker’s Allowance. Which, while we’re at it, is less than their annual net contribution to the EU (£52)