Rail ticket 'rip-off': passengers routinely denied cheapest fares

[yorkie]

so why does the govt let this happen ?

Because they want to increase the amount people pay through fares.

Why not impose a rule upon all of the TOCs which allows the passenger to buy on board without penalty if the ticket machine cannot sell the ticket that the passengers want ? Perhaps Mary Creagh can shed some policy light on this matter. Alternatively, the Green party may have something to say.

Is anyone in the Wakefield area able to put this question to her? I'm sure we can come up with local examples. What stations are within her constituency?

I'm sure anyone can ask but it may be best if one of her constituents does. Must be someone on this forum in the relevant area?

 

[Greeby]

There is a simple solution to all of this. That is for the government to declare that the peak/unrestricted fare is the government regulated fare in all cases, with enforcement of that rule to begin immediately. Even at it's most lenient interpretation, these ridiculous long-distance prices will drop like a stone, and most of the gimmick fares will just vanish. If TOCs refuse to have a lower priced fare after that, then so be it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a simple solution to all of this. That is for the government to declare that the peak/unrestricted fare is the government regulated fare in all cases, with enforcement of that rule to begin immediately. Even at it's most lenient interpretation, these ridiculous long-distance prices will drop like a stone, and most of the gimmick fares will just vanish. If TOCs refuse to have a lower priced fare after that, then so be it.

So be it that there'd be no London-Manchester walkup under 100 quid each way? You can keep that.

Neil

 

[bb21]

I would rather the off-peak long distance fares be regulated, thank you very much.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

so why does the govt let this happen ? Why not impose a rule upon all of the TOCs which allows the passenger to buy on board without penalty if the ticket machine cannot sell the ticket that the passengers want ? Perhaps Mary Creagh can shed some policy light on this matter. Alternatively, the Green party may have something to say.

The Government need the TOCs to make money, otherwise the whole system doesn't work.....okay, it doesn't really work now, but it would work even less than it does now.

There is a simple solution to all of this. That is for the government to declare that the peak/unrestricted fare is the government regulated fare in all cases, with enforcement of that rule to begin immediately. Even at it's most lenient interpretation, these ridiculous long-distance prices will drop like a stone, and most of the gimmick fares will just vanish. If TOCs refuse to have a lower priced fare after that, then so be it.

Erm..... How about no!

Prices won't drop like a stone because the Anytime fares still get bought at the levels they are at and any reduction of that would adversely affect revenue and consequently mean that Government would have to add subsidy to the railway, the opposite of what it wants to do.

Further, the Off-Peak fares, that have been regulated, will shoot up to near Anytime levels because there is nothing to stop TOCs doing it!

 

[Greeby]

The Government need the TOCs to make money, otherwise the whole system doesn't work.....okay, it doesn't really work now, but it would work even less than it does now.



Erm..... How about no!

Prices won't drop like a stone because the Anytime fares still get bought at the levels they are at and any reduction of that would adversely affect revenue and consequently mean that Government would have to add subsidy to the railway, the opposite of what it wants to do.

Further, the Off-Peak fares, that have been regulated, will shoot up to near Anytime levels because there is nothing to stop TOCs doing it!

I'm referring to Anytime fares that are 1:1 ratio with the weekly season, just to get that capped at 2:1 would be serious progress.

How can Off-Peak rise beyond Anytime where Anytime is regulated?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm referring to Anytime fares that are 1:1 ratio with the weekly season, just to get that capped at 2:1 would be serious progress....

Which would still allow dramatic increase of Off-Peak fares.

....How can Off-Peak rise beyond Anytime where Anytime is regulated?

I said near, not above.

Example: Manchester-London

Fares now:

Weekly Season - £342.10
Anytime Return - £321
Off-Peak Return - £79.70

Assuming weekly stays as is, potential of a 2:1 price for Anytime:Weekly rate:

Weekly Season - £342.10
Anytime Return - £171.05
Off-Peak Return - £159.40

The Anytime fare nearly halves, but the Off Peak can still double and be lower than the Anytime fare.

 

[John @ home]

Perhaps Mary Creagh can shed some policy light on this matter.

What stations are within her constituency?

Wakefield Kirkgate and Wakefield Westgate only, it seems.

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/election-maps/gb/

 

[Merseysider]

Which would still allow dramatic increase of Off-Peak fares.



I said near, not above.

Example: Manchester-London

Fares now:

Weekly Season - £342.10
Anytime Return - £321
Off-Peak Return - £79.70

Assuming weekly stays as is, potential of a 2:1 price for Anytime:Weekly rate:

Weekly Season - £342.10
Anytime Return - £171.05
Off-Peak Return - £159.40

The Anytime fare nearly halves, but the Off Peak can still double and be lower than the Anytime fare.

The off-peak loadings between London and Manchester are already skeletal, would you want to price more off the train?

With regards to the original point made, my biggest gripe is ticket machines that won't apply a 16-25 railcard discount before 10:00 (had some Northern ones fail to do it between several stations in Manchester and Wigan).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The off-peak loadings between London and Manchester are already skeletal, would you want to price more off the train?.....

It was an example to illustrate a point.

 

[Merseysider]

It was an example to illustrate a point.

But surely any decrease to the cost of peak fares would be against the interests of the TOC, and any increase to off-peak fares would also be against the interests of the TOC?

Leisure travellers would be put off by exorbitant price rises and as many commuters have to use the train, a decrease to the peak fare would mean the TOC loses revenue and there is also the potential for overcrowded trains to become even more so.

Yes there are cheaper advance tickets but not everyone can commit to specific trains and not every route has them. I just don't see it as feasible.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Yes there are cheaper advance tickets but not everyone can commit to specific trains and not every route has them. I just don't see it as feasible.

Other than an increase in complexity, why are there not Advances that give you a choice of a trio of trains? So if there's a half hourly service, a ticket valid on the xx.yy, xx.yy+30 and xx+1.yy.

 

[tony_mac]

Northern's machines also don't offer super-off-peak tickets - their reason for this is that they 'don't have the budget' to update the machines.

I'm sure if the machines were under-charging passengers they would find the budget pretty quickly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But surely any decrease to the cost of peak fares would be against the interests of the TOC, and any increase to off-peak fares would also be against the interests of the TOC?....

I didn't say it would be, might I suggest you go back and read the posts again. Greeby said the simple solution was to make the Anytime fare the regulated fare (this would force the prices down, nothing the TOCs could do about it). I voiced an opinion against that on the basis that the only reason the off-peak fares aren't higher is because the TOCs can't do it (they are regulated). Greeby possibly didn't follow or thought I didn't (or a bit of both) and that is where my illustration comes in.

....Leisure travellers would be put off by exorbitant price rises and as many commuters have to use the train, a decrease to the peak fare would mean the TOC loses revenue and there is also the potential for overcrowded trains to become even more so....

To an extent, you have to consider that overall revenue is more important than number of sales, and bear in mind that not all Off-Peak travel is 'leisure travel'.

....Yes there are cheaper advance tickets but not everyone can commit to specific trains and not every route has them. I just don't see it as feasible.

I didn't say it was feasible, I was just using the example to show what *could* happen.

 

[RJ]

Northern's machines also don't offer super-off-peak tickets - their reason for this is that they 'don't have the budget' to update the machines.

I'm sure if the machines were under-charging passengers they would find the budget pretty quickly.

It's a shame it hasn't been fixed. I once had to go to the ticket office at Liverpool as a result of this - only to find the staff wouldn't sell it because they had a misconception about the restriction. Not only did I miss the last train before the evening peak during the needlessly long transaction, but I ended up paying for a more expensive ticket. Never did get any money back for that

One advantage of TVMs is that there's less risk of them not selling tickets when they're supposed to - unless they haven't been set up properly.

Seems like a pretty poor excuse - is that official?

 

[tony_mac]

Seems like a pretty poor excuse - is that official?

That's what they told Passenger Focus (who think they should at the very least put up a warning sign, but this hasn't happened in the last 3 years either).

 

[island]

The Times ran a similar article today but then went off-piste by claiming that a passenger could buy a ticket from a TVM for a station beyond his destination if it was cheaper but that this was "technically illegal" and could result in being charged "a new walk-up fare" on the train.

 

[Merseysider]

The Times ran a similar article today but then went off-piste by claiming that a passenger could buy a ticket from a TVM for a station beyond his destination if it was cheaper but that this was "technically illegal" and could result in being charged "a new walk-up fare" on the train.

Wow.

I hope, may god have mercy, they never write an article on splitting with a season ticket. :roll: