Abusive passengers without tickets allowed free travel?

[455driver]

Thank the maker those days are over.

Yeah because heaven forbid that someone who was preventing another person doing their job and being abusive about it got what they deserved! :roll:

 

[Delta558]

Railway Byelaw 24, (ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

Not quite the free-for-all alluded to in the humourous post previously, but any person employed by a TOC (the definition of an authorised person in the byelaws) is allowed to lay hands on an abusive passenger to 'assist in their removal from the railway'.

That's one can of worms opened, time for a beer and see what develops

 

[Rich McLean]

Many TOCs have a no touching rule despite what the Byelaws state. Guards and maybe RPIs would be able to fully open that can of worms

 

[Delta558]

Many TOCs have a no touching rule despite what the Byelaws state. Guards and maybe RPIs would be able to fully open that can of worms

I'm one of the former and have quite happily popped the lid! As far as I am aware, we do not have a 'no touch' rule at the TOC I work for. In fact, only a couple of weeks ago I woke a sleeping passenger as part of a full ticket check (announced over the PA so for sleepers read fare-dodgers). I heard a passenger behind me comment "Oh look, they wake people up down here", so I took great pleasure in apologising profusely to the chap I'd woken but also commenting rather loudly that he wanted one of the request stops and if I hadn't woken him we would have gone straight through there.

 

[Antman]

I'm one of the former and have quite happily popped the lid! As far as I am aware, we do not have a 'no touch' rule at the TOC I work for. In fact, only a couple of weeks ago I woke a sleeping passenger as part of a full ticket check (announced over the PA so for sleepers read fare-dodgers). I heard a passenger behind me comment "Oh look, they wake people up down here", so I took great pleasure in apologising profusely to the chap I'd woken but also commenting rather loudly that he wanted one of the request stops and if I hadn't woken him we would have gone straight through there.

However I wonder what the implications would have been if you had induced a panic attack by waking him and he had thumped you? A guard I spoke too once said the best course of action is to just stand there silently and if they are not really asleep they'll soon open their eyes assuming that you've gone.

 

[afyutr]

Was there not a video doing the rounds a couple of years back of a guy on a Scottish train kicking a youngster off when he refused to buy a ticket?

The guard on a train I was on last week took great pleasure in pulling the earphones out of an individual's lugs who had suddenly fallen into a music induced coma during the ticket check. Fair play to him.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Thank the maker those days are over.

Hm, pity they are.

 

[muz379]

Peronally if someone was squaring up to other passengers my first port of call would be to see if police could meet us at the next stop or somewhere on the trains journey because that is unacceptable .

However in keeping his cool and not loosing his rag and coming up with a solution of sorts to move the guy down the train the TM did the right thing . Sometimes wading in with the authoritarian this is my train and you are going to buy a ticket or get off doesn't get anyone nowhere and actually exacerbates the situation .Just smile , bite your tongue and go back to the cab to try and get some backup and remove the person .

At least he wasnt one of those TM's who stops the job miles from anything so all the passengers have to wait 50 minutes for the police to turn up for some ticketless guy . I mean there will be situations when that has to be done ofc but most can be resolved without massively inconveniencing the rest of the passengers .

IF the TM knew that this guy was planning to get off somewhere with BTP or somewhere BTP could be in time to meet the train then it might be better to keep all of the paing passengers moving on time and the halfwit gets his comeuppance later on .

I know its annoying as a fare paying passenger to see that happening , but it would cost more in fines and delay repay sometimes to stop the job and wait for the police . And then all of the fare paying passengers are getting held up

You have to resist the temptation to crash the arse over the head with the ticket bandit and drag his unconscious meat bag on to the platform and set sail again merrily, regrettably. Try and get police if possible, if not you're pretty much stuck with 'if they won't pay, walk away'. If they're being a serious problem to other passengers though a spine is required to tell any pernicious controllers that you aren't moving until assistance arrives. I've done it and certainly had no comeback bar the request for a written report with was accepted with no negative comment.

Oh for the days when you could just arrange a group of equally uncouth parcels porters with the odd copper for good measure to kick the hell out of them and dump them out on the pavement.

that temptation is sometimes very strong ,no its just about respecting that you are on your own and there is only so much you can and should safely try and do .

I agree though that if things get that bad like fighting or really aggressive behavior there is no comeback on you if you insist on the police attending and sorting the matter out before you move . Any manager or controller that insisted otherwise despite not witnessing the event unfolding like the TM does is not doing their job properly .

You think?
Do you honestly believe the Civil Police are interested in some scroat on a train without a ticket.

Civil police are different everywhere you go , some wont come out even if there is a fight/brawl , and others will come out if someone says boo to a goose

Ive had civil police come out before to deal with someone with no ticket who was mouthing off threatening me and a member of station staff . But because they are civil police they dont do anything about the ticketing they just took him off for a chat and from what station staff told me he was allowed to travel on a later service in a much more polite manner .

 

[PG]

Was there not a video doing the rounds a couple of years back of a guy on a Scottish train kicking a youngster off when he refused to buy a ticket?

IIRC the guy (who forcibly removed) the youngster was another passenger on the train and not a member of staff. Also vaguely recollect the media initially praising the guy as a have-a-go-hero then changing their tune when the youngsters family started bleating on about how he had some medical condition and had suffered through being put off the train.

Wasn't the youngster attempting to use the return portion of a ticket in the wrong direction and whilst the guard and youngster were 'engaged in debate' about the matter the train stopped at a station and some passenger decided enough was enough and frog marched the youngster down the aisle and out the carriage door?

 

[455driver]

IIRC the guy (who forcibly removed) the youngster was another passenger on the train and not a member of staff. Also vaguely recollect the media initially praising the guy as a have-a-go-hero then changing their tune when the youngsters family started bleating on about how he had some medical condition and had suffered through being put off the train.

Wasn't the youngster attempting to use the return portion of a ticket in the wrong direction and whilst the guard and youngster were 'engaged in debate' about the matter the train stopped at a station and some passenger decided enough was enough and frog marched the youngster down the aisle and out the carriage door?

You missed the bit where 'the child' tried to trip up the conductor on several occasions. He was well known to most of the conductors as a complete Ahole!

 

[PG]

You missed the bit where 'the child' tried to trip up the conductor on several occasions....

That'll be because the wee scrote's family 'forgot' to mention it when they went running to the press!

 

[Fincra5]

Personally I tend to try and remove persons from the train. Most will get up and walk off as they know the drill... some will buy tickets. BUT there are sometimes you have to let it go, for your own safety. At the end of the day the Job isn't worth getting assaulted for, especially not for (often) a £2.60 fare.

I like to make it seem like I try for those whom have actually purchased a ticket. It all comes down to judgement.

It seems the TM thought it was best to not eject the passengers for his own, and possible fellow passenger safety.

I have left people on before... and arranged BTP to meet them. Of course BTP aren't always around.

 

[Stigy]

If BTP didn't have the resources the local police could have dealt with him and handed the matter over to BTP later if appropriate.

Again, in a ideal world. Home Office Police are reluctant to get involved for anything short of murder, especially since the Railway has it's own Police service. HO Police don't necessarily 'get' the issues faced by rail staff and the shortage of BTP, but they have their own area to worry about and are often stretched too. I've seen police fail to turn up even after a 999 call before.

Was there no off duty police on this train?

 

[Busaholic]

What are being referred to here as 'civil' or 'Home Office' police are very unlikely to get involved in a matter of ticketing because they would regard this as a 'civil' rather than 'criminal' matter, like someone refusing to pay for a meal in a restaurant. If the diner did a runner that would be one thing, staying and giving some (perhaps cock and bull) story is another: if the police were called, having ascertained the identity and address of the person concerned, it is most unlikely an arrest would be made, unless some sort of physical disorder was involved. The restauranteur could then sue the diner or, more likely, ban them from the restaurant in future and, as they say, live and learn.

 

[Baggypants]

I was on the Manchester to Holyhead train last Friday and an abusive passenger without a ticket got a free ride all the way to St Asaph when the police took him off. Outrageous!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was on the Manchester to Holyhead train last Friday and an abusive passenger without a ticket got a free ride all the way to St Asaph when the police took him off. Outrageous!

If ever a posting made me sit up and take note it was this one, as St Asaph is on the closed Vale of Clwyd line and the railway station there was closed on September 1955, some 59 years ago....hock:

 

[Baggypants]

If ever a posting made me sit up and take note it was this one, as St Asaph is on the closed Vale of Clwyd line and the railway station there was closed on September 1955, some 59 years ago....hock:

Oh wait. What's that one before Colwyn Bay then?

 

[6Gman]

Oh wait. What's that one before Colwyn Bay then?

Abergele & Pensarn?

 

[Baggypants]

Abergele & Pensarn?

I've just realised I've missed a golden "Ghost Train" opportunity.

 

[455driver]

If ever a posting made me sit up and take note it was this one, as St Asaph is on the closed Vale of Clwyd line and the railway station there was closed on September 1955, some 59 years ago....hock:

It just shows how long it can take for some posts to get through on this forum!

 

[reb0118]

............like someone refusing to pay for a meal in a restaurant. If the diner did a runner that would be one thing, staying and giving some (perhaps cock and bull) story is another: if the police were called, having ascertained the identity and address of the person concerned, it is most unlikely an arrest would be made, unless some sort of physical disorder was involved. The restauranteur could then sue the diner or, more likely, ban them from the restaurant in future and, as they say, live and learn.

Well, when taking part in a training scenario at Tulliallan Police Training College this very situation came up. I was called to a restaurant where a couple were refusing to pay for a meal. Initially I told the couple to get their hands in their pockets and pay, but when they refused I took the landlord (who was being played by my training sergeant) aside and informed him that I would obtain details from the couple and give them to him so he could pursue a civil claim if that was acceptable. It certainly was not! The couple were subsequently arrested for Common Law Fraud, and as the matter escalated Breach of the Peace too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly on that matter I understand that if they felt the meal was in some way deficient and paid less than requested, but not zero, it would become a civil matter.

 

[reb0118]

Going OT.

Yes, to be fair that can be the case. That said the onus is on the diner to complain at the earliest opportunity though. In cases like these a settlement is often reached prior to matters escalating. If, however, you clear the plate and then state that you are not paying because you felt the meal was sub standard you do not, normally, have a leg to stand on.

Now, to bring it back to railway matters. If you intend to travel, are travelling, or have travelled then you must either hold a valid ticket or pay at the earliest opportunity - you do not have the option to summarily withhold any part of the fare due because of any perceived poor service from a train operator.

 

[RichardN]

Personally I tend to try and remove persons from the train. Most will get up and walk off as they know the drill... some will buy tickets. BUT there are sometimes you have to let it go, for your own safety. At the end of the day the Job isn't worth getting assaulted for, especially not for (often) a £2.60 fare.

I like to make it seem like I try for those whom have actually purchased a ticket. It all comes down to judgement.

It seems the TM thought it was best to not eject the passengers for his own, and possible fellow passenger safety.

I have left people on before... and arranged BTP to meet them. Of course BTP aren't always around.

If you are the Southern guard called Fin, your customer service is excellent from the point of view of this customer.

 

[Busaholic]

The meek inheriting the earth is as far away as ever. Does the guy with the pit bull get fined for not clearing up the dog mess or the little old lady?