London Bridge - new TT not working?

[bramling]

Your assuming. Come 2018 the two will be separated. The inners will be all stations with the outers being the express until Welwyn GC.

And it is two all stations services, one to Moorgate and another to Thameslink.

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1273/Proposed 2018 Thameslink service pattern.pdf

Let's make this clear, the proposed service on this section is 2tph Tattenham Corner to Cambridge, fast from Finsbury Park to Potters Bar, and sharing the slow lines north of Potters Bar, with a further 2tph Caterham to Welwyn Garden City in the peaks only. The Tattenham Corner to Cambridge service will call at Potters Bar, Hatfield and then all stations north of Welwyn Garden City, this is certainly not 'express', nor 'all stations'.

By current plans this will interwork, on the slow lines, with an aspirational 4tph all stations to Welwyn Garden City off-peak. It doesn't yet appear confirmed whether there will be any further services in the peaks and what form these might take.

I'm unclear if the Caterham service will call at any additional stations, however if so this would require either SDO or platform extensions at certain stations.

So please check your facts, before posting rubbish that doesn't make sense and creating the illusion (to yourself) of having countered a point by replacing it with a completely different proposition.

Regardless of whether these proposals change between now and then, it is quite clear there are going to be additional services on certain constrained sections of line. Looking at the off-peak service: If the Tattenham Corner service uses the fast line south of Potters Bar, this section of track will carry 8tph ex King's Cross and 6 tph ex Thameslink, a total of 14 tph (11 today). The slow line from Potters Bar to Welwyn Garden City will have 4tph ex KX or Moorgate and 2tph ex Thameslink (with two different stopping patterns), the bottleneck from Digswell to Woolmer Green will carry a total of 14 tph (12 today), and most significantly of all the two-track section from Hitchin to Cambridge will carry 6tph (4 today), made up of 3x different stopping patterns, with running times over this stretch varying from approx 18 mins for the fastest services, 30 mins for semi-fast services, and 40 mins for the slowest, based on current running times. Also there will be the additional contraint that the 2 tph King's Cross to Camridge non-stop service will both extend to Kings Lynn, as against only one today. Of course this doesn't include any freight workings that may or may not run.

Regardless of how well planned or achievable the timetable is or isn't, as a matter of routine users will expect their train to turn up on time, and to run on time from day one, so I hope the timetable will be as well tested as allegedly it's going to be.

 

[talltim]

Why is that document on goaheadBUS?
(I originally read it as goa head bus!)

 

[otomous]

I have been commuting from Sevenoaks to Holborn Viaduct since 1948 and it has run perfectly for forty years. Now these terrible people at Network SouthEast want to reopen the Snow Hill Tunnel and send my train through it to Cricklewood! This means that I can't stand in exactly the same place and time at Holborn Viadcut every night to catch my train home and know that my seat will be free! ANYONE could have got on at some godforsaken place like Farringdon and taken MY seat. And what if it's 5 minutes late up there in that strange London Midland region? Will that be allowed for? I've now got to go to Blackfriars, press a button to open the door, someone might have MY seat and it might be late. It's the end of the world.

 

[bramling]

I have been commuting from Sevenoaks to Holborn Viaduct since 1948 and it has run perfectly for forty years. Now these terrible people at Network SouthEast want to reopen the Snow Hill Tunnel and send my train through it to Cricklewood! This means that I can't stand in exactly the same place and time at Holborn Viadcut every night to catch my train home and know that my seat will be free! ANYONE could have got on at some godforsaken place like Farringdon and taken MY seat. And what if it's 5 minutes late up there in that strange London Midland region? Will that be allowed for? I've now got to go to Blackfriars, press a button to open the door, someone might have MY seat and it might be late. It's the end of the world.

Not exactly unreasonable to expect the train to turn up on time though, is it?!

Of course it remains to be seen how the likes of Farringdon will cope when multiple platform groups have to share the same comparatively narrow platform. On the GN side alone, there will be separate half-hourly services for Peterborough, Cambridge (semi-fast) and Cambridge (stopping). I suppose it will be ok if people arrange to turn up just before their train is scheduled, however if large numbers of people decide to turn up speculatively and have to wait 29 mins for their particular train, this will cause issues no matter what mitigation measures are implemented.

 

[Class377/5]

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1273/Proposed 2018 Thameslink service pattern.pdf

Let's make this clear, the proposed service on this section is 2tph Tattenham Corner to Cambridge, fast from Finsbury Park to Potters Bar, and sharing the slow lines north of Potters Bar, with a further 2tph Caterham to Welwyn Garden City in the peaks only. The Tattenham Corner to Cambridge service will call at Potters Bar, Hatfield and then all stations north of Welwyn Garden City, this is certainly not 'express', nor 'all stations'.

By current plans this will interwork, on the slow lines, with an aspirational 4tph all stations to Welwyn Garden City off-peak. It doesn't yet appear confirmed whether there will be any further services in the peaks and what form these might take.

I'm unclear if the Caterham service will call at any additional stations, however if so this would require either SDO or platform extensions at certain stations.

So please check your facts, before posting rubbish that doesn't make sense and creating the illusion (to yourself) of having countered a point by replacing it with a completely different proposition.

Regardless of whether these proposals change between now and then, it is quite clear there are going to be additional services on certain constrained sections of line. Looking at the off-peak service: If the Tattenham Corner service uses the fast line south of Potters Bar, this section of track will carry 8tph ex King's Cross and 6 tph ex Thameslink, a total of 14 tph (11 today). The slow line from Potters Bar to Welwyn Garden City will have 4tph ex KX or Moorgate and 2tph ex Thameslink (with two different stopping patterns), the bottleneck from Digswell to Woolmer Green will carry a total of 14 tph (12 today), and most significantly of all the two-track section from Hitchin to Cambridge will carry 6tph (4 today), made up of 3x different stopping patterns, with running times over this stretch varying from approx 18 mins for the fastest services, 30 mins for semi-fast services, and 40 mins for the slowest, based on current running times. Also there will be the additional contraint that the 2 tph King's Cross to Camridge non-stop service will both extend to Kings Lynn, as against only one today. Of course this doesn't include any freight workings that may or may not run.

Regardless of how well planned or achievable the timetable is or isn't, as a matter of routine users will expect their train to turn up on time, and to run on time from day one, so I hope the timetable will be as well tested as allegedly it's going to be.

Will point out that your assuming that because stations aren't on there, trains don't call. Caterham for example will be all stations using SDO.

Currently its not publicly known what the GN services will be, just the TL ones. Lots of time for any changes but the timetable has been developed and run through to ensure it can cope with the load. That's something that has already happened with GTR and NR looking at pinch points more closely to ensure right time running.

The basic problem with your post is your are not aware of the changes now being put into place. The structure of the railway is being changed to ensure there is a focus on getting performance right. Its not going to be the same for signallers, controllers or front line staff.

 

[bramling]

Will point out that your assuming that because stations aren't on there, trains don't call. Caterham for example will be all stations using SDO.

Currently its not publicly known what the GN services will be, just the TL ones. Lots of time for any changes but the timetable has been developed and run through to ensure it can cope with the load. That's something that has already happened with GTR and NR looking at pinch points more closely to ensure right time running.

The basic problem with your post is your are not aware of the changes now being put into place. The structure of the railway is being changed to ensure there is a focus on getting performance right. Its not going to be the same for signallers, controllers or front line staff.

I didn't ask for an opinion on the post - I'm fully aware that not all station calls are shown on the maps, after all it's clearly stated on the document in question. So please don't make assumptions to suit your own agenda.

What was posted is plain facts. It is basically confirmed that the Tattenham Corner-Cambridge service will utilise the stopping pattern as described. Stakeholder input has been very clear that the current stopping pattern south of Hitchin should be retained as this offers a limited-stop London service from the likes of Welwyn GC, Hatfield and Potters Bar, which are all busy stations. This pattern has been established for many years, presumably because it most suitably meets customer requirements, catering for as many through journeys as possible whilst maintaining a competitive journey time. Certainly I find it hard to envisage any alternative which better meets all the stakeholder requirements -- with your extensive knowledge of this part of the network, can you?

What I can see is few if any changes being planned for the track layout, which is the biggest constraint affecting the current timetable, let alone one with additional services and a greater risk of imported delays. The only facility that I can see being relevant is the additional platform at Stevenage allowing the Hertford service to come off the down slow. No additional tracks on the Cambridge line, meanwhile you are assuming that the additional measures you describe will solve this and other issues, the measures described are untried and untested.

 

[Class377/5]

I didn't ask for an opinion on the post - I'm fully aware that not all station calls are shown on the maps, after all it's clearly stated on the document in question. So please don't make assumptions to suit your own agenda.

What was posted is plain facts. It is basically confirmed that the Tattenham Corner-Cambridge service will utilise the stopping pattern as described. Stakeholder input has been very clear that the current stopping pattern south of Hitchin should be retained as this offers a limited-stop London service from the likes of Welwyn GC, Hatfield and Potters Bar, which are all busy stations. This pattern has been established for many years, presumably because it most suitably meets customer requirements, catering for as many through journeys as possible whilst maintaining a competitive journey time. Certainly I find it hard to envisage any alternative which better meets all the stakeholder requirements -- with your extensive knowledge of this part of the network, can you?

What I can see is few if any changes being planned for the track layout, which is the biggest constraint affecting the current timetable, let alone one with additional services and a greater risk of imported delays. The only facility that I can see being relevant is the additional platform at Stevenage allowing the Hertford service to come off the down slow. No additional tracks on the Cambridge line, meanwhile you are assuming that the additional measures you describe will solve this and other issues, the measures described are untried and untested.

Show me where the stopping pattern is actually shown please if its fact. The map doesn't count as it doesn't show full calling patterns. Otherwise your making assumptions.

If I'm honest I haven't seen the rebuilt GN/ECML timetable in full. Am aware of the changes (such as a second Cambridge being added to Thameslink) for sometime.

The new timetable has been tested in the standard industry ways via the computer modelling so its not untested.

I'm not assuming additional measures, I've seem them and will be using them over the next few years as they are introduced.

 

[Bishopstone]

My 07.42 from Lewes, which until August was scheduled to arrive at 08.50, and then became 08.55 for a few weeks, is now timetabled for 08.57. We rolled in at 09.09 this morning.

I have noticed a change in regulation. Anything with a booked return passenger working - eg the 08.56 arrival from Uckfield - is prioritised in acceptance into London Bridge. Unfortunately, my train from Lewes goes ECS to Streatham, so is platformed without regard to timetable sequence. I wish they would just bow to reality and add ten minutes to the timetabled arrival time of everything in the peak.

 

[43074]

I have found a consultation document for the December 2015 Brighton Main Line recast, including a sample hour from the proposed 2015 Off Peak timetable in Appendix 1 (note this mainly covers changes South of the river) if anyone's interested and hasn't seen it already: