Abusive passengers without tickets allowed free travel?

[1e10]

About 2 weeks ago I was travelling on an XC service from Bristol TM to Manchester Picc on a Monday evening. A passenger boarded at Bristol TM with his girlfriend into coach B of a Voyager unit and immediately starting swearing to himself about his apparent seat reservation not being displayed on the electronic reservation display (this was a Voyager set where seats in coach B can't be reserved) and dropping comments to other passengers such as 'you should be in first class, ****ing snob'.

En-route the TM made a ticket check between B'Parkway and C'Spa, guess what? This duo had no ticket and 0 intention of purchasing one. The TM told the duo they'd need to purchase a ticket (2 adult singles, no rail cards, Bristol TM to Wolverhampton) and the guy told the TM he had about a fiver on him, no card and so wasn't able to purchase a ticket. The TM continued in conversation with this guy whilst he's getting more irate by the second, rightly trying to get the fare out of him. During this time the guy repeatedly swore at the TM, telling him to 'f'off' and all sorts. Some other passengers tried to intervene and asked him to keep the noise/swearing down, this guy stood up and was squaring up with them in the aisle whilst issuing threats of violence.

The TM somehow managed to persuade this looney to speak with him in the vestibule where the TM made some sort of arrangement for this guy to travel between Bristol TM to Wolverhampton without paying a penny. He also persuaded the duo to move to another carriage, though through the remainder of the journey this guy walked up and down the length of the train for no apparent reason 'accidentally' bumping into the passengers he had earlier had the little scuffle with.

The purpose of this post I guess it to ask whether it's standard procedure to allow passengers displaying this behaviour to have a free ride? Especially when the rest of the train is full of fare paying passengers having to listen to and put up with the abusive behaviour from the guy involved. Personally I'd like to have seen him removed from the train at C'Spa.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe they were getting met at Wolverhampton by members of the BTP who would like a quiet word.

 

[Hadders]

In an ideal world the passenger would be met by the BTP at the next stop and dealt with by them.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. BTP would probably be unable/unwilling to attend due to a lack of resources plus I doubt they see ticketless travel as one of their priorities.

The Train Manager's priority is to keep everyone on board safe and keep delays to the train to a minimum. Consequently although it's unpalatable to law abiding citizens for someone to have a free ride in these circumstances I believe the TM has done the right thing.

 

[TOCDriver]

In an ideal world the passenger would be met by the BTP at the next stop and dealt with by them.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. BTP would probably be unable/unwilling to attend due to a lack of resources plus I doubt they see ticketless travel as one of their priorities.

The Train Manager's priority is to keep everyone on board safe and keep delays to the train to a minimum. Consequently although it's unpalatable to law abiding citizens for someone to have a free ride in these circumstances I believe the TM has done the right thing.

I would bet my right arm that the BTP would be there to greet them come the next major stop. A good TM would make them think they have got away with it until the police step on board and greet them. This is particularly true on long distance journeys. And time keeping does not come into it if health and safety is or could be compromised. But, like I say, a canny TM would satisfy both if they do their job as they're trained to do.

 

[Rich McLean]

About 2 weeks ago I was travelling on an XC service from Bristol TM to Manchester Picc on a Monday evening. A passenger boarded at Bristol TM with his girlfriend into coach B of a Voyager unit and immediately starting swearing to himself about his apparent seat reservation not being displayed on the electronic reservation display (this was a Voyager set where seats in coach B can't be reserved) and dropping comments to other passengers such as 'you should be in first class, ****ing snob'.

En-route the TM made a ticket check between B'Parkway and C'Spa, guess what? This duo had no ticket and 0 intention of purchasing one. The TM told the duo they'd need to purchase a ticket (2 adult singles, no rail cards, Bristol TM to Wolverhampton) and the guy told the TM he had about a fiver on him, no card and so wasn't able to purchase a ticket. The TM continued in conversation with this guy whilst he's getting more irate by the second, rightly trying to get the fare out of him. During this time the guy repeatedly swore at the TM, telling him to 'f'off' and all sorts. Some other passengers tried to intervene and asked him to keep the noise/swearing down, this guy stood up and was squaring up with them in the aisle whilst issuing threats of violence.

The TM somehow managed to persuade this looney to speak with him in the vestibule where the TM made some sort of arrangement for this guy to travel between Bristol TM to Wolverhampton without paying a penny. He also persuaded the duo to move to another carriage, though through the remainder of the journey this guy walked up and down the length of the train for no apparent reason 'accidentally' bumping into the passengers he had earlier had the little scuffle with.

The purpose of this post I guess it to ask whether it's standard procedure to allow passengers displaying this behaviour to have a free ride? Especially when the rest of the train is full of fare paying passengers having to listen to and put up with the abusive behaviour from the guy involved. Personally I'd like to have seen him removed from the train at C'Spa.

Train Crew in the main are repeatedly told to avoid confrontation with irate passengers, and basically give them what they want (within reason) until they can be met at a suitable location by Revenue and the BTP. It also avoids Tea & Biscuit meetings with managers. In some cases on FGW, train crew have been given a disciplinary hearing after it was found that a passenger hit the TM after the TM demanded payment for a ticket to an abusive passenger instead of walking away. Management see it this way as you could also be putting other passengers at risk

The TM did the right thing

 

[Antman]

I've seen similar when gobsh*ts like him get a free ride, I suspect the guard was trying to move him to another carriage so that other passengers didn't know that he hadn't paid?

Could the TM not have called the police and have them meet the train at the next scheduled stop and haul this odious individual off and put him in a cell for the night?

 

[jon0844]

Over the years I've seen plenty of examples of rude and aggressive passengers without tickets being let off because an RPI is on his or her own. They may then make a note of what happened, including a description, but nobody came to meet them later. Same happens when people get irate with a line RPI after being caught in first class.

If revenue staff will let those people off, there's no way a TM is going to get involved and risk delays or injury.

 

[Antman]

In an ideal world the passenger would be met by the BTP at the next stop and dealt with by them.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. BTP would probably be unable/unwilling to attend due to a lack of resources plus I doubt they see ticketless travel as one of their priorities.

The Train Manager's priority is to keep everyone on board safe and keep delays to the train to a minimum. Consequently although it's unpalatable to law abiding citizens for someone to have a free ride in these circumstances I believe the TM has done the right thing.

If BTP didn't have the resources the local police could have dealt with him and handed the matter over to BTP later if appropriate.

 

[ECML180]

I know resources are stretched in both local and BTP forces but in my opinion it is important that the police do meet the train and remove the passenger, in cases such as this one where aggression is displayed. Ticketless travel is a comparitively minor issue but rewarding aggressive people with free journeys will still encourage them to do it again. Well done to the TM in this case for diffusing the situation (to some extent).

 

[Class377]

If BTP did meet him, and details were taken, could we expect a post in the Disputes forum soon?

 

[455driver]

As already stated, the TM probably moved mr git to a known location on the train away from the other passengers to stop them wading in and then mr git would have been met at a station further down the line 'for a chat' with plod.
TMs do like to play the long game and its worth letting mr git win the battle to make sure the TM wins the war!

 

[Searle]

If BTP did meet him, and details were taken, could we expect a post in the Disputes forum soon?

I would love to see their version of events!

"I was acting perfectly reasonably and the jobsworth TM got me arrested!"

 

[martynbristow]

I think the original post was partly to do with the perception by other passengers.
I think it's right that everyone's saftey was maintained and no one got hurt
But!
If They were let off or not it doesn't send a chilling warning that fare evasion or bad attitude isn't tolerated.

If BTP don't have the resource maybe the penalty fares should go up

 

[Mag_seven]

Since BTM has barriers I wonder how they got on the platform ticket-less in the first place?

 

[Antman]

I think the original post was partly to do with the perception by other passengers.
I think it's right that everyone's saftey was maintained and no one got hurt
But!
If They were let off or not it doesn't send a chilling warning that fare evasion or bad attitude isn't tolerated.

If BTP don't have the resource maybe the penalty fares should go up

But in a case like this you would need a police presence to obtain details etc for a penalty fare

 

[Rich McLean]

Since BTM has barriers I wonder how they got on the platform ticket-less in the first place?

An example: Boarded a stopper at Parson Street, then changed at BTM, giving the Guard no time to sell a ticket and no need to pass through the barriers

 

[VisualAcid]

Since BTM has barriers I wonder how they got on the platform ticket-less in the first place?

Tail-gating is incredibly easy when it's busy through the wide gates (not that I've done it). Funnily enough it was 2 people travelling without tickets on XC , they'd hid in the toilets the whole time

 

[londiscape]

I think the original post was partly to do with the perception by other passengers.
I think it's right that everyone's saftey was maintained and no one got hurt
But!
If They were let off or not it doesn't send a chilling warning that fare evasion or bad attitude isn't tolerated.

If BTP don't have the resource maybe the penalty fares should go up

No. Just no. Penalty fares are for people making innocent mistakes. There is no way that it could be justifiable for innocent people to be made to pay for the guilty contingent who repeatedly get away with it because they "don't have the resource".

This isn't (well not primarily) "fare evasion" or "bad attitude" it's criminal disorderly and potentially violent behaviour, which should be treated as such.

Aggressive behaviour including swearing, which is described in the subject of the OP, is a breach of Section 5 Public Order and should be met with either BTP or regular police, as it is not an offence unique to railways either can do it. If he was intoxicated then whack in D&D as well. Did he threaten the guard or other passengers with violence? If so I'm sure common assault would cover that, even if threats were not carried through. Either way scumbag + scumette should be spending the night in the cells and a nice criminal record should await at the mags court.

No criticism of the guard, by the way. I just hope he made a discreet call to BTP when out of scumbag's earshot to meet the train at next station.

 

[1e10]

Since BTM has barriers I wonder how they got on the platform ticket-less in the first place?

Somewhere in his endless rant he mentioned he had travelled in from Chippenham.

To clarify this indivdual was on the train all the way through to Wolverhampton.

 

[Antman]

No. Just no. Penalty fares are for people making innocent mistakes. There is no way that it could be justifiable for innocent people to be made to pay for the guilty contingent who repeatedly get away with it because they "don't have the resource".

This isn't (well not primarily) "fare evasion" or "bad attitude" it's criminal disorderly and potentially violent behaviour, which should be treated as such.

Aggressive behaviour including swearing, which is described in the subject of the OP, is a breach of Section 5 Public Order and should be met with either BTP or regular police, as it is not an offence unique to railways either can do it. If he was intoxicated then whack in D&D as well. Did he threaten the guard or other passengers with violence? If so I'm sure common assault would cover that, even if threats were not carried through. Either way scumbag + scumette should be spending the night in the cells and a nice criminal record should await at the mags court.

No criticism of the guard, by the way. I just hope he made a discreet call to BTP when out of scumbag's earshot to meet the train at next station.

Exactly, at very least he deserved a night in a cell and an £80 fixed penalty.

 

[tony6499]

I'm sure on a lengthy journey such as this one it is quite easy to get police assistance , not so when they are only going a couple of stops for less than 5 minutes and then you've got no chance and very little you can do to stop free travel as a Conductor/TM

 

[455driver]

I'm sure on a lengthy journey such as this one it is quite easy to get police assistance , not so when they are only going a couple of stops for less than 5 minutes and then you've got no chance and very little you can do to stop free travel as a Conductor/TM

You think?
Do you honestly believe the Civil Police are interested in some scroat on a train without a ticket.

 

[martynbristow]

You think?
Do you honestly believe the Civil Police are interested in some scroat on a train without a ticket.

I'm not disputing you, I've had similar comments from the police about more serious crimes.

But when do we draw the line :/

Of course its not as serious as other crimes but clearly the police are either under resourced or over worked

 

[RPI]

Train Crew in the main are repeatedly told to avoid confrontation with irate passengers, and basically give them what they want (within reason) until they can be met at a suitable location by Revenue and the BTP. It also avoids Tea & Biscuit meetings with managers. In some cases on FGW, train crew have been given a disciplinary hearing after it was found that a passenger hit the TM after the TM demanded payment for a ticket to an abusive passenger instead of walking away. Management see it this way as you could also be putting other passengers at risk

The TM did the right thing

I work for FGW and have for over 10 years and have often been assaulted for trying to get a fare from idiots like this and have always had 110% support from the company, each time I have followed procedure and not put myself at excessive risk but have never heard of anyone getting a disciplinary unless they have assaulted the passenger! The TM may have issued a UFN in this case, may have gotten BTP to meet the train at Birmingham which logically would be the next best place, but overall the TM seemed to have stopped the situation escalating into a riot which ultimately is their top priority.

 

[jon0844]

I've been on trains with calls for off duty police and every time it's happened there has been one!

 

[Rich McLean]

I work for FGW and have for over 10 years and have often been assaulted for trying to get a fare from idiots like this and have always had 110% support from the company, each time I have followed procedure and not put myself at excessive risk but have never heard of anyone getting a disciplinary unless they have assaulted the passenger! The TM may have issued a UFN in this case, may have gotten BTP to meet the train at Birmingham which logically would be the next best place, but overall the TM seemed to have stopped the situation escalating into a riot which ultimately is their top priority.

If I remember rightly, the TM in question "touched" the passenger in an attempt to restrain the evader. This was a few years back however.

 

[trainophile]

You think?
Do you honestly believe the Civil Police are interested in some scroat on a train without a ticket.

It's not just the fare dodging though, it's using threatening behaviour in a public place.

Tricky one, as with that attitude who's to know whether he's on some sort of substance, and/or has a knife in his pocket?

 

[LowLevel]

You have to resist the temptation to crash the arse over the head with the ticket bandit and drag his unconscious meat bag on to the platform and set sail again merrily, regrettably. Try and get police if possible, if not you're pretty much stuck with 'if they won't pay, walk away'. If they're being a serious problem to other passengers though a spine is required to tell any pernicious controllers that you aren't moving until assistance arrives. I've done it and certainly had no comeback bar the request for a written report with was accepted with no negative comment.

Oh for the days when you could just arrange a group of equally uncouth parcels porters with the odd copper for good measure to kick the hell out of them and dump them out on the pavement.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Oh for the days when you could just arrange a group of equally uncouth parcels porters with the odd copper for good measure to kick the hell out of them and dump them out on the pavement.

Thank the maker those days are over.

 

[LowLevel]

I was waiting for that although not expecting the 'God' reference The gap in paragraphs denotes the end of my serious comment and the beginning of wistful thinking about not every minor issue requiring a constable and 4000 pages of notes. Simple - man being an arse on train, won't pay, being abusive - answer - overpower him and remove him, quickly, thus allowing peaceful law abiding folk to continue forth. Unfortunately his rights are considered important despite his lack of respect for everyone else's.