Missed 14 day deadline to respond

[Ginger3]

After a 30 mins late, packed Northern Rail train and an inspector with a broken card machine at the station I stupidly decided to get my ticket on the way back rather than stand around at the station booths and get even more late. (There are no ticket machines at my inital station)

Got caught, had to give a statement etc etc. I know I was in the wrong but was so late and harrassed. I was completely honest.

I have only just received my initial letter today because I have moved house in the interim period. The 14 days to respond with my explanation has passed - it was yesterday!

So what happens now? I have tried to phone to no avail. Will they take into account my moving house and give me a few days grace? Or will this now go straight to court? I can't get the letter in the post till Monday (It is Saturday today)

I accept I am in the wrong and am in such a panic about getting a criminal record. That stupid last minute decision to walk out of the station could now ruin my life.

FYI this is my first offence and I am a regular rail user who has previously spent £242 a month for a year on season tickets.

Advice so appreciated,

From a panicked and miserable lady

 

[DelayRepay]

Someone more experienced than me will be along soon but my advice would be try not to worry too much at this stage. If I was you, I would send my response by Special Delivery (guaranteed to arrive on Tuesday morning if you post it on Monday) and I would also send an email. The chances are it will be ok.

Even if they do issue a court summons it may well be possible to negotiate an out of court settlement if that is what you wish to do.

So take a deep breath and relax, and check back later for one of the more experienced members' view.

 

[Ginger3]

Thank you for your kind response DelayRepay.

I have sent an email explaining what has happened with the delay but the only email address I could find begins with 'PPN' which I think is to do with parking!

I emailed them anyway!

 

[najaB]

After a 30 mins late, packed Northern Rail train...

There's no guarantee about it, but often Northern Rail will offer to settle out of court for first offences. The typical settlement amount is £80, and will close the matter without leaving any criminal record. As DelayRepay suggested, contact them as soon as possible and explain that you have moved house, I'd be surprised if they didn't accept your explanation.

 

[Ginger3]

najaB, thank you also for your response.

I hope you are right! I would normally be so annoyed at myself for having to pay that amount of money but to be honest I have got into such a flap about getting a record that I don't care!

 

[Crossover]

The difference between a single ticket and a return is 10 pence so I didn't think it was a big deal.(

As a bit of advice - don't mention this in any response to the TOC!

 

[Ginger3]

Didn't sleep for worrying about this. I have drafted my letter, explaining why it is late. I will send it via Special Delivery tomorrow.

 

[yorkie]

The difference between a single ticket and a return is 10 pence so I didn't think it was a big deal.

10p is a huge deal to Northern if they're losing out - they have prosecuted over avoidance of paying 10p before, and they can do because it's a criminal offence, the severity of which varies depending on whether there was evidence of intent or not.

On 16 June 2014, a forum member encountered a Guard who attempted to avoid payment of 7p to a passenger, however the laws are very much worded against the passenger, so it's far more serious when a passenger underpays by a few pence, and Northern aren't likely to dismiss the matter because it's a small amount. It would, in fact, be arguably less serious to have shoplifted for a much larger sum, in terms of the legislation and the seriousness of the consequences, as railway laws are very strict indeed - far stricter than most passengers realise!

By your wording above, it suggests you thought about, and intended, to deprive the railway of 10p. If you confirmed this in a statement, Northern have evidence of intent and therefore are more likely to prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act, rather than the Railway Byelaws.

It would, therefore, be wise to settle the matter out of court, apologising for the original incident and the delay in responding. We cannot say what sum Northern would settle for, that would be up to them to decide, and would depend on the available evidence. There is still time to settle!

 

[Haywain]

The problem with that 10p is that having saved it travelling in one direction, there is a good chance that you will then go ahead and save it travelling in the opposite direction. This is the problem with ticketless travel - those who do it once are likely to do it (or have done it) more than once. The saving of 10p because of running late on the way to work is not so trivial if there is potential for looking at the journey home in the same light.

 

[Ginger3]

Hi, thanks for your responses.

I have clarified in my response letter that I was wrong in what I did. Any intent was a spur of the moment thing.

You have scared me again now, I was just starting to calm myself down!

Is it likely they will prosecute? This is a first offence. I am hoping that due to this I will get a Penalty Notice?

It certainly teaches you a lesson doesn't it :cry:

 

[najaB]

You have scared me again now, I was just starting to calm myself down!

Is it likely they will prosecute? This is a first offence. I am hoping that due to this I will get a Penalty Notice?

You definitely won't get a 'Penalty Notice' as (a) they can't be issued after the fact, and (b) Northern Rail don't operate a Penalty Fare scheme anyway.

It's impossible to say if they will or won't prosecute however, given that it's a first offence and that you have written to admit your guilt and apologise, I would be surprised if they do. Based on previous threads on this site it would be typical Northern behaviour to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[yorkie]

This is a first offence. I am hoping that due to this I will get a Penalty Notice?

Northern sometimes offer an out of court settlement, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do in this case but there are no guarantees. They might call this a 'penalty notice' if so, but legally it is nothing more than an out of court settlement. However there's nothing to stop you approaching Northern asking if the matter can be settled out of court. Either way, I would recommend settling with Northern.

 

[najaB]

To echo what Yorkie said, there's nothing stopping you asking Northern if you can save them the expense of a prosecution by paying any outstanding fare and making a contribution to the costs they have incurred so far.

 

[Ginger3]

Thank you for your responses.

I have stated in my letter that I am willing to pay costs etc.

I'm a real worrier and realise that I have basically no leg to stand on with this. What is to stop them prosecuting?

I can't actually believe I did something so stupid. First time ever and now look where it has left me! Urgh :cry:

 

[yorkie]

I'm a real worrier and realise that I have basically no leg to stand on with this. What is to stop them prosecuting?

You can't stop them as such, but if a settlement is reached, their costs (and yours) are kept to a minimum, and the agreed amount goes directly to Northern.

If they do not agree to settle, any fine imposed by a court would not go to Northern.

So it is in their interest (as well as yours) to settle.

I've heard of cases that sound not too dissimilar to yours, and Northern have agreed to settle.

But really we can't predict these things as we don't know the details.

 

[Ginger3]

Updating to let you all know I received a Fixed Penalty Notice for £87.40 which is a fine of £80 and the cost of my ticket.

Thank you to all of those that posted and reassured me. What a horrible, panicky time.

It just ain't worth it,folks!!!! Think before you make rash decisions!!!!!!

 

[najaB]

Updating to let you all know I received a Fixed Penalty Notice for £87.40 which is a fine of £80 and the cost of my ticket.

Thank you to all of those that posted and reassured me. What a horrible, panicky time.

It just ain't worth it,folks!!!! Think before you make rash decisions!!!!!!

Thanks for the update, I'm glad to hear that it's been settled without having to go through the courts.

Out of curiosity, did Northern actually call it a fixed penalty notice or is that how you've described it?

 

[Ginger3]

Thanks for the update, I'm glad to hear that it's been settled without having to go through the courts.

Out of curiosity, did Northern actually call it a fixed penalty notice or is that how you've described it?

Thank you, najaB.

It says 'FIXED PENALTY NOTICE' at the top of the letter.

In the body of the letter it says 'This notice offers you the opportunity of discharging any liability to conviction for that offence by payment of a fixed penalty of £80.'

 

[najaB]

Thank you, najaB.

It says 'FIXED PENALTY NOTICE' at the top of the letter.

In the body of the letter it says 'This notice offers you the opportunity of discharging any liability to conviction for that offence by payment of a fixed penalty of £80.'

Thanks for that. I was curious if they called them Fixed Penalty Notices or not.

Once again, I'm really glad that you can put this behind you and forget the experience - but not the lesson!