Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[ert47]

Turbostars need a whole lot less 'overhauling' than 319s, or does 'overhaul' now mean, 'revinyl'. Any news on what is to replace them at Scotrail?

I dont believe that Scotrails 170s and Southerns 171s have the same couplers. :?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I dont believe that Scotrails 170s and Southerns 171s have the same couplers. :?

That's correct, 170s have BSI couplers (same as 14x/15x), whereas 171s have Scharfenbergs (sp?) to allow them to rescue or be rescued by 377s. I'd expect the Scottish 170s to be refitted to the same standard as the existing fleet, including changing the couplers. How the sets are then organised is anyone's guess, much like the TPE 170s once Chiltern have 'purloined' them.

 

[92002]

That's correct, 170s have BSI couplers (same as 14x/15x), whereas 171s have Scharfenbergs (sp?) to allow them to rescue or be rescued by 377s. I'd expect the Scottish 170s to be refitted to the same standard as the existing fleet, including changing the couplers. How the sets are then organised is anyone's guess, much like the TPE 170s once Chiltern have 'purloined' them.

Don't hold your breath for any transfers.

Nothing new expected till 2017.

 

[TheJRB]

I dont believe that Scotrails 170s and Southerns 171s have the same couplers. :?

That's correct, 170s have BSI couplers (same as 14x/15x), whereas 171s have Scharfenbergs (sp?) to allow them to rescue or be rescued by 377s. I'd expect the Scottish 170s to be refitted to the same standard as the existing fleet, including changing the couplers. How the sets are then organised is anyone's guess, much like the TPE 170s once Chiltern have 'purloined' them.

Southern's 171s and 377s (also Southeastern's 375s and 376s) have Dellner couplers.

On a slightly unrelated but still interesting note, early 375s were built with tightlock couplers but were later converted to Dellner as the slam doors disappeared. Southern's three car 375s were renumbered 377s when this happened but Southeastern's were not!

 

[childwallblues]

All this talk of transfers of units to Southern does not solve the more pressing question of what is to replace the 170/3 at TPE.
The latest "rumour" that I have heard is the return south of 158782/86/89 158867-71 which were destined for Northern but "borrowed" by Scotrail some years ago. If this rumour is indeed true Scotrail are surely not going to release 170s as well are they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern's 171s and 377s (also Southeastern's 375s and 376s) have Dellner couplers.

What the UK industry usually refers to as 'Dellner couplers' are latch type couplers to Scharfenberg design, but manufactured by Dellner.

'Voith Turbo Scharfenberg' also manufacturer them, these normally get referred to as Scharfenberg couplers.

Apparently Dellner pay a licence fee to manufacture their version, which is fully mechanically compatible. Both Dellner and Scharfenberg have subtypes 10, 12 and 330 in common use. That cannot be a coincidence. As always though, it is the ancillary electrical and air connection box that usually decides full compatibility.

RSSBs standard on coupler compatibility etc considers 'Dellner' and 'Scharfenberg' as the same couplers.

 

[physics34]

What the UK industry usually refers to as 'Dellner couplers' are latch type couplers to Scharfenberg design, but manufactured by Dellner.

'Voith Turbo Scharfenberg' also manufacturer them, these normally get referred to as Scharfenberg couplers.

Apparently Dellner pay a licence fee to manufacture their version, which is fully mechanically compatible. Both Dellner and Scharfenberg have subtypes 10, 12 and 330 in common use. That cannot be a coincidence. As always though, it is the ancillary electrical and air connection box that usually decides full compatibility.

RSSBs standard on coupler compatibility etc considers 'Dellner' and 'Scharfenberg' as the same couplers.

Dellner is easy to say

 

[swt_passenger]

Dellner is easy to say

Probably a lot to do with it in truth...

 

[northwichcat]

All this talk of transfers of units to Southern does not solve the more pressing question of what is to replace the 170/3 at TPE.
The latest "rumour" that I have heard is the return south of 158782/86/89 158867-71 which were destined for Northern but "borrowed" by Scotrail some years ago. If this rumour is indeed true Scotrail are surely not going to release 170s as well are they?

Tony Miles posted on wnxx that TPE have agreed a deal for replacement rolling stock for the 170/3s but aren't able to unveil details yet.

 

[TheJRB]

What the UK industry usually refers to as 'Dellner couplers' are latch type couplers to Scharfenberg design, but manufactured by Dellner.

'Voith Turbo Scharfenberg' also manufacturer them, these normally get referred to as Scharfenberg couplers.

Apparently Dellner pay a licence fee to manufacture their version, which is fully mechanically compatible. Both Dellner and Scharfenberg have subtypes 10, 12 and 330 in common use. That cannot be a coincidence. As always though, it is the ancillary electrical and air connection box that usually decides full compatibility.

RSSBs standard on coupler compatibility etc considers 'Dellner' and 'Scharfenberg' as the same couplers.

Ah, sorry then. I wasn't aware of that! So I wonder if a 395 could couple to a 375 (provided the couplers align).

 

[170401]

If it is four 170s, then that lends weight to the theory that they would be 170393-396. Presumably they will follow 170392 becoming 171730 and be renumbered as 171s.

I'd be surprised at this move given that Transport Scotland have recently paid for them to be refurbished. I'd have thought any moves would more likely to have come form 170401-424 which haven't been (and aren't planned to be) refurbished. Also given the rumours of class 158s moving to TPE next year, something will have to move North as I doubt Scotrail could sustain the loss of 12 units until more electrification takes place and new emu's/hsts start to arrive.

Of course all of this is just rumour and speculation and given that Abellio haven't signed the Scotrail contract yet (More speculation hints at a legal challenge), it could all go pear shaped pretty quickly.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd be surprised at this move given that Transport Scotland have recently paid for them to be refurbished. I'd have thought any moves would more likely to have come form 170401-424 which haven't been (and aren't planned to be) refurbished. Also given the rumours of class 158s moving to TPE next year, something will have to move North as I doubt Scotrail could sustain the loss of 12 units until more electrification takes place and new emu's/hsts start to arrive.

Of course all of this is just rumour and speculation and given that Abellio haven't signed the Scotrail contract yet (More speculation hints at a legal challenge), it could all go pear shaped pretty quickly.

I thought there were both 158s and 170s in the Scotrail fleet hasn't been refurbished to the same standard as the rest of the fleet.

 

[Class83]

I thought there were both 158s and 170s in the Scotrail fleet hasn't been refurbished to the same standard as the rest of the fleet.

There are, but the 170s are in a bit better condition, presumably as their original fittings are still newer, some of the Scotrail 158s make you think you're on Northern Rail.

 

[northwichcat]

There are, but the 170s are in a bit better condition, presumably as their original fittings are still newer, some of the Scotrail 158s make you think you're on Northern Rail.

Well 8 of them were acquired for Northern Rail before they 'temporarily' went to Scotrail. Presumably that's the reason why they didn't get the full refurbishment.

 

[deltic08]

All this talk of transfers of units to Southern does not solve the more pressing question of what is to replace the 170/3 at TPE.
The latest "rumour" that I have heard is the return south of 158782/86/89 158867-71 which were destined for Northern but "borrowed" by Scotrail some years ago. If this rumour is indeed true Scotrail are surely not going to release 170s as well are they?

With three electrification projects completed recently in Scotland surely Northern could have three or four of these 158s? Better late than never.

 

[N Levers]

I make it 10x2 and 6x4. Add in 4x3, gives scope for:

16x3
4x2

This would allow 2x 10 car formations for the peaks, although at the risk of requiring all the 2 car units to be in traffic.

Perhaps we're more likely to see the 3 car units reformed into 4 cars to give

8x4
12x2

This would allow more 10 car trains to be formed up, and might allow at least some of the Ashford-Brighton trains to be made up of either 1x4 or 2x2, although without working out potential diagrams this could be asking too much. It might work is Ashford-Brighton was cut back to Ashford-Eastbourne however.

The other possibility is the Scotrail ones stay as they are and work Ashford-Brighton, allowing the 2-car units to be added to Uckfield diagrams.

Whichever way it ends up, it's all a bit messy as there's a lot of space being wasted with too many driving cabs and more toilets than required. They would be better with just 3-car and 4-car units, but they would need quite a few more centre cars to make all the 2-cars up to 3.

AFAIK no extra 170/171s will be used to lengthen the Brighton to Ashford services. They will stay in London for the Uckfield service only.

 

[TheJRB]

AFAIK no extra 170/171s will be used to lengthen the Brighton to Ashford services. They will stay in London for the Uckfield service only.

It would be silly for some Ashford to Brighton trains not to be lengthened on weekends when those trains are busier and the Uckfield line is quieter.

 

[bramling]

AFAIK no extra 170/171s will be used to lengthen the Brighton to Ashford services. They will stay in London for the Uckfield service only.

<sigh> Thought as much. Something needs to be done with Brighton to Ashford though as the overcrowding on that service is intolerable right through the day, as well as being a long distance with a diesel train over electrified line. I believe at one point Brighton to Eastbourne was proposed to be worked separately, did this proposal ever develop?

It's all very well extending a small number of peak-hour Uckfield services, which is fair enough as well, but I'd have put the Brighton to Ashford service as more of a priority, even if it doesn't involve commuters!

 

[TheJRB]

<sigh> Thought as much. Something needs to be done with Brighton to Ashford though as the overcrowding on that service is intolerable right through the day, as well as being a long distance with a diesel train over electrified line. I believe at one point Brighton to Eastbourne was proposed to be worked separately, did this proposal ever develop?

It's all very well extending a small number of peak-hour Uckfield services, which is fair enough as well, but I'd have put the Brighton to Ashford service as more of a priority, even if it doesn't involve commuters!

The new franchise included a commitment to keeping the through service from Brighton to Ashford as it is so there will be no splitting of the service at Eastbourne for the foreseeable future which is good in some ways.

 

[92002]

With three electrification projects completed recently in Scotland surely Northern could have three or four of these 158s? Better late than never.

There may have been 3 new electrification projects completed of late.

However no new EMUs were bought to work the lines.

So until the new order of EMUs arrive in 2017, it's doubtful that anything can be spared to transfer anywhere.

Given that the Borders line also open in 2015, the DMUs will be even more at a premium.

 

[paul1609]

Southern's 171s and 377s (also Southeastern's 375s and 376s) have Dellner couplers.

On a slightly unrelated but still interesting note, early 375s were built with tightlock couplers but were later converted to Dellner as the slam doors disappeared. Southern's three car 375s were renumbered 377s when this happened but Southeastern's were not!

Thats because 377s are fitted with external cameras for DOO operation and 375s are not. There was joint usage on Tonbridge to London via Redhill Services and Tonbridge to gatwick services. The class difference ensures that the 375 is not inadvertantly robbed for a DOO operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AFAIK no extra 170/171s will be used to lengthen the Brighton to Ashford services. They will stay in London for the Uckfield service only.

The 2 car fleet is common user between both services and its not unknown for a weekend marshlink service to be formed of a 4 car unit. The Brighton Ashford service requires 5 units.
The Rye shuttle diagram only needs 2 cars. 4 3 car units would match the demand allowing the 2 car units to go to Uckfield.

 

[swt_passenger]

The new franchise included a commitment to keeping the through service from Brighton to Ashford as it is so there will be no splitting of the service at Eastbourne for the foreseeable future which is good in some ways.

I'd like to add to the above that it was the franchise specification by the DfT that explicitly ruled it out, so not a decision that had to be made by the franchisee.

 

[northwichcat]

There may have been 3 new electrification projects completed of late.

However no new EMUs were bought to work the lines.

Take it you've forgotten about the 38 brand new 380s which Scotrail got to work lines including Paisley Canal. They released 5 x 322s but Scotrail held off releasing any DMUs due to needing extra capacity for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games. According to a few posters on here Scotrail's Sprinter diagrams are extremely slack compared to other operator's diagrams so there's scope for releasing DMUs just by introducing better diagramming, which may well be something Abellio are planning to do.

 

[Strathclyder]

Take it you've forgotten about the 38 brand new 380s which Scotrail got to work lines including Paisley Canal.

The 380s are only used at peak times on the Paisley Canal line, as far as I'm aware. 314s are the main stock on the route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a surplus of 380s to allow cascades to the new electric routes, including initial services on the E&G.
We wait to see the detail of what DMUs are retained in the new franchise.
The next tranche is from the Whifflet route in December, which will increase EMU utilisation quite a bit.

 

[170401]

The 380's were originally supposed to see the end of the class 314 fleet but the decision was taken to keep these units in service to allow for planned expansion of electric services until new stock was introduced.

So, since the 380's were delivered they have had 19 surplus units (16 314 and 3 380 that were built for Glasgow airport services), the surplus being spread across all the EMU fleets.

Much of this slack has now been taken up with projects such as paisley canal, Cumbernauld, Whifflet, Dunbar and additional Edinburgh - Carstairs - Glasgow services. this has indeed released quite a bit of diesel stock and even factoring in Borders rail it is not inconceivable a fair bit of stock could move South soon.

 

[grid56126]

There are suggestions that the 4 x 3 cars "may" be split into 2 x 4 car and 2 x 2 car formations. As the deal has only just been done everything about their eventual configuration is speculation including whether the couplings will be done to make them compatible with 171s.

About the only known facts are, 4 x 170 are coming and they WILL be used to allow strengthening of Uckfield line trains.

 

[Class 170101]

Presumably as well if extra diesel stock is required then the second Fife Circle could return to being hauled stock. There is still two services timed for this according to Realtime trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are suggestions that the 4 x 3 cars "may" be split into 2 x 4 car and 2 x 2 car formations. As the deal has only just been done everything about their eventual configuration is speculation including whether the couplings will be done to make them compatible with 171s.

I think it is inconceivable that the couplers would remain as they are, (assuming the units do transfer of course).

 

[thealexweb]

There may have been 3 new electrification projects completed of late.

However no new EMUs were bought to work the lines.

So until the new order of EMUs arrive in 2017, it's doubtful that anything can be spared to transfer anywhere.

Given that the Borders line also open in 2015, the DMUs will be even more at a premium.

Oh there is. When the Class 380s arrived, Scotrail retained a lot of the EMUs the Class 380s were meant to be replacing. This is why some Motherwell services and the Whifflet line can be run with EMUs now even though Scotrail has not received any additional stock in the least year. When other parts of its country are in great need of DMUs Scotrail needs to be held to account for its near consistent underusage of its rolling stock. Scotrail could afford to lose at least five DMUs just as a starting point.