Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[SWTH]

A good company that lost sight of its objectives, led by a man who didn't (couldn't?) admit fault or poor judgement.

 

[richw]

I don't know about the FDC standards (though I know they had some rather antiquated Darts from Bristol).

Just an observation on WG and somewhat worse than I'd anticipated, compared to earlier experiences round Newquay a few years earlier

Both of the N reg ex Bristol Darts have gone to scrap in the last month or so.

We do still have some K reg Leyland Olympians though.

 

[SWTH]

I don't know about the FDC standards (though I know they had some rather antiquated Darts from Bristol).

Just an observation on WG and somewhat worse than I'd anticipated, compared to earlier experiences round Newquay a few years earlier

With regard to your earlier observation about poorly turned out staff, there hasn't been any new uniform delivered since 2010, apart from some ties. Everything issued has been from stock already held - they ran out of coats in 2011 for example. The management have tried reissuing used uniform, with predictable responses from the intended recipients.

 

[richw]

With regard to your earlier observation about poorly turned out staff, there hasn't been any new uniform delivered since 2010, apart from some ties. Everything issued has been from stock already held - they ran out of coats in 2011 for example. The management have tried reissuing used uniform, with predictable responses from the intended recipients.

White shirts with green ties aren't exactly a big outlay.
If they want green sweaters I know of at least two local companies that will embroider if you supply the sweaters for a few quid a sweater.
No excuses for such a small expense not to have staff issued smart uniform.

 

[Busaholic]

If you go into the offices at Summercourt, there are several rows of awards on the walls. However, apart from the award given after the fire, none are from 2011 onwards. Quite telling, wouldn't you say?

It'll be telling if and when First take over the majority of WG services to see what awards they then get, or even nominations for awards. Bit like Geoffrey Boycott not accepting criticism on his batting from someone who once made a century for Cornwall.

 

[richw]

It'll be telling if and when First take over the majority of WG services to see what awards they then get, or even nominations for awards. Bit like Geoffrey Boycott not accepting criticism on his batting from someone who once made a century for Cornwall.

First aren't going to get awards.
They provide a reliable service - Cornwall is one of their few profitable operations.
They use older buses that despite they're age are mechanically reliable and well maintained. They aren't an oil painting but serve a function.
The majority of First's fleet is older than that of Western Greyhound but we seem to hear of far fewer breakdowns of First's buses. A larger older fleet operating more routes I would expect to hear of more breakdowns?

On the cricket description - my granddad once scored a century for a Cornwall Division 7 West Team, despite at the time being in his 50s

 

[Busaholic]

First aren't going to get awards.
They provide a reliable service - Cornwall is one of their few profitable operations.
They use older buses that despite they're age are mechanically reliable and well maintained. They aren't an oil painting but serve a function.
The majority of First's fleet is older than that of Western Greyhound but we seem to hear of far fewer breakdowns of First's buses. A larger older fleet operating more routes I would expect to hear of more breakdowns?

On the cricket description - my granddad once scored a century for a Cornwall Division 7 West Team, despite at the time being in his 50s

Well, I'm envious of your grandad, never having scored a century myself. Still, by the sound of it maybe there's still time, I'm a young 66!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Apologies for copying a long extract from Bob Egerton, a Cornish Councillor, but it does provide some insight into the problems at Western Greyhound. Near the end he says that he fears for the future for Western Greyhound.

Bob knows a little, but not enough.

What company continues providing a service when it is losing money? There is only one outcome from such a course of action!

First does not have deep pockets and, similarly, would not continue subsidising services over any significant period of time - what would the shareholders think!

However, he has nit the nail on the head in that councils are expecting something for nothing by reducing the re-imbursement rate paid for ENCTS travel, a matter which the bus operators, as a body across the country, should have been far more effective at lobbying against.

In WG's case (and across the country) companies do not seem to have adapted to the reduced BSOG, fuel rebate, ENCTS re-imbursement etc. and cut their cloth accordingly.

People should understand, councils no longer care about providing any services, be it elderly care, bus services or bin collection.

 

[richw]

Bob knows a little, but not enough.

What company continues providing a service when it is losing money? There is only one outcome from such a course of action!

First does not have deep pockets and, similarly, would not continue subsidising services over any significant period of time - what would the shareholders think!

However, he has nit the nail on the head in that councils are expecting something for nothing by reducing the re-imbursement rate paid for ENCTS travel, a matter which the bus operators, as a body across the country, should have been far more effective at lobbying against.

In WG's case (and across the country) companies do not seem to have adapted to the reduced BSOG, fuel rebate, ENCTS re-imbursement etc. and cut their cloth accordingly.

People should understand, councils no longer care about providing any services, be it elderly care, bus services or bin collection.

Bob has also failed to mention First Kernow actually turned a profit in the last year - albeit a relatively small one

First have also been losing money in Cornwall for the past few years, but at least they have a parent company that is able to support them

 

[robertclark125]

Apart from their depot at Somercourt, what other main depots do WG have, and what outstations, if any, do they have?

Likewise, is the old First depot at St Austell still standing? If so, possible candidate to reopen in future?

 

[richw]

Apart from their depot at Somercourt, what other main depots do WG have, and what outstations, if any, do they have?

Likewise, is the old First depot at St Austell still standing? If so, possible candidate to reopen in future?

St Austell First depot is now rubble - the site stands bare other than the rubble.

WG store a few buses at Liskeard in a shared facility. Most of their other outstations are closed - This can be seen with lots of once daily Summercourt - anywhere on their network early morning and late evening.

 

[matt_splat]

the Liskeard outstation is shared with Plymouth Citybus?

do western greyhound and stagecoach share in Bude?

I know there is still a outstation in Wadebridge.

I do wonder if the Liskeard area routes would be picked off by Plymouth Citybus, I think some of the North Cornwall work into Bude and the 510 could be ones that would interest Stagecoach I think Newquay and Truro areas might interest First also some of the Padstow routes could as well after all they still have a outstation in the area I think also some of the smaller ops will be showing some interest in some bits as well. if it did all go tits up I wonder if for the winter periods, if things do go tits up I think we will see a completely different bus network in Cornwall.

Are western greyhound drivers paid weekly or monthly? if its the case of monthly could be interesting to see what happens at the end of the month hopefully for the drivers sake things are not that bad

 

[83G/84D]

Both of the N reg ex Bristol Darts have gone to scrap in the last month or so.

We do still have some K reg Leyland Olympians though.

Not quite - one of the N reg Dart's is still at Camborne. Although it is minus parts it can still be moved under it's own power.

 

[robertclark125]

To be fair Matt I think we're already seeing a different Cornish bus network, what with First and Cornwall Busways gaining at WG's expense.

I remember when, I think it was 2012, when WG lost some work to First. Back then, a lot of passengers were complaining about the decision, saying First was not a good operator, and WG was a breath of fresh air. In two years, the roles have reversed.

And remember another thing in the decline of WG, has been the change at First on a national scale. More of a free hand has been given to local management, and in the case of Cornwall, management have perhaps thought "we can make a go of this, even if the HQ in Aberdeen cannot do so". And, local management have done so.

 

[richw]

the Liskeard outstation is shared with Plymouth Citybus?

do western greyhound and stagecoach share in Bude?

I know there is still a outstation in Wadebridge.

I do wonder if the Liskeard area routes would be picked off by Plymouth Citybus, I think some of the North Cornwall work into Bude and the 510 could be ones that would interest Stagecoach I think Newquay and Truro areas might interest First also some of the Padstow routes could as well after all they still have a outstation in the area I think also some of the smaller ops will be showing some interest in some bits as well. if it did all go tits up I wonder if for the winter periods, if things do go tits up I think we will see a completely different bus network in Cornwall.

Are western greyhound drivers paid weekly or monthly? if its the case of monthly could be interesting to see what happens at the end of the month hopefully for the drivers sake things are not that bad

Is there definitely still an outstation at Wadebridge? The services that start from Wadebridge all have an early morning Summercourt - Wadebridge operation. Like wise the opposite in the evening. This to me suggests they aren't stabling them in Wadebridge overnight.

PCB bid for services in the South East of the County on the last round of tenders, but WG bid lower prices. I wonder if the amounts WG bid was too low to run at profit. Cornwall Council were looking at 60% value to 40% quality on the awarding of the tender, but several councillors have admitted all were awarded to the cheapest no matter on the quality being offered.

Summercourt Travel have grown a lot in recent times - expanding from their original area hence the Travel Cornwall operation name- They know stretch from Penzance to Launceston with services.

Cornwall Busways now they are starting to become established, would they look to take on further routes?

SWTH may be able to answer the pay frequency question as a recent departed driver.

Part of the First structure changes has seen local knowledge for timings and frequencies mean a more reliable service with better timings. Certainly giving more control to local management has seen a much improved service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Picking up on a few comments here....

WG do still have a number of outbases don't they? The Bude one was a public car park and they did have one at the Gaia centre near Camelford? They also have Liskeard as well as one near St Dennis?

First don't have much of an outbase near Padstow do they? Is it just parking for Truro College routes? The main First Kernow locations are Camborne, with Truro now restored and a sub depot at Long Rock? Then it's Helston and Eden for open parking. Missed anywhere?

First have allowed Alex Carter freedom in getting FDCS into order. It was a case of stabilisation to staunch the worst losses, consolidation and then growth. Yes, the fleet is aged/ageing but is well maintained and managed.

I would say that Cornwall isnt one of the few profitable operations. First has a lot of profitable operations. They just weren't profitable enough under the hubris and fear regime of Moir. However, most are profitable and two/three years in, even the biggest cynic must admit that the change is apparent (though stronger in some areas than others)

 

[richw]

Picking up on a few comments here....

WG do still have a number of outbases don't they? The Bude one was a public car park and they did have one at the Gaia centre near Camelford? They also have Liskeard as well as one near St Dennis?

First don't have much of an outbase near Padstow do they? Is it just parking for Truro College routes? The main First Kernow locations are Camborne, with Truro now restored and a sub depot at Long Rock? Then it's Helston and Eden for open parking. Missed anywhere?

First have allowed Alex Carter freedom in getting FDCS into order. It was a case of stabilisation to staunch the worst losses, consolidation and then growth. Yes, the fleet is aged/ageing but is well maintained and managed.

I would say that Cornwall isnt one of the few profitable operations. First has a lot of profitable operations. They just weren't profitable enough under the hubris and fear regime of Moir. However, most are profitable and two/three years in, even the biggest cynic must admit that the change is apparent (though stronger in some areas than others)

First also have Tregoniggie depot in Falmouth

Padstow is seasonal - 2 or 3 Olympians went on their summer holiday there to run the Summer park and ride.

My previous post about Cornwall being one of the few profitable was no longer accurate, I'd just forgotten about recent changes -
They have got rid of most of the non profitable areas -North Devon and slimmed down considerably in Plymouth being examples closest to home.

Driver Morale seems good on First around here, every driver seems happy I've encountered - and a look at First Cornwall Facebook all of the most recent posts are thanking drivers for doing above the expected to help passengers.
On the other hand the only happy Western Greyhound driver I have come across in the last few months was Scott (SWTH) and he was serving his notice period at the time to move onto the railway - no wonder he was happy

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First also have Tregoniggie depot in Falmouth

Padstow is seasonal - 2 or 3 Olympians went on their summer holiday there to run the Summer park and ride.

Of course, forgot about Falmouth. That's just open parking too?

 

[richw]

Of course, forgot about Falmouth. That's just open parking too?

I think so with a couple of converted shipping containers.

 

[SWTH]

In answer to Rich.W's earlier question, the drivers are paid weekly.

 

[matt_splat]

Padstow I believe has four busses is it parked all year round for truro collage routes?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think so with a couple of converted shipping containers.

Is that the buses you are referring too?

 

[richw]

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

Brian? Always heard lots of positive about him.

 

[winston270twm]

St Austell First depot is now rubble - the site stands bare other than the rubble.

WG store a few buses at Liskeard in a shared facility. Most of their other outstations are closed - This can be seen with lots of once daily Summercourt - anywhere on their network early morning and late evening.

Is Liskeard outstation just a parking area? As I saw Weston Greyhound buses filling up with diesel as Liskeard Morrisons last week, which seemed a little odd.

They're 572/573 services seemed to be running fine and were pretty well uses from those that at I saw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A depot close to the A30 would be suited for Camborne easy for transfers and to move busses about.

I think as for talking about other depots / outstations it depends what happens with the situation with western greyhound if first competing and maybe financial issues finish them off what would happen to the routes I'm sure first would cherry pick some as would maybe Plymouth citybus and also stagecoach and im sure the independents would take a fancy to some bits as well.

There may be a depot going spare in Summercourt (Just off the A30) judging by some of the comments/rumours on here.

Alternatively if First Truro now have facilities/undertakes all the Kernow MOT's, it may be more cost effective to source a parking area to provide Truro with it's own work/allocation.

I doubt there is enough work at present in the Newquay area to warrant a new outstation. If I remember right the previous outstation up until closure was only a yard with a portacabin

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Alternatively if First Truro now have facilities/undertakes all the Kernow MOT's, it may be more cost effective to source a parking area to provide Truro with it's own work/allocation.

I doubt there is enough work at present in the Newquay area to warrant a new outstation. If I remember right the previous outstation up until closure was only a yard with a portacabin

To accommodate further operations, you might need a further parking area in Truro; in the latter days of WN's Lemon Quay depot, I think they also parked up on Newham IE near to where the depot is now.

Newquay outbase comprised two separate yards on Tolcarne Road. One was just parking (old British Gas site) but the main one with fuel island and portacabin was actually the yard of the former depot. The houses to the left of it were the site of the former depot building.

 

[winston270twm]

Newquay outbase comprised two separate yards on Tolcarne Road. One was just parking (old British Gas site) but the main one with fuel island and portacabin was actually the yard of the former depot. The houses to the left of it were the site of the former depot building.

Can't picture the above, the last time I saw the depot not long before it closed there were approx 8 x deckers & 1/2 x single deckers parked up the backwall of a yard surrounded by palisade fencing down the two sides & gates across the front & I think there were one of two portacabins on the right-hand side.

I can't remember seeing any fueling facilities in a separate yard, were buses also parked in there?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can't picture the above, the last time I saw the depot not long before it closed there were approx 8 x deckers & 1/2 x single deckers parked up the backwall of a yard surrounded by palisade fencing down the two sides & gates across the front & I think there were one of two portacabins on the right-hand side.

I can't remember seeing any fueling facilities in a separate yard, were buses also parked in there?

From the main road, you headed down Tolcarne Road. Tolcarne Mews on left was the old depot site. The yard is now a sports pitch but if you try satellite photo on Google Maps, you can see it. The other yard was on the right with a narrow road leading up to a yard - think the drivers tended to park their cars up there

I agree that I don't see an outstation returning there just yet. Rather sad to remember the old bus station and VRs and minibuses buzzing around with the crowds and how First let that slip. Be interesting to see how much they can reassert themselves

 

[winston270twm]

From the main road, you headed down Tolcarne Road. Tolcarne Mews on left was the old depot site. The yard is now a sports pitch but if you try satellite photo on Google Maps, you can see it. The other yard was on the right with a narrow road leading up to a yard - think the drivers tended to park their cars up there

I agree that I don't see an outstation returning there just yet. Rather sad to remember the old bus station and VRs and minibuses buzzing around with the crowds and how First let that slip. Be interesting to see how much they can reassert themselves

First seem to be something right in Cornwall, maybe WG have given them a helping hand but I never thought I'd see First returning to Perranporth & Newquay as they are from Nov. Looking forward to seeing the competition next time I'm down in Perranporth

 

[matt_splat]

so talk in the press release from first this is the start of many new routes in cornwall whats next then?

seen comments else where western greyhound directors have been trying to sell shares / the company.... would first be stopped from maybe making a move for the company just out of interest if they wanted too?

 

[83G/84D]

so talk in the press release from first this is the start of many new routes in cornwall whats next then?

seen comments else where western greyhound directors have been trying to sell shares / the company.... would first be stopped from maybe making a move for the company just out of interest if they wanted too?

May well see a repeat of the Stagecoach vs First debacle in North Devon.