Worth complaining, or am I overreacting?

[fowler9]

I emailed Mark Hopwood due to the unacceptable outcome of my complaint and the time frame involved.
I received personal contact from Andrew Mellors, so not dealt with by the MD himself, but his assistant. Still someone of importance though. The final response from him effectively agreed the outcome was unacceptable. Two first class anytime tickets being the compensation to me and a cheque for £20.



A TM wont lose his job over any passenger vs TM allegation about rudeness (unless they have voice recorders?) Insufficient evidence to discipline without doubt.
In my former employment every conversation and discussion we have is recorded (to cover us more than anything). Approx. 75% of complaints about employees being rude are found to be invalid. Complaints about rudeness tend to be when customers cant get their own way.

Well that is interesting. I would be genuinely interested to know if Andrew Mellors personally dealt with the complaint or if it was again passed down and a letter actually signed by him was sent out? Nice that he got involved anyway.

I totally agree about complaints about staff being rude. As I mentioned I was party to a complaint about my attitude very recently. The call was listened to and the offended party told that I hadn't done or said what I had been accused of. Exactly as you said it was because the offended party didn't get what they wanted, money or someone sacked (I said that last bit not you, ha ha). The only reason I even checked that complaint out the day after I closed it was because I knew they would come back. I would be happy for my call to be listened to on News 24.

 

[richw]

Well that is interesting. I would be genuinely interested to know if Andrew Mellors personally dealt with the complaint or if it was again passed down and a letter actually signed by him was sent out? Nice that he got involved anyway.

I'm not sure but the wording suggested he had looked into it, as it said he was dealing with my complaint on behalf of Mark Hopwood. It then said Mark would have replied but he is currently on leave and I am therefore replying on behalf of us all.

I totally agree about complaints about staff being rude. As I mentioned I was party to a complaint about my attitude very recently. The call was listened to and the offended party told that I hadn't done or said what I had been accused of. Exactly as you said it was because the offended party didn't get what they wanted, money or someone sacked (I said that last bit not you, ha ha). The only reason I even checked that complaint out the day after I closed it was because I knew they would come back. I would be happy for my call to be listened to on News 24.

I'm guessing we are in similar employment.
Anything to our CEO is passed to the most senior available manager to resolve.

 

[Greenback]

The majority of complaints I dealt as Complaints Manager with were unjustified. They were invariably either due to the complainant not understanding the processes under which we were legally obliged to operate, or because the customer was unhappy about our policy, over which I had little influence except to feed back to senior managers in London.

Where something had gone wrong, and it was our fault, I apologised and offered suitable redress, but the very few complaints about rude or unhelpful staff were exactly as fowler9 and richw said, the complainant didn't get what they were asking for. I, too, was able to listen to calls and I never encountered one instance where our staff were not polite and professional, even in the face of argument and abuse.

When a complaint arrived that was addressed to the Customer Service Director or another senior manager, it was almost always passed to me, sometimes with advice on how to respond, sometimes with authority to sign it off myself, and sometimes with instructions to show the manger my reply before sending it. Over almost eight years, I can count the instances where a senior manager personally dealt with a complaint on one hand, but it did happen if the complaint was of a very serious nature and warranted a high level response.

If I'd ever deemed a complaint about rude staff justified, I'd have taken all of the circumstances into account. Perhaps the employee concerned had been assaulted and only just returned to work, which would suggest that they had come back too soon, for instance, or not taken sick leave at all. There are countless other factors which may have been involved, and it's not good management at all to take a heavy handed approach without fully investigating the circumstances.

Interestingly, when I was on the railway, a customer did accuse on of the sales of advisors of being rude. There was some disagreement about what had actually been said, and no witnesses, but I decided that one word which both parties agreed had been used was inappropriate. I had a informal chat about being very careful with what is said, and left the matter there.

 

[fowler9]

I'm not sure but the wording suggested he had looked into it, as it said he was dealing with my complaint on behalf of Mark Hopwood. It then said Mark would have replied but he is currently on leave and I am therefore replying on behalf of us all.




I'm guessing we are in similar employment.
Anything to our CEO is passed to the most senior available manager to resolve.

That is good to hear. It does sound like a personal response and I am confident he will have looked in to your complaint as well as I am sure you are. It does sound like we work in similar employment. When I applied for the job people were surprised I would want to deal with big problems all day. I enjoy it. I feel like I can actually get stuff done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The majority of complaints I dealt as Complaints Manager with were unjustified. They were invariably either due to the complainant not understanding the processes under which we were legally obliged to operate, or because the customer was unhappy about our policy, over which I had little influence except to feed back to senior managers in London.

Where something had gone wrong, and it was our fault, I apologised and offered suitable redress, but the very few complaints about rude or unhelpful staff were exactly as fowler9 and richw said, the complainant didn't get what they were asking for. I, too, was able to listen to calls and I never encountered one instance where our staff were not polite and professional, even in the face of argument and abuse.

When a complaint arrived that was addressed to the Customer Service Director or another senior manager, it was almost always passed to me, sometimes with advice on how to respond, sometimes with authority to sign it off myself, and sometimes with instructions to show the manger my reply before sending it. Over almost eight years, I can count the instances where a senior manager personally dealt with a complaint on one hand, but it did happen if the complaint was of a very serious nature and warranted a high level response.

If I'd ever deemed a complaint about rude staff justified, I'd have taken all of the circumstances into account. Perhaps the employee concerned had been assaulted and only just returned to work, which would suggest that they had come back too soon, for instance, or not taken sick leave at all. There are countless other factors which may have been involved, and it's not good management at all to take a heavy handed approach without fully investigating the circumstances.

Interestingly, when I was on the railway, a customer did accuse on of the sales of advisors of being rude. There was some disagreement about what had actually been said, and no witnesses, but I decided that one word which both parties agreed had been used was inappropriate. I had a informal chat about being very careful with what is said, and left the matter there.

Yeah it is sometimes difficult to assure someone that a proportionate response has been taken. If everyone got sacked every time someone cocked up no one would be left working.

I have been lucky today. I had a couple of complaints which can on occasion have people wanting compensation or reassurance that someone had been sacked. In both cases what had gone wrong was fed back to the relevant manager and the complainant didn't even want a letter sending out.

 

[richw]

That is good to hear. It does sound like a personal response and I am confident he will have looked in to your complaint as well as I am sure you are. It does sound like we work in similar employment. When I applied for the job people were surprised I would want to deal with big problems all day. I enjoy it. I feel like I can actually get stuff done.

I applied for my job because I was desperate to get out of my old job at the time! I didn't expect to last long to be honest as nothing like I had done before. I've now been doing it for 3 years and cant fault the job!

In a strange way I rather enjoy dealing with complaints. I take great pleasure in being able to turn an angry customer into a happy customer.

 

[Busaholic]

Long time ago, but when traffic management trainee with London Transport I was given the job for about six months of dealing with letters of complaint (and the rare praise) from members of the public and replying to them: in theory, this was restricted to the bus side but I do remember some about adverts on Underground stations,etc. The only person in that time I was not allowed to reply to was the MP for one of the Ealing constituencies who had really got his teeth into the subject of one-man flat fare buses in his area, and I must say he was remarkably well briefed. Any correspondence from him had to go to the Chairman's office and be dealt with by his assistant, at the time Mike Parker, fresh out of university. Other MPs were merely passing on complaints from their constituents and were, frankly, just going through the motions, so something bland sufficed with a 'will try harder' message.

 

[Bob Ames]

As I often do, I purchased an advance ticket via XC's mobile app (m-ticket)

Sounds like they've missed a trick with this app. After showing the ticket, the app could then ask you to rate your TM.

 

[fowler9]

I applied for my job because I was desperate to get out of my old job at the time! I didn't expect to last long to be honest as nothing like I had done before. I've now been doing it for 3 years and cant fault the job!

In a strange way I rather enjoy dealing with complaints. I take great pleasure in being able to turn an angry customer into a happy customer.

Ah good stuff mate, me to. The trade I work in now I enjoy it. When I worked in Finance I didn't enjoy it, people complained for money and we would just throw it at them to make them go away. Where I work now I feel we actually get stuff done.

 

[Bodiddly]

In customer relations, there is a very fine line between a good resolution and a bad outcome. This is balanced very heavily towards the customer, as they are the complainent. Probably in the vast majority of cases the customer is, shall we say, ill advised. For instance, this could mean that a customer arrives at a station to connect to another service. Now lets say Passenger A is travelling on a Scotrail service into Edinburgh and are held up due to a points failure at The Mound. They miss their connecting East Coast service to York. When they arrive into Waverley they instantly start grumbling about how Scotrail delayed them in carrying on their journey. Scotrail didn't do anything of the sort, Network Rail caused the delay. Now this is where it becomes very complicated. Passenger A complains to East Coast initially because they set off without them on board. 'I have a reservation you know' says Passenger A. East Coast basically tell them in the most diplomatic of ways to bugger off and annoy Scotrail. Passenger A becomes a little more irate and challenges the first member of Scotrail staff he or she sets eyes upon. Unfortunately for Passenger A, he/she stumbles upon mr grumpy 40 years service ready to retire seen it all couldn't give a toss station bod. He listens for all of two seconds, and quickly walks away mumbling to himself how much he'd love this job if it weren't for the public ruining it for him. Passenger A is now baying for blood and foaming at the mouth. If they then realised their beef was with Network Rail, where do they then go?
Could all of this easily be settled with a one shop stop for passenger complaints? Probably, but we are running a multi corporate rail system with each company trying their best to shift any blame not to pay any money back to Passenger A when they get shafted. I was recently on a FGW service to Swansea where the TM constantly came over the PA to tell us how the Network Rail signaller let a slower Arriva service in front of an already late FGW service, the signaller in question's ears must have been red hot, as the TM let rip every station after Newport.
Welcome to the world of privitisation where blame gets gain.

 

[fowler9]

In customer relations, there is a very fine line between a good resolution and a bad outcome. This is balanced very heavily towards the customer, as they are the complainent. Probably in the vast majority of cases the customer is, shall we say, ill advised. For instance, this could mean that a customer arrives at a station to connect to another service. Now lets say Passenger A is travelling on a Scotrail service into Edinburgh and are held up due to a points failure at The Mound. They miss their connecting East Coast service to York. When they arrive into Waverley they instantly start grumbling about how Scotrail delayed them in carrying on their journey. Scotrail didn't do anything of the sort, Network Rail caused the delay. Now this is where it becomes very complicated. Passenger A complains to East Coast initially because they set off without them on board. 'I have a reservation you know' says Passenger A. East Coast basically tell them in the most diplomatic of ways to bugger off and annoy Scotrail. Passenger A becomes a little more irate and challenges the first member of Scotrail staff he or she sets eyes upon. Unfortunately for Passenger A, he/she stumbles upon mr grumpy 40 years service ready to retire seen it all couldn't give a toss station bod. He listens for all of two seconds, and quickly walks away mumbling to himself how much he'd love this job if it weren't for the public ruining it for him. Passenger A is now baying for blood and foaming at the mouth. If they then realised their beef was with Network Rail, where do they then go?
Could all of this easily be settled with a one shop stop for passenger complaints? Probably, but we are running a multi corporate rail system with each company trying their best to shift any blame not to pay any money back to Passenger A when they get shafted. I was recently on a FGW service to Swansea where the TM constantly came over the PA to tell us how the Network Rail signaller let a slower Arriva service in front of an already late FGW service, the signaller in question's ears must have been red hot, as the TM let rip every station after Newport.
Welcome to the world of privitisation where blame gets gain.[/QUOTE

Totally agree mate, this is an issue in all kinds of industries. Dealing with repairs in the housing industry (I can't go in to much detail) I handle complaints which in some cases are down to us, in other cases are down to rules laid down by the customers landlord and in others are down to problems caused by our subcontractors. It is sometimes hard to explain this to the poor customer who just wants their repair sorting and all I want to do is sort it out. It is the way the world works these days sadly. And it is not how I want it to be run.

 

[rdeez]

Still waiting for a full response, but I have received this

Thank you for your email, received here on 13/10/2014.

I am very sorry to learn of your disappointment with the way in which you were addressed by the Train Manager during your journey with us on 12 October 2014. I can appreciate how frustrating this must have been for you. Please be assured that we would always want our staff to be polite and professional, I am therefore very sorry that this was not your experience.

I would like to assure you that m-tickets are valid on our trains, I am therefore uncertain why you were advised otherwise. I also note your comments concerning the ticket checks on board. Our staff are required to ensure that tickets are checked throughout a journey, as this helps to ensure that all passengers are travelling with valid tickets.

I have logged your comments and have also contacted the relevant senior manager so that they can also obtain a report from the member of staff. As soon as I hear from them, I will write to you again.

Thank you for your patience in the meanwhile.

 

[Robertj21a]

Reads like a terribly routine letter sent to all complainants, with just the usual specific, standard, paragraphs inserted as appropriate.

 

[Latecomer]

Reads like a terribly routine letter sent to all complainants, with just the usual specific, standard, paragraphs inserted as appropriate.

Nothing wrong with that given that the matter is still under investigation and no full conclusion has been reached. The key point is that they have indicated that they will write again once they have received a report from the member of staff.

 

[martynbristow]

Just take it on he Chin. Was it such a bad experience that you could jepordise someones career? Perhaps his experience with you has taught him a lesson. Test him next time wear a dirty Tracksuit, Baseball Cap and carry a super strength bottle of Cider he'll probably laugh. Think of it as a compliment and that you are far to young looking to ever afford a First Class ticket.

I'm sorry . NO
If any member of staff can't give a good standard of customer they should consider an alternative career. The role of a TM is customer facing and being able to treat people equally and with curtosy is a given.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Interesting thread.

If you'd received such treatment from a member of staff in a bank you'd find it relatively easy to go elsewhere and would be justified in doing so. I spend more with my train co that I do in bank fees but get a worse service from the former.

In this monopolistic situation, the OP has no choice which means that the only route to improvement is for the TM to change his approach. Which won't happen if the management don't get to hear about it. Obviously, we can expect that once they've "had they're report from the member of staff" he'll be defended as his report will state that "he was only doing his job". The issues that the OP faced feel too subtle and nuanced for the average complaints process albeit no less uncomfortable and potentially offensive for him.

Well done for the OP to actually do something about it instead of only whingeing on a forum, which is all that many of us keyboard warriors seem to do.

 

[martynbristow]

Interesting thread.

If you'd received such treatment from a member of staff in a bank you'd find it relatively easy to go elsewhere and would be justified in doing so. I spend more with my train co that I do in bank fees but get a worse service from the former.

In this monopolistic situation, the OP has no choice which means that the only route to improvement is for the TM to change his approach. Which won't happen if the management don't get to hear about it. Obviously, we can expect that once they've "had they're report from the member of staff" he'll be defended as his report will state that "he was only doing his job". The issues that the OP faced feel too subtle and nuanced for the average complaints process albeit no less uncomfortable and potentially offensive for him.

Well done for the OP to actually do something about it instead of only whingeing on a forum, which is all that many of us keyboard warriors seem to do.

You've hit the nail on the head!
They can get away with this because there is little to no competition.
Although ... I avoid XC where possible.
When I lived down South and travel back North I would ALWAYS use VT & SWT.

For a primarily customer oriented role its shocking

 

[fowler9]

You've hit the nail on the head!
They can get away with this because there is little to no competition.
Although ... I avoid XC where possible.
When I lived down South and travel back North I would ALWAYS use VT & SWT.

For a primarily customer oriented role its shocking

I agree. In a weird way the worst kind of customers to deal with are the ones who have a bad experience, tell you everything was fine and then go all over the company Facebook page or what have you slating the company. I sadly have had one such customer. I would rather they had just told me what their issues were.

 

[berneyarms]

Interestingly Alan Williams in his latest column in Modern Railways describes being greeted at the door of First Class of his XC service at Birmingham New Street by "a suspicious "you first class?"" from the conductor.

He was not impressed!!

 

[HowardGWR]

Interestingly Alan Williams in his latest column in Modern Railways describes being greeted at the door of First Class of his XC service at Birmingham New Street by "a suspicious "you first class?"" from the conductor.

He was not impressed!!

Yes, it was an appalling story wasn't it? Funnily enough, we were so confronted on boarding a XC train at Bristol TM. I took it at the time as helpful, but thinking back now, I could imagine that some could take it as a class distinction approach.

It might be best to abandon that activity if it causes upset, perhaps. I suppose it has to do with stopping the lower orders trooping through the coach unnecessarily, possibly twice (on the way back) as they fail to reach the class they are after..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to complain to XC. What would you do? Was it wrong of me to challenge him about it?

Probably better to complain in retrospect than to challenge him directly, which was only ever going to put him on the defensive. But he does sound a bit of an idiot.

Neil

 

[Jonfun]

Sadly, as rail staff, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't in a lot of cases. The same people who become aggrieved at staff keeping First Class for first class passengers are likely to be the same folk who would complain if Standard passengers were allowed into First. There's no excuse for rudeness, of course, but sadly there are customers out there who will be offended and decide you're the rudest person in the world because they don't get their own way, regardless of how helpful and friendly you try to be. I don't, of course, suggest this is relevant to the OP though.

 

[fowler9]

Sadly, as rail staff, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't in a lot of cases. The same people who become aggrieved at staff keeping First Class for first class passengers are likely to be the same folk who would complain if Standard passengers were allowed into First. There's no excuse for rudeness, of course, but sadly there are customers out there who will be offended and decide you're the rudest person in the world because they don't get their own way, regardless of how helpful and friendly you try to be. I don't, of course, suggest this is relevant to the OP though.

Yeah sadly in a customer facing role you are sometimes on a hiding to nothing given that some people are on a mission to be offended whatever you do.

 

[yorkie]

It's not that difficult to avoid offending people regarding 1st class. Check 1st accommodation as soon as possible, and anyone with a Standard ticket you ask if they'd like to upgrade to 1st (or on a weekend simply ask for the relevant weekend 1st upgrade fee), and if they say no then ask them politely to move. This is a much better approach than treating people with suspicion or saying "this is 1st class" etc.

I wonder if it's the same TM doing this or if it's a problem on XC? Apparently one of them who works the south west section of route in particular is very notorious.

I've never known any issues on EC or TPE.

Even on EC on weekday evenings, with my bike and dressed for cycling. No-one has ever said "this is 1st class!" or "are you sure you're in 1st class?" or similar. So it must be an XC thing.

 

[Jonfun]

Of course it's not "just an XC thing"...

There's no need for rudeness, and I wouldn't defend anyone who started stereotyping, and making accusatory remarks based on age, gender, race, hairstyle, clothing, shopping habits, whatever, but there is a need to keep First Class for First Class ticket holders (or those who wish to upgrade, of course).

A couple of folk lacking customer service skills (and possibly general tact) isn't restricted to just one operator. My last VT First Class journey was shockingly poor, as despite having a crew of about thirty, I was ignored by two, grunted at by a couple of others who all then hid away after Stafford heading south. It was only the lass that came round bearing toast that had customer service standards exceeding that of McDonalds.

A polite and friendly trainside welcome to everyone (easier to do on XC, bearing in mind it's only one coach) should achieve a cheery welcome aboard to your First Class customer, a point in the right direction for any Standard Class customers who didn't realise that it was First Class, and avoids conflict from any "Oh, well I'll just stand here" folk who would otherwise cause obstructions.

But at the end of the day, if folk are aggrieved at something, be it a bad FC experience, the nasty ticket collector making them pay extra, the train having not been cleaned or whatever then the best bet is to write in and complain. If management get enough, they'll write a new policy or something which will at least last a couple of weeks until complaints coming in from people following that. If it's the same person regularly then it'll highlight any potential training issues etc.

 

[bb21]

It certainly is not restricted to XC only. I gave an example in a separate thread how I was directed towards Standard Class on boarding an East Coast service last year at the First end.

 

[herschell]

I've only been in FC once and that was on EC, had no problem when getting on the train or while in the coach, I'd guess it probably happens on all TOC's though how the TM handles it is the question is here and glad to see the OP did complain and receive a response.

 

[rdeez]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I have finally had my complaint reviewed - several months later!

Further to my email earlier this week, I would like to advise that I have now been forwarded details of the staff report. Firstly, I would like to apologise for the time it has taken to receive this, however I have been advised that a staff report was forwarded earlier, however it appears that this was not delivered. I can only apologise for the delay caused by this.

Nevertheless, I have been advised that the Train Manager confirmed that he did know the conditions of M-tickets and with regret he did not recall the incident at all, and therefore was unable to elaborate on this. I do appreciate that this must be very frustrating for you as this is a contradiction to what was stated in your email. With regret as I was not present, I am unable to comment any further on this. However details of your complaint will be attached to the member of staffs file for future reference.


Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely

[name removed]
Customer Relations Consultant
CrossCountry

Which is honestly the outcome I sort of expected all along.
Regardless, in the interests of politeness to the customer relations guy who, in fairness, has been in contact at fairly regular intervals along the way, I thanked him for his time in looking into the case. And, should this particular TM receive a similar complaint in the future, it will now be clear that it's more than an isolated incident. So perhaps he'll think twice.

I haven't actually seen him again yet since our fateful encounter last time, which I'm actually quite glad of.

 

[Parham Wood]

Perhaps you should ask what action is being taken to investigate the lost staff report.

 

[martynbristow]

Perhaps you should ask what action is being taken to investigate the lost staff report.

I agree, lost reports are either excessively careless or deliberate.

 

[RPI]

Don't be too disheartened, although they won't tell you the outcome, I bet the TM had a b*llocking and has been "reminded" of the M ticket validity