Early Mk 3 haulage query

[Ash Bridge]

Weren't the ETHEL's based in Scotland to provide ETH to the sleeper services when they were hauled by non ETH loco's? (going a bit off the Mk3 topic here).

As regards MK3's in the blue/grey era, they were normally hauled by classes 86 and 87, though in the 1970's, classes 81 & 85 would occasionally deputise. I seem to recall that the ETH index of the older electrics was less & therefore their use on MK3 formations was discouraged?

And yes, I recall having the misfortune of a bucket on a rake of MK3's up the NW coast on a warm summers day - a bit sweaty by Holyhead..!!

And just to take us briefly even more off topic, the mk2 pullman stock as I recall were always 86 hauled, never saw it behind an 81-85. Was this an ETH index issue with the earlier series electric locos? I do remember it was not compatable with ETH fitted diesel locos back in the 1970s.

 

[fowler9]

I guess the phrase Electric Train Heating came from steam heating where the loco would only have to heat the stock, the ventilation coming from the top-lights in the carriage.

Is ETS now the same thing? (Electric Train Supply)?

I think it would be the same but when I was growing up in the very late 70's and 80's ETH was just used as a cover all for locos that could provide power for modern are conditioned rolling stock and some none air conditioned. Certainly among the train fan fraternity if not by the operators. I certainly always thought anything with ETH jumper cables could power ETH equiped stock.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it would be the same but when I was growing up in the very late 70's and 80's ETH was just used as a cover all for locos that could provide power for modern are conditioned rolling stock and some none air conditioned. Certainly among the train fan fraternity if not by the operators. I certainly always thought anything with ETH jumper cables could power ETH equiped stock.

Broadly speaking yes, it is simply a giant electric socket but it varies in voltage and frequency depending what loco is supplying it and what that loco is doing at the time. As usual there are a few other complications, such as different locos having different limits on ETS power, some coaches having lower-rated wiring that can't feed more than a certain current to coaches behind, and some coaches being incompatible with the voltage/frequency supplied by some locos.
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And just to take us briefly even more off topic, the mk2 pullman stock as I recall were always 86 hauled, never saw it behind an 81-85. Was this an ETH index issue with the earlier series electric locos? I do remember it was not compatable with ETH fitted diesel locos back in the 1970s.

Certainly an 87 couldn't be used as the Pullmans were vacuum brake and an 87 was air brake only. I guess they would want to use an 86 as the most common and modern electric loco with vacuum brakes.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Broadly speaking yes, it is simply a giant electric socket but it varies in voltage and frequency depending what loco is supplying it and what that loco is doing at the time. As usual there are a few other complications, such as different locos having different limits on ETS power, some coaches having lower-rated wiring that can't feed more than a certain current to coaches behind, and some coaches being incompatible with the voltage/frequency supplied by some locos.
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Certainly an 87 couldn't be used as the Pullmans were vacuum brake and an 87 was air brake only. I guess they would want to use an 86 as the most common and modern electric loco with vacuum brakes.

Ah yes, forgot they were vacuum braked only. When they refurbished them in the 80s were they then converted to air braking?

 

[theblackwatch]

Ah yes, forgot they were vacuum braked only. When they refurbished them in the 80s were they then converted to air braking?

Yes, the ones that weren't scrapped were converted to AB only.

 

[bigdelboy]

Relevent to this thread is the post by sprinterguy on this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47098

wrt to a picture of hauling of some mkiii's .... "... given the Deltics well known inability to (provide power to the later air-con mark 2s and mark 3s without the risk of flashovers unless suitable modifications were carried out, as was done on the East Coast mark 2 fleet. I can't see any passengers on board, and it looks distinctly as if the lights are switched off in the TSO, which suggests an ECS movement"

 

[AJP62]

ETH of a long rake of Mk3s could be a large drain on the loco. On say S&C diverts with a 47/4 it was said they would switch off the ETH supply for the climb from Settle to Ais Gill - probably not a great discomfort for the passengers but a significant help for the loco.

 

[kermit]

ETH of a long rake of Mk3s could be a large drain on the loco. On say S&C diverts with a 47/4 it was said they would switch off the ETH supply for the climb from Settle to Ais Gill - probably not a great discomfort for the passengers but a significant help for the loco.

That might depend on the weather outside and whether any of the windows to the vestibules had been left open!

This whole thread illustrates what, in retrospect, seems quite a surprising point - the opportunity to provide standardised solutions to universal problems (like supplying standardised ETH to Mk2 and Mk3 stock) was never really exploited in BR days. We know that the Regions had a lot of scope to set their own engineering policies (however delightful the WR Hydraulics were for the contributors to these pages - including me - they made no sense at all for a national rail network!), but some of the kinks and glitches referred to above seem inexplicable even in those terms.

And in the end, given that the railway is (or should be) run for the customers, a class 40 hauling a rake of revenue earning Mk3s with only emergency lighting and no heat or ventilation was just wrong!!

 

[Harbon 1]

I think it would be the same but when I was growing up in the very late 70's and 80's ETH was just used as a cover all for locos that could provide power for modern are conditioned rolling stock and some none air conditioned. Certainly among the train fan fraternity if not by the operators. I certainly always thought anything with ETH jumper cables could power ETH equiped stock.

That's what I mean, any loco with an ETH index suitable could haul that stock, but ETH covered the air-con in the later designs of carriages, rather than just the heating, 'ETH' being kept from when it was just the heating of the carriages, so when the locos started providing the power to coo the stock as well, it was still known as Electric Train Heating

 

[455driver]

Any ETH (or ETS which is the new name for the same thing) fitted loco could haul any ETH fitted coach within reason.

The problems begin because-

The Deltics suffered from flashovers and so could only work with certain coaches )they did work with the others but there was a lot of finger crossing going on) and drivers had to modify their driving techniques to prevent power surges as they took or shut off power.

The Southern used a voltage of 750V DC whereas the standard was 1000V DC so their 33s were not very good at heating other regions coaches and the Southern coaches would get a bit toasty if heated by another regions locos.

Because trains got more power hungry (when air con became standard , power internal doors, electric cooking etc) and longer some were built with (or modified) to thicker wiring and any train with an ETH above 66 had to be entirely formed of vehicles (including the loco) with the bigger wiring (1000 amp springs to mind but I am not sure).

Some locos were converted with a low ETH index (37/4s were only 48) while others were built with high ETH from a low powered loco (31/4s were 66 from only 1300hp) and so a lot of drivers would turn the ETH off if they were late or climbing hills to increase the amount of power going to the wheels.

There is more but that is off the top of my head and lt is a good indication of how a 'standard' system wasnt exactly standard!

 

[hurricanemk1c]

A Deltic did work a rake of Scottish push-pull Mark 3's to Oban in 1981. Only loco with ETH and the necessary axle loading for the trip

 

[455driver]

A Deltic did work a rake of Scottish push-pull Mark 3's to Oban in 1981. Only loco with ETH and the necessary axle loading for the trip

They worked them quite often, it was quite common at one stage.

 

[kermit]

Quote:

"A Deltic did work a rake of Scottish push-pull Mark 3's to Oban in 1981. Only loco with ETH and the necessary axle loading for the trip"

They worked them quite often, it was quite common at one stage.


So was that a Deltic being driven gently to avoid flashovers, or with the heat and lights switched off to minimise the competing power drain, or just with fingers crossed?

 

[hurricanemk1c]

As I was born just over 14 years after the Deltics were withdrawn, I can't say. As for regular working, you don't often see photos of Deltics+Mk3's. Any pics would be great

 

[sprinterguy]

The reason that Deltics had problems providing train supply to later air conditioned mark 2 and mark 3 vehicles, except those mark 2s modified for the East Coast, was that the train supply was drawn straight off the main (DC) generator, rather than from a separate generator or alternator as with other loco classes. This caused power to the train to drop to zero whenever the driver took power or shut off, and also caused violent fluctuations when easing off, tripping circuit breakers on the coaches and causing generator flashovers on the loco.
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As for regular working, you don't often see photos of Deltics+Mk3's. Any pics would be great

Here's a link to some shots of the Oban working in 1981 - Full Scottish push-pull rake, to boot:
http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/21_23-8-81.htm

And here's a shot of a Deltic on mark 3s at York from the other, previous, thread:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3861945278/in/set-72157604142594351
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They worked them quite often, it was quite common at one stage.

I didn't think Deltics on mark 3s were very common at all, and certainly not on the West Highland line! They did, however, regularly work modified air-con mark 2Ds and 2Es on the East Coast.

 

[455driver]

me

hurricanemk1c
A Deltic did work a rake of Scottish push-pull Mark 3's to Oban in 1981. Only loco with ETH and the necessary axle loading for the trip

They worked them quite often, it was quite common at one stage.

So was that a Deltic being driven gently to avoid flashovers, or with the heat and lights switched off to minimise the competing power drain, or just with fingers crossed?

If you are going to try and be clever at least learn to quote properly! :roll:

 

[kermit]

The reason that Deltics had problems providing train supply to later air conditioned mark 2 and mark 3 vehicles, except those mark 2s modified for the East Coast, was that the train supply was drawn straight off the main (DC) generator, rather than from a separate generator or alternator as with other loco classes. This caused power to the train to drop to zero whenever the driver took power or shut off, and also caused violent fluctuations when easing off, tripping circuit breakers on the coaches and causing generator flashovers on the loco.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here's a link to some shots of the Oban working in 1981 - Full Scottish push-pull rake, to boot:
http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/21_23-8-81.htm

And here's a shot of a Deltic on mark 3s at York from the other, previous, thread:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3861945278/in/set-72157604142594351
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think Deltics on mark 3s were very common at all, and certainly not on the West Highland line! They did, however, regularly work modified air-con mark 2Ds and 2Es on the East Coast.

Did the modifications to the 2Ds and 2Es involve electronics in the coaches to smooth out load variations?

 

[sprinterguy]

Did the modifications to the 2Ds and 2Es involve electronics in the coaches to smooth out load variations?

I can't recall specifically - I'll have to check my source later on.

 

[455driver]

I don't think Deltics on mark 3s were very common at all, and certainly not on the West Highland line! They did, however, regularly work modified air-con mark 2Ds and 2Es on the East Coast.

Any time there was a need for an ETH loco at Oban then the only thing that could be used was the Deltic, everything else was overweight, werent used in the area (31, 33 etc) or couldnt supply enough ETH supply. mark 3s didnt go to Oban very often because they were all needed on the West Coast mainline but virtually every time they did go it was with a Deltic on the front.

Lets not forget the mark3 loco hauled coaches went into service from 1976, the Deltics were withdrawn from service in 1981, okay January 2nd 1982, so there wasnt much of an overlap.

 

[sprinterguy]

Any time there was a need for an ETH loco at Oban then the only thing that could be used was the Deltic, everything else was overweight, werent used in the area (31, 33 etc) or couldnt supply enough ETH supply. mark 3s didnt go to Oban very often because they were all needed on the West Coast mainline but virtually every time they did go it was with a Deltic on the front.

The first trip of a Deltic to Oban was that one in August 1981 reportedly. There was a repeat performance a fortnight later, but given how little time the Deltics had left at that stage there can’t have been that many more, surely?

The earliest loco-hauled mark 3s were allocated to the Scottish region at this stage for the Edinburgh to Glasgow push-pull workings, they weren’t all utilised on the West Coast at that point.

 

[kermit]

If you are going to try and be clever at least learn to quote properly! :roll:

Thanks for the advice.

Bit unnecessary, I thought, but each to their own.

Apologies if my incompetence offended.

 

[455driver]

The first trip of a Deltic to Oban was that one in August 1981 reportedly. There was a repeat performance a fortnight later, but given how little time the Deltics had left at that stage there can’t have been that many more, surely?

Not many, 4 rings a bell but I certainly wouldnt bet on it, very very hazy memory!

The earliest loco-hauled mark 3s were allocated to the Scottish region at this stage for the Edinburgh to Glasgow push-pull workings, they weren’t all utilised on the West Coast at that point.

I had forgotten about them!

Edit-
A quick google search and it looks like it was just 2 trips to Oban, 2nd and 23rd of August 1981.
The hunt continues for pictures of Deltics hauling mk 3s elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

Various Mk3 rakes appeared in Edinburgh during the Penmanshiel rebuilding in 1979 (?) so some Deltic haulage might have happened then.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Not many, 4 rings a bell but I certainly wouldnt bet on it, very very hazy memory!


I had forgotten about them!

Edit-
A quick google search and it looks like it was just 2 trips to Oban, 2nd and 23rd of August 1981.
The hunt continues for pictures of Deltics hauling mk 3s elsewhere.

I remember seeing a Deltic at York on an Edinburgh- Kings X service sometime during 1973/74 and in the formation were 2 prototype mk3s. A kitchen/buffet & open 1st. Will rifle my old slide collection this w/end, definately have a shot of a mk3 prototype in a west coast 86 hauled mk1/2d set at Stockport c 1973

 

[theblackwatch]

The first trip of a Deltic to Oban was that one in August 1981 reportedly. There was a repeat performance a fortnight later, but given how little time the Deltics had left at that stage there can’t have been that many more, surely?

.

Those two were the only trips Deltics made to Oban while in BR service - there have been several since though!

 

[sprinterguy]

Did the modifications to the 2Ds and 2Es involve electronics in the coaches to smooth out load variations?

Having checked, the mark 2D and mark 2F stock (rather than mark 2E - apologies, was working off memory) that was allocated to the East Coast main line were fitted with modified (again, not sure how modified) motor-alternators in order to work with Deltics. The standard motor-alternators tended to overheat if the train supply, nominally set at 1000V, dropped below 800V reportedly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because trains got more power hungry (when air con became standard , power internal doors, electric cooking etc) and longer some were built with (or modified) to thicker wiring and any train with an ETH above 66 had to be entirely formed of vehicles (including the loco) with the bigger wiring (1000 amp springs to mind but I am not sure).

Having looked at a couple of written sources it seems that any train with an ETH above 66 had to be formed entirely formed of vehicles with 600 amp wiring - 400 amp being the standard before then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The hunt continues for pictures of Deltics hauling mk 3s elsewhere.

See the second picture linked in my post, number 45.

 

[455driver]

Having looked at a couple of written sources it seems that any train with an ETH above 66 had to be formed entirely formed of vehicles with 600 amp wiring - 400 amp being the standard before then.

Thank you, that was doing my head in, I knew I had read it somewhere but couldnt remember where!

See the second picture linked in my post, number 45.

I have, yum yum!

 

[bigdelboy]

Randomly looking about eth/ets variations which seems relevant to 2 or 3 threads at the moment I came upon this post.

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12954&view=findpost&p=136285

One is relying upon the providence of the author, but he comments:

However, from 1975 onwards Mark 3A coaches were built
The could be hauled by just about any loco you can think of, however it was preferential to use locos with an ETH supply
During the late 1980s ot 1990s, I saw :
37/4, 47/4, 47/7, 81, 85, 86, 87, and 90
The Class 31/4 could also have hauled rakes
I myself ended up on a rake rescued by a pair of Class 26s, taken forward to Carlisle then replaced by a 47/4, and yet another 47/4 at Bristol
I had also seen rakes hauled by non-passenger locos, such as 37/0, 37/5, 47/0, 47/3, 56, and 60

That thread also seems to corroborate various other things said about eth/ets here and on the '73's thread where is it is of revelancy for the Scottish sleepers

 

[Taunton]

Some locos were converted with a low ETH index (37/4s were only 48) while others were built with high ETH from a low powered loco (31/4s were 66 from only 1300hp) and so a lot of drivers would turn the ETH off if they were late or climbing hills to increase the amount of power going to the wheels.

This became the standard driving technique for the Class 33 on Waterloo-Exeter, during the years after the Warships were withdrawn and before the Class 50 turned up on the route. Unusually for locos of the time the Class 33 were electric heat only. Particularly west of Salisbury, on full-length Mk 1 stock trains, the common procedure was to switch the heating off going uphill, then back on again once over the top. It's quite a switchback line so not that much of an issue. I wonder how official the procedure was.

I recall that once air-con Mk 2e-f stock got onto WCML trains other than Euston services, the Scottish Region would quite regularly turn out a Haymarket Class 40 for the Carstairs-Edinburgh leg of services. They were allocated a small number of 47/4 for these services, but clearly not enough. Not all the Class 40 even had air braking at this time, so the loco had to be carefully chosen.

Back at the original question, when the original blue/grey Mk 3 came onto the WCML they ran for quite some time with other stock, it was common for air-con Mk 2 to be mixed in the rake, as well as the refreshment and brake vehicles being Mk 1. The Euston services had just had a large delivery of Mk 2f stock as well, which had the same interior, so passengers probably didn't notice any real difference. By the mid-1970s it was already unusual to see anything other than a class 86/87 on express passenger work, which is not to say the older locos didn't appear any more but that was the normal arrangement.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Unable to locate slide of Deltic hauled mk3s but found image of Class 86 hauled Euston - Manchester service back in 1974 at Stockport with mk3 prototype Buffet/Kitchen vehicle in a mk2d rake (4th coach) Also a shot of Western Class 52 at Exeter St David's on a Paddington service formed of mk2d air conditioned stock in 1975. Being new to this Iam not sure if I have been successful in attaching these, if not they are available to view in my pictures, also just to add these are poor quality screen shots as scanner has been playing up.