Early Mk 3 haulage query

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Please help me with the following if you can; I have done some searching both on here and on the internet in general but without much luck.

Which classes of loco regularly hauled blue/grey Mk 3s in BR days (not including those in HST sets)? I have found one picture of an 86 on the WCML in 1982 with a Mk 1 (baggage coach?) then Mk 3s - would I be right in thinking that 87s would also have hauled them?

The second part to my query is would all the locos hauling the blue/grey Mk 3s have been in BR Blue livery? Was there a degree of overlap when InterCity livery began to appear when there might have been an IC-liveried loco hauling coaches still in blue/grey (or a mix or blue/grey and IC coaches)? And when were the last loco-hauled Mk 3s repainted from blue/grey to IC?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

 

[jopsuk]

Until the introduction of the DVTs, the WCML mark 3s operated with mark 1 brake vans. Only three "proper" mark 3 brake vans were ever built (these are now in the Night Riviera/Cornish Sleeper fleet). Not sure exactly which classes would have initially worked with them, but by the end (Virgin days) certainly it was a mix of locos (also including laterally Class 90s- which they then moved to the GEML with)

Mark 3s also operated, in blue/grey, with the mark 2 Driving Brake Standard opens (DBSOs) specially converted for the task, operating with adapted class 47s on the Edinburgh-Glasgow Express service.

 

[cambsy]

I know 87's hauled MK3's when in blue/grey livery as rode them back then, 86's and possibly 85's may have done, memory bit foggy, and the Mk3's were hauled with commonwealth bogied mk1 guards van when first run at 110mph then went to dvt operation later on.

 

[DY444]

Blue/Grey Mk III day coaches were regularly hauled by Class 47/86/87 and occasionally by earlier AC electrics. Sleepers the same plus Class 50s on the WR (and the occasional 45/1) and 37s in Scotland.

There were also booked turns for a Class 50 with a rake of HST MkIIIs and a generator van on the Bristol line in the late 70s during the GEC motored HST power car fiasco

 

[47802]

You would occasonally get a class 40 working a MK3 set on summer Saturdays on the North Wales coast and an S&C diversion etc instead of a 47, and 47's worked Glasgow to Edinburgh MK3 Push Pull sets from Late 1979 I think.

And yes there was a fair degree of overlap between BR Blue and Intercity Livered coaches and loco's, and quite a few Loco's would be in Large Logo Blue as well by then.

 

[Monty]

I know 87's hauled MK3's when in blue/grey livery as rode them back then, 86's and possibly 85's may have done, memory bit foggy, and the Mk3's were hauled with commonwealth bogied mk1 guards van when first run at 110mph then went to dvt operation later on.

Pretty sure the MK1 BGs rated for 110mph running had B4 bogies fitted, 100mph being the maximum permitted for commonwealth bogies?

 

[455driver]

As Monty has stated, B4s (with special maintenance) for 110mph, Commonwealths were never rated over 100mph.

 

[Helvellyn]

Don't forget the early TSOs and FOs that went to ScotRail for the Edinburgh-Glasgow services. These operated with Class 47/7s in Blue, plus 47711/712 that wore BR large logo. These coaches were all quite quickly painted into ScotRail Express colours (essentially InterCity Executive but with the red stripe replaced by pale blue).

On the West Coast itself the Mark 3A fleet was usually hauled by Class 87's or 86's, but a Class 81 or 85 could make an appearance. You also had mixed rakes - Mark 2F TSOs or FOs, or Mk 1 RBRs. It wasn't until the very early 1990s (and especially once the ex-ScotRail Mark 3A's came back) that all Mark 3 rakes appeared (including 3B FOs and DVTs).

Unlike the HST sets that generally went to Works as a fixed set, so emerged all in InterCity (but could tun with Blue/Grey power cars - or vice versa), the 3A stock tended to go to Works as individual vehicles until fixed formations came in with the 3B DVTs. This meant you could have a mix of Mk 1, 2F and 3A vehicles in a formaion, somin Blue/Grey and some in InterCity!

 

[jopsuk]

On a related, if very much post blue & grey tangent. The BFOs (now officially BUOs at FGW) were built in the 3B batch that also included the the DVTs. What services were they for and why didn't those services use a DVT?

 

[theblackwatch]

On a related, if very much post blue & grey tangent. The BFOs (now officially BUOs at FGW) were built in the 3B batch that also included the the DVTs. What services were they for and why didn't those services use a DVT?

The 3 BFOs were built 'pre DVT', at the same time as the 3B FOs (11064-101). I'm sure we've had a discussion on here about them some time ago, but from what I remember they were initially used on Manchester/Liverpool-London services (which meant the Mk.1 BG could be dispensed with), before migrating onto the Clansman.

 

[455driver]

The 3 BFOs were built 'pre DVT', at the same time as the 3B FOs (11064-101). I'm sure we've had a discussion on here about them some time ago, but from what I remember they were initially used on Manchester/Liverpool-London services (which meant the Mk.1 BG could be dispensed with), before migrating onto the Clansman.

Adding to this ^^
They were used on the 'Pullman' services, the 3B FOs were named as well!
The BFOs were built as they needed the extra capacity.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Adding to this ^^
They were used on the 'Pullman' services, the 3B FOs were named as well!
The BFOs were built as they needed the extra capacity.

And I think these were fitted with the APT-P style of 1st class seating, were they not?

 

[455driver]

And I think these were fitted with the APT-P style of 1st class seating, were they not?

Cor now you are testing my memory, runs upstairs and grabs a P5 book, IC80 seats fitted to the mark 3B 1sts.

11064-11072 were 'normal' 1st class coaches,
11073-11082 were 'Pullman' 1st class coaches,
11083-11094 were 'Pullman' 1st class coaches with public telephone,
11095-11101 were 'normal' 1st class coaches.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Cor now you are testing my memory, runs upstairs and grabs a P5 book, IC80 seats fitted to the mark 3B 1sts.

11064-11072 were 'normal' 1st class coaches,
11073-11082 were 'Pullman' 1st class coaches,
11083-11094 were 'Pullman' 1st class coaches with public telephone,
11095-11101 were 'normal' 1st class coaches.

Excellent! Thanks for the confirmation on that, shall trouble no more this evening

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Many thanks for the replies - just what I was after. Thanks to all!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Any air braked loco - including class 47 / 33 / 55 etc.- thought the WCML was almost solid class 86 / 87 by the mid - late 90's

 

[jonty14]

Blue/Grey Mk III day coaches were regularly hauled by Class 47/86/87 and occasionally by earlier AC electrics. Sleepers the same plus Class 50s on the WR (and the occasional 45/1) and 37s in Scotland.

There were also booked turns for a Class 50 with a rake of HST MkIIIs and a generator van on the Bristol line in the late 70s during the GEC motored HST power car fiasco

Hi. What was the GEC motored HST power car fiasco?

 

[theblackwatch]

Hi. What was the GEC motored HST power car fiasco?

Delivery of a large number of brand new power cars was delayed.

 

[fowler9]

On a related, if very much post blue & grey tangent. The BFOs (now officially BUOs at FGW) were built in the 3B batch that also included the the DVTs. What services were they for and why didn't those services use a DVT?

The BFO's were on the Pullman services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Almost always 90's, 87's and 86's. Occasionally 85's and 81's. Pretty sure 82's, 83's and 84's would not be involved.

 

[Bevan Price]

Any air braked loco - including class 47 / 33 / 55 etc.- thought the WCML was almost solid class 86 / 87 by the mid - late 90's

And in "Birmingham area drags", (e.g. Birmingham - Nuneaton) that could include classes 56, 58, 31, 37, 50, etc., despite the lack of train heating on some of them.

 

[kermit]

And in "Birmingham area drags", (e.g. Birmingham - Nuneaton) that could include classes 56, 58, 31, 37, 50, etc., despite the lack of train heating on some of them.

This intrigued me, as did earlier mention of Class 40s hauling Mk3s. I had always assumed that in addition to the electric heating, the ventilation and lighting would require the ETH supply. Surely a "40" hauling any ETH-only stock (including later MK2s) would lead to a potentially unpleasant passenger experience? Or were there separate supply arrangements for these other basic services?

 

[455driver]

This intrigued me, as did earlier mention of Class 40s hauling Mk3s. I had always assumed that in addition to the electric heating, the ventilation and lighting would require the ETH supply. Surely a "40" hauling any ETH-only stock (including later MK2s) would lead to a potentially unpleasant passenger experience? Or were there separate supply arrangements for these other basic services?

Yes you are correct and it was basically tough on the passengers!
The fans would run and the lights would go onto emergency but if it was a hot day then the coach got very hot inside.

 

[Ash Bridge]

This intrigued me, as did earlier mention of Class 40s hauling Mk3s. I had always assumed that in addition to the electric heating, the ventilation and lighting would require the ETH supply. Surely a "40" hauling any ETH-only stock (including later MK2s) would lead to a potentially unpleasant passenger experience? Or were there separate supply arrangements for these other basic services?

I remember an occasion back in 1975 at Exeter St. Davids when a Western turned up on a Paddington bound service with a rake of aircon Mk2s, obviously standing in for a 47/4 or 50. Did get a shot of it but need to scan the slide.

 

[kermit]

I remember an occasion back in 1975 at Exeter St. Davids when a Western turned up on a Paddington bound service with a rake of aircon Mk2s, obviously standing in for a 47/4 or 50. Did get a shot of it but need to scan the slide.

That would have been before the 3 former class 25s were turned into Ethel units - but where were the 3 Ethels based and deployed? Did they help with ventilation and light even on summer days when train heat, in the strictly defined sense, would not be needed?

 

[Marklund]

They were to work with the West Highland Line sleepers, when they went from mark 1 to mark 3, and based at Eastfield, Glasgow.

 

[fowler9]

That would have been before the 3 former class 25s were turned into Ethel units - but where were the 3 Ethels based and deployed? Did they help with ventilation and light even on summer days when train heat, in the strictly defined sense, would not be needed?

I'm going to have a wild stab in the dark here and the Ethels were of my time but even though the name related to Electric Train Heating didn't ETH in fact control the whole air conditioning system along with the lighting. So not just heating? Where they not based at Eastfield?

What I mean is where they not just used as a compatible electricity generator? And also wheren't they based at Eastfield?

 

[Polarbear]

That would have been before the 3 former class 25s were turned into Ethel units - but where were the 3 Ethels based and deployed? Did they help with ventilation and light even on summer days when train heat, in the strictly defined sense, would not be needed?

Weren't the ETHEL's based in Scotland to provide ETH to the sleeper services when they were hauled by non ETH loco's? (going a bit off the Mk3 topic here).

As regards MK3's in the blue/grey era, they were normally hauled by classes 86 and 87, though in the 1970's, classes 81 & 85 would occasionally deputise. I seem to recall that the ETH index of the older electrics was less & therefore their use on MK3 formations was discouraged?

And yes, I recall having the misfortune of a bucket on a rake of MK3's up the NW coast on a warm summers day - a bit sweaty by Holyhead..!!

 

[kermit]

They were to work with the West Highland Line sleepers, when they went from mark 1 to mark 3, and based at Eastfield, Glasgow.

Not handy for an Exeter loco substitution then...........

 

[Harbon 1]

I'm going to have a wild stab in the dark here and the Ethels were of my time but even though the name related to Electric Train Heating didn't ETH in fact control the whole air conditioning system along with the lighting. So not just heating? Where they not based at Eastfield?

What I mean is where they not just used as a compatible electricity generator? And also wheren't they based at Eastfield?

I guess the phrase Electric Train Heating came from steam heating where the loco would only have to heat the stock, the ventilation coming from the top-lights in the carriage.

Is ETS now the same thing? (Electric Train Supply)?

 

[Marklund]

Electric Train Heating Ex Locomotive, AKA ETHEL 1, ETHEL 2 & ETHEL 3