Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[fowler9]

I personally think it has been proven that what Northern said all along which is that not many people will actually be effected by it because most travelers at that time are using a season or anytime return already . Which means the changing of restrictions on off peak tickets hasn't raised them that much money in the long run .
That is mirrored by my own experience of only having to perform a handful of excesses during the last month that this has been in operation .

One thing I do think will have made a bit more revenue though is the removal of the cheap evening return/evening rover as I haven't really seen any lull in passengers after 6:30 and a fair few people still think a return is cheaper than a single at that time . Although I think it might take a bit more than a month for the effects of the removal of them to be felt as more and more people decide its cheaper to get a taxi home after a night out and all that .

Although I think ultimately that might fall into the hands of the DFT who can then use falling passenger numbers as an excuse for ending evening services earlier .

Well mate fair enough, I was going off what Moonshot said that he had seen more people with anytime tickets. Different horses for different courses or what have you.

 

[muz379]

one thing I do think could potentially be a big loss of revenue is the lack of ticket checks on a lot of busy peak services and the possibility that a lot of people could be travelling from unmanned stations to other unmanned stations during the peak ,

I think you might find there are some switched on commuters who are of the persuasion that if challenged will buy a ticket but otherwise wont buy a ticket

Its impossible for the guard to get down them and check tickets because they are that full and standing

whats needed IMO is either more revenue staff at usually unmanned stations just during the peak times or traveling revenue inspectors with a penalty fare scheme so people are deterred from trying to travel for free during peak times .

 

[fowler9]

one thing I do think could potentially be a big loss of revenue is the lack of ticket checks on a lot of busy peak services and the possibility that a lot of people could be travelling from unmanned stations to other unmanned stations during the peak ,

I think you might find there are some switched on commuters who are of the persuasion that if challenged will buy a ticket but otherwise wont buy a ticket

Its impossible for the guard to get down them and check tickets because they are that full and standing

whats needed IMO is either more revenue staff at usually unmanned stations just during the peak times or traveling revenue inspectors with a penalty fare scheme so people are deterred from trying to travel for free during peak times .

I think we should go mad and ensure that our trains, at least our long distance premium services, are not that overcrowded that the train manager can't check tickets. It seems to work well in other countries.

 

[yorksrob]

I personally think it has been proven that what Northern said all along which is that not many people will actually be effected by it because most travelers at that time are using a season or anytime return already . Which means the changing of restrictions on off peak tickets hasn't raised them that much money in the long run .
That is mirrored by my own experience of only having to perform a handful of excesses during the last month that this has been in operation .

If it's only affecting a handful of people, it can't be raising riches beyond the dreams of avarice, so what's the point in doing it then ?

Although I think ultimately that might fall into the hands of the DFT who can then use falling passenger numbers as an excuse for ending evening services earlier .

I wouldn't put it past that lot. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

 

[snail]

I've not found this to be the case. It seems to be pure spin to mask a bad policy.

And countering your sample of 1 I have been able to get a seat in the evening peak between Salford Central and Wigan. Last winter I regularly had to stand to Bolton or Atherton.

 

[yorksrob]

And countering your sample of 1 I have been able to get a seat in the evening peak between Salford Central and Wigan. Last winter I regularly had to stand to Bolton or Atherton.

Perhaps you can have it in Manchester then. Be a nice excuse to turn it into a tramway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps you can have it in Manchester then. Be a nice excuse to turn it into a tramway.

Hush now, you never know when the Metrolink planners at TfGM are reading these threads and that idea of yours might just be "the very something" to keep them occupied, as the Airport line is opening on Monday, 3rd November...

 

[Starmill]

I haven't seen a single member of staff dealing with the restrictions correctly onboard yet.

A train that leaves Leeds just before the end of the restrictions to Skipton seems to have a lot of passengers who have Shipley tickets. Anyway the guard was accepting all and any off-peak tickets on it one day, the next somebody with a ticket to Skipton was 'let off just this once' despite it not having these restrictions.

A number of people working in ticket offices have stumbled at one of my requests too - even for tickets whose restrictions have not changed - trying to ask me if I am going to use it between certain times, but then not being sure if I can or cannot do this because the journey does not involve a central station, or not knowing if the restrictions are for the same times in Manchester and Yorkshire or if they apply in the same way. More than once I have been issued an Anytime ticket (I did not know the price - so that has taught me a lesson to always know what price the ticket I am buying is, others clearly can't be trusted) more than once and on some very flimsy reasoning eg. being told "There are no off-peak tickets available for journeys from West Yorkshire to outside West Yorkshire." Insisting on a non-issue and a card refund wasn't great. My new approach is to ask for a ticket specifically by name and if restrictions are mentioned I just say "Yes, yes - I know all about that." or similar. Once the clerk replied "Oh, well that's good - because I don't!"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And countering your sample of 1 I have been able to get a seat in the evening peak between Salford Central and Wigan. Last winter I regularly had to stand to Bolton or Atherton.

Don't imagine for one minute that this was the intention of the policy...

If it had been, restrictions like those in the West Midlands might have been imposed:

By any train except not valid
Mon - Fri on any train
departing Birmingham New
Street, Birmingham Snow_Hill,
Birmingham Moor Street, Five
Ways or Jewellery Quarter
between 1635 and 1800
inclusive.

The afternoon/evening
restriction does not apply if
passengers hold tickets for
through journeys i.e. if a
change of train is required
at one of the five stations
listed above to complete their
journey.

That's for Return portions of tickets to Birmingham. Just replace the named stations with Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent and Slaford Central.

Why wasn't that what was implemented?

I also rather liked Barry Doe's article about how Northern's restriction text contains a paradox - an inescapable self-conflicting element that is well-demonstrated by that last paragraph London Midland have included about through journeys where a change of train is required after the journey was begun at a valid time but the second train leaves after the restricted time. Another of London Midland's restriction codes provides a tidy summary of what I am referring to:

A connecting service can be
used to complete a journey
begun at a valid time.

Why hasn't Northern done it this way? Isn't that exceptionally harsh? You can stay on a direct train after 1600, so why not permit changing trains to complete that journey? Just how well would someone who uses a connecting train to complete a journey begun before 1600 and refused to pay the excess go on in court?

Pure and simple Laides and Gentlemen - screw as much money as possible out of your customers, no matter how badly it means treating them.

 

[muz379]

If it's only affecting a handful of people, it can't be raising riches beyond the dreams of avarice, so what's the point in doing it then ?

Perhaps the DFT overestimated the number of us up North who went to the pub on the train in our flat caps between the hours of 16:01 and 18:29 .

No in all seriousness I think its just dogma , the DFT wants to reduce the subsidy , and is willing to put forward anything and everything to try and do it .

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps the DFT overestimated the number of us up North who went to the pub on the train in our flat caps between the hours of 16:01 and 18:29 .

No in all seriousness I think its just dogma , the DFT wants to reduce the subsidy , and is willing to put forward anything and everything to try and do it .

I agree entirely.

 

[yorkie]

yorksrob - have you got your refund yet? If not, can I suggest you charge them a £10 admin fee. If they do not pay it, how about a £80 "Failure to charge correctly" notice?

Does anyone have a copy of one of Northern's "Failure to pay" notice, so I can create a template please?

If they refuse, perhaps you could make a money claim online as well as contact the ever useless Passenger Focus.

 

[Deerfold]

I haven't seen a single member of staff dealing with the restrictions correctly onboard yet.

A train that leaves Leeds just before the end of the restrictions to Skipton seems to have a lot of passengers who have Shipley tickets. Anyway the guard was accepting all and any off-peak tickets on it one day, the next somebody with a ticket to Skipton was 'let off just this once' despite it not having these restrictions.

Skipton to Leeds CDR? If so that *is* covered by the new restrictions. If not, I'm not sure what you're describing.

 

[Starmill]

Skipton to Leeds CDR? If so that *is* covered by the new restrictions. If not, I'm not sure what you're describing.

I know. I have explained that terribly, my apologies. Please disregard the above. Basically the conversation embodies the confusion: most ticket offices in West Yorkshire have a sign up that says the restrictions apply within WY only, and that's what I've been told and heard a few people saying, forgetting of course the Skipton and Knaresborough extensions. I think what had happened was the passenger used the ticket machine at Leeds to buy their ticket, having it in mind that it wasn't restricted, and then managed to convince the guard of that based on their experience. The guard was initially correct, but of course neither of them seemed to know it. All in all very bizarre. The main thrust of my point is that it's created a lot of complaints and 'moaning' to onboard and ticket office staff especially when people are all like "But I always pay £x for this journey why are you trying to make me pay more?" - but worse than that confusion has been the ruling emotion. Hardly surprising really when the restrictions are so painfully illogical!

I think the advice I might give to anyone in future is to always buy the cheapest ticket they possibly can and then it can be excessed to the correct one as necessary if you do get caught by the restrictions. It's not like anyone who gets oversold an Anytime either on purpose or accidentally is going to get a refund of the difference if they didn't actually need one, as I have almost found out to my cost several times now. It's a shame really, because I'm essentially being forced into a position where I simply cannot trust the person who works in the ticket office or a member of revenue staff on a train to be correct, because my experience of their correct understanding of the rules is that it is very very low. I'm deeply saddened that a culture of suspicion, mistrust and a sense of money-grabbing has been inspired by these changes, and I think that makes the railway a worse place for everyone.

 

[Deerfold]

I think the advice I might give to anyone in future is to always buy the cheapest ticket they possibly can and then it can be excessed to the correct one as necessary if you do get caught by the restrictions. It's not like anyone who gets oversold an Anytime either on purpose or accidentally is going to get a refund of the difference if they didn't actually need one, as I have almost found out to my cost several times now. It's a shame really, because I'm essentially being forced into a position where I simply cannot trust the person who works in the ticket office or a member of revenue staff on a train to be correct, because my experience of their correct understanding of the rules is that it is very very low. I'm deeply saddened that a culture of suspicion, mistrust and a sense of money-grabbing has been inspired by these changes, and I think that makes the railway a worse place for everyone.

That's good advice - except when the cheapest ticket for your day is a Day Rover (which is true for me off peak if all I'm doing is bus to station and back, train to Leeds and back).

 

[northwichcat]

Something from TfGM on the Evening Peak restrictions:

As detailed in the previous Committee Report, the introduction of Evening
Peak Restrictions (EPR) by Northern Rail was a part of the interim
franchise agreement (Direct Award) in order to raise additional revenue.
EPR was implemented from 8 September across Greater Manchester on
Northern Rail and other operators’ services, where the tickets are priced
by Northern Rail. The restrictions now apply to all journeys, irrespective of
direction, departing between 1601 and 1829, Monday to Friday (excluding
bank holidays) across the 5 PTE areas. There was already such a
restriction in place on Merseyside. Detailed information on EPR is again
reproduced in Appendix B.
2.6 TfGM was not party to the negotiations between the DfT and Northern Rail
that led to the decision to implement Evening Peak Restrictions. However,
TfGM assisted Northern Rail in the delivery of the Evening Peak
Restrictions to ensure that comprehensive information was made available
to the travelling public.

2.7 In addition, TfGM continued to work closely with Northern Rail to address
concerns over multi-modal ticketing and communicating these changes to
its customers. A number of letters regarding EPR have been received and
we have communicated these views to Northern Rail and will continue to
do so. The two major concerns are that the restrictions apply;

• To inbound (i.e. to more lightly loaded contra-peak flow) services
between 1601 and 1829. This could result in an adverse impact on the
evening economy of Greater Manchester (and other cities and towns)
and is a situation not found elsewhere in the UK such as in London;

• To breaks of journey; even when the journey has started well before
1601. Again this is not universally found elsewhere and could mean,
for example, a person with an off-peak single from Bolton to Guide
Bridge changing trains in Manchester, may not be allowed to continue
their journey until after 1829, unless they pay for a new ticket.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...l_rail_service_performance_and_station_issues

 

[maniacmartin]

TfGM have got the wrong definition of what a break of journey is

 

[Howardh]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/11530931.Dale_Haslam_s_train_blog__Knowing_rights_on_the_rails/

Also with regards to Northern Rail someone posed a question to thm with regards to off-peak travel that ends up in peak-time travel. Such as travelling before 4pm but a change of train is required - Northern expresses that a proper Peak Tie, or Anytime Ticket would be required, but if it was a direct route the of the off-peak would suffice - which against goes against all passenger charters/laws which clearly states that once a journey begins before peak time and a change of train is required to complete the journey they it is classed as the same journey and as such no peak-time ticket is required because the journey started before peak time!!!

Therefore Northern Rail are breaking the law on both cases!!!!

Imagine you are in Gtr. Manchester, 3.30pm (peak starts at 4.01)

You are going from A to C. within G. Mcr.

A direct train - you would use an off-peak ticket

If you have to change at B, to get to C which would be after the 4.01 deadline, you need an anytime ticket (for the whole journey)?

That's how I read it, but this newspaper article suggests that is not the case, that an off peak between two named stations will suffice, and on Northern's facebook page there are also comments there.

Are Northern making up their own rules and regulations which are contrary to those Laws of the land?

To be frank the whole thing is a bloody mess and no-one seems to know one rule from another. Who is right, and how can it be proved they are right (ie. Statute)?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Short answer: It depends how the restriction is worded.

Example: An Off-Peak ticket from London to Birmingham (route Any Permitted) is not valid on trains scheduled to depart London Euston between 0430 and 0925, nor between 1501 and 1844. As such, you couldn't take a 1400 or so train from London to Watford Junction and then a 1600 train on to Birmingham.

In the case of the Northern afternoon peak restrictions, the wording is as follows (or a variant thereof, depending on the morning restriction): Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

Thus, yes you can use an Off-Peak ticket on a through train departing at 1600, but not on a journey involving a change of train between 1601 and 1829.

 

[yorkie]

I appreciate this thread is about a comment (not the "final comment" though ) rather than the article, which is utterly awful advice, but I will stick to your question about the comment by "nigella farrage" and not go off-topic ranting about how clueless Dave Haslam is and how journalists these days tend to be uneducated and lazy...

She's right to say that "...Northern expresses that a ... Anytime Ticket would be required, but if it was a direct [train] .... the off-peak would suffice....."; Northern do indeed charge a premium to change trains on journeys that match your criteria of being within Greater Manchester, if the change of trains is within "peak times".

This is rather unusual and no other operator that I know of does this.

I agree it might not be lawful; indeed Barry Doe wrote an article about this in a recent edition of RAIL, and he believes it to be unlawful.

I'd love to see someone wipe the seemingly permanent smile off Alex Hynes face by winning in court. Anyone have plenty of cash and access to a good solicitor?

This has been discussed extensively in Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions so I will merge this into that thread.

 

[PG]

Not sure I know the (correct) answer - I'd be interested to hear what more knowledgeable folk think

Using an actual example : Moston to Greenfield off peak day single £4.10

Booking engine (I'm using eastcoast) allows the 1452 departure (with a 49 min break at Manchester Victoria [MCV]) arriving at 1620 - departure from MCV is 1557
but disallows the 1553 departure (21 min break at MCV) arriving at 1649 as departure from MCV is at 1623

A look on the excellent brfares.com shows the restriction code ND applies to this ticket :

Restriction Code: ND
OUTWARD TRAVEL Valid on trains timed to depart between 0930 - 1600 inc and from 1830 onwards.

​

to my mind this means so long as I get on at my origin station ie Moston before 1600 then I'm within the conditions of the ticket - once I arrive at MCV am I meant to check the time of my next connecting departure - and thus in the above example twiddle my thumbs, or down a refreshing beverage or two , until the next available departure after 1830 from MCV ??

Break of journey for the purpose of changing trains appears to be allowed so, again from brfares.com :

UNPUBLISHED RESTRICTIONS Intended for use by computerised journey planners and online booking systems.
To determine whether a journey is permitted, the time restrictions shown below are applied to:

• The origin and destination of the journey
• All locations where a passenger changes trains during a journey
• The final destination of all trains travelled on during a journey
  (whether or not the passenger is travelling to that final destination)

Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and
resuming a journey at an intermediate station.

Restriction Code: ND
OFF-PEAK DAY Outward Journey
Summary:VALID BETWEEN 0930-1600 INC AND FROM 1830 M-F.
Time Restrictions
Restriction(s) below apply every day
Not valid to depart any location 0230–0929 on any TOC
Not valid to depart any location 1601–1829 on any TOC​

the text
Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station
seems to back up my assumption that I don't need to concern myself with the departure time of my connection from MCV - however digging about on nationalrail.co.uk shows :

Restriction Code ND Applicable days Mondays to Fridays
Outward Travel Not valid on trains timed to depart before 09:30 or after 16:00 and before 18:30.
The restriction after 16:00 and before 18:30 includes any connecting train departing during this period (or re-commencing your journey following a break of journey) within the following areas:

• Transport for Greater Manchester area plus Alderley Edge, Birchwood, Burscough Bridge, Buxton, Chapel-en-le-Firth, Disley, Dove Holes, Earlestown, Furness Vale, Handforth, Hoscar, New Mills Central, New Mills Newtown, Newton-le-Willows, Padgate, Parbold, Styal, Warrington Bank Quay, Warrington Central, Whaley Bridge and Wilmslow

So we seem to have the absurd situation that, as CyrusWuff says, travel on a through train is ok but any journey requiring a change of train isn't ... unless anyone knows otherwise...

 

[yorkie]

DSo we seem to have the absurd situation that, as CyrusWuff says, travel on a through train is ok but any journey requiring a change of train isn't ... unless anyone knows otherwise...

I agree it is absurd, but that is exactly how Northern have worded it, and I'd very much like to see it tested in court (by someone competent, as we'd want to be winning this).

And those who think Northern won't prosecute need to think again. They have prosecuted over 10p before, and have plenty of taxpayer subsidy to do so again.

 

[PG]

Having had a brief glance at the merged thread [yikes!!] I can only concur with what others have said, that at the very least, some wording to the effect of that used in the West Midlands or by London Midland
"a connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time"
should have been included.

As for someone to test this out in a court, maybe that chap [wasn't he a lawyer IIRC ??] who argued the toss with FCC re St.Albans tickets might fancy a new challenge...

 

[Starmill]

I like TfGM's point that the situation is not universal. Isn't it unique?

 

[Howardh]

Just looking at the National Rail website, no matter what time you travel (after 9.30am) the single fare Bolton - Buxton remains the same the rest of the day. Now, I thought Buxton was one of the hit-list stations?

Can anybody try that to see if I'm wrong? Bolton to Buxton, weekday, leaving in the afternoon?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree it is absurd, but that is exactly how Northern have worded it, and I'd very much like to see it tested in court (by someone competent, as we'd want to be winning this).

And those who think Northern won't prosecute need to think again. They have prosecuted over 10p before, and have plenty of taxpayer subsidy to do so again.

Isn't there an underlying law regarding fairness (should that be fareness ) to the consumer which over-rides company rules? I.m nothing like a lawyer and haven't a clue of the exact wording, but it's something like unfair trading or something.
Think Virgin used it to get Sky to reduce their wholesale price for sports, but I really am in the dark.
But someone on this forum will know for sure!!

 

[Deerfold]

Having had a brief glance at the merged thread [yikes!!] I can only concur with what others have said, that at the very least, some wording to the effect of that used in the West Midlands or by London Midland
"a connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time"
should have been included.

As for someone to test this out in a court, maybe that chap [wasn't he a lawyer IIRC ??] who argued the toss with FCC re St.Albans tickets might fancy a new challenge...

Booking engines have certainly been programmed not to allow changes after the peak timing kicks in.

Looking at Keighley to Leeds, the 1520 and 1530 direct trains from Keighley are allowed. The 1544 changing at Shipley onto the 1609 is not allowed but the direct train at 1600 is.

Bonkers.

Just looking at the National Rail website, no matter what time you travel (after 9.30am) the single fare Bolton - Buxton remains the same the rest of the day. Now, I thought Buxton was one of the hit-list stations?

Can anybody try that to see if I'm wrong? Bolton to Buxton, weekday, leaving in the afternoon?

Bolton to Buxton does not have the new restriction. An off-peak single is valid any time after 0930, saving a whopping 10p over the peak fare.

 

[button_boxer]

Just looking at the National Rail website, no matter what time you travel (after 9.30am) the single fare Bolton - Buxton remains the same the rest of the day. Now, I thought Buxton was one of the hit-list stations?

Buxton has evening peak restrictions on tickets to/from Manchester but not on tickets to/from elsewhere in GM. Which seems somewhat pointless as Buxton to Salford Crescent is priced the same as Buxton to Manchester, but doesn't have the evening restriction.

 

[northwichcat]

Buxton has evening peak restrictions on tickets to/from Manchester but not on tickets to/from elsewhere in GM. Which seems somewhat pointless as Buxton to Salford Crescent is priced the same as Buxton to Manchester, but doesn't have the evening restriction.

It's an error in the system as Buxton-Salford is supposed to be included: http://www.northernrail.org/tickets...um=Offline&utm_campaign=Off-peak-restrictions

 

[reb0118]

This is also the case on Scotrail with regard to connecting at Edinburgh, Haymarket, & Glasgow during the evening peak with an off peak day return ticket. That said, whilst the booking engines implement the restriction correctly, staff on the ground have a much more laissez faire attitude to this. In fact I'm sure that there is a local easement in force at Edinburgh & Haymarket. There is no easement required at Glasgow Central because the staff there deny any knowledge of evening restrictions per se!

 

[greatkingrat]

That is different though. Scotrail only restrict the leg out of Glasgow/Edinburgh, there is no restriction on trains into Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The Northern restrictions apply to both legs when a change of trains is necessary.

 

[button_boxer]

It's an error in the system as Buxton-Salford is supposed to be included: http://www.northernrail.org/tickets...um=Offline&utm_campaign=Off-peak-restrictions

In which case we buy to Clifton, which is also £9.90 CDR and has restriction B6 (any train after 0814).