Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[richardio123]

Posted this yesterday in the merseyrail new rolling stock thread. I think that the ones from moorfields pretty much prove that your not going to be able to fit a raised pan down there.

Im sure you will be able to fit a panto and the line through there.

If you look at tram and piccadilly "yes I know its not a train but the pantograph system is the similar"

Sorry off topic I apologise

 

[snowball]

The clearance from the wire to the tunnel ceiling and from the wire to the vehicle roof would have to be higher for 25kV than for 750V.

On the other hand, looking at some of the Merseyrail pics, you could gain some space by removing the station ceiling cladding panels above where the wire and pantograph would be.

 

[dysonsphere]

Further evidence that Picasa no longer likes you? The above link doesn't work for me, nor do links from your previous posts that have worked before. (They may be textually identical to the above link, I haven't checked.)

nope thats an error 404

 

[HSTEd]

In that situation over half the power supplied from the feeder is wasted as heat in the rail, plus the train won't be able to regenerate. This is a worst case but averaging along the length of the route the power required is still probably 30% more than for an AC system.

Indeed, however with such a lightly used scheme as a branch line with a handful of relatively low speed multiple units running on it - the energy costs are likely to pale into insignificance compared to the installation costs. Which are drastically lower than they would be for an AC installation that had substation feeders.
Also during off peak hours you could always design the substation to reduce its output voltage to more standard levels closer to the nominal value to allow a modicum of regeneration. But I do not believe regeneration in rural settings would outweigh the savings from fewer substations further apart.

You also have to consider what happens if the one feeder station is out of use or loses its supply, which I think means the each one would need twice the rating you give.

The emergency response would be likely to instruct the signaller to instruct the drivers to limit power use to notch 1-2 to clear the affected section.
Some modicum of infeeding from Ormskirk and Southport can be provided, so hopefully the surviving station would be able to clear the line.

If the substation is out for maintenance than an obvious option would be to short form trains to only 3 carriages. (As I believe Merseyrail insist on maintaining two seperate units with the replacement fleet - otherwise you would likely have to terminate trains short).

And have you allowed for the resistance of the return path through the running rails?

Ooops, however this is not necessarily massively problematic as resistance of the return rails can be reduced not only by fitting aluminium cables in parallel with the rails but also by the positioning of multiple earth bonding stakes along the route.
Even with earth/return resistance it seems likely that two substations at Burscough and Southport would be able to easily handle the supply. I make Burscough-Southport only 11km.

The Delta Rail report suffered from considering branch lines in (literal) isolation, whereas in reality they would almost always be connected to an electrified main line. That's not a criticism of the expert former colleagues of mine who wrote it, but of the remit they no doubt had from DfT.

Indeed, but there are several situations where branch lines will not be connected to the 25kV system in the near future, and may even be connected directly to the 750V system. With the debacle seizing up the 25kV electrification programme at the moment we have no clear idea what will happen.

However if the route is electrified at 25kV to Preston or Wigan it effectively becomes part of the larger WCML/NW electrified network and shares its power accordingly. I think we would all want that to happen and if Ormskirk-Southport is electrified it is highly likely that at least one connection to the WCML would be electrified either at the same time or within the lifetime of the new 750V equipment

While I am one of the most vocal supporters of electrification on this forum (indeed I wish we would pursue total electrification as a matter of urgency) I am not so sure that we will do so soon.
The problems in the existing schemes are building up rapidly and will threaten the future of the programme.
The low capital cost of a 750V scheme is a big selling point in my opinion in this climate.
Its not technically the best, but it is considerably better than a diesel railway.

If this network did need to be on a separate phase, then feeder stations can now be fitted with inverters, similar to a traction package, to provide single phase current with a balanced load on the three incoming phases. If one of these is provided then single train could be supplied from a 33kV grid at 25kV just as easily as at 750V - in fact more easily as the lower losses mean less power demand in total.

While that is technically possible I am not sure that is the best solution.

It might work out cheaper in maintenance and procurement terms to simply erect a ~12km pole line fitted with a single phase 25kV (or 25kV-0-25kV split phase) circuit between Burscough and the WCML at Coppul.
It would be no less reliable than a single substation (and I doubt you would be able to justify 2 25kV substations) - probably better as the WCML is far less likely to suffer a total power outage and a simple transmission line at a relatively low voltage and power is likely highly reliable.

The same might hold for other detached sections of railway in rural areas.

 

[snowball]

nope thats an error 404

I know it's an error 404, that was the point of my post. I also get an error 404 if I go back in the thread to previous posts by LDECRexile and click on links in those posts to his pictures - links which worked for me in the recent past.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The wires between Ordsall Lane and Victoria amount to a single line.
A southern earth wire runs out at Deal St.
A northern set of wires starts at Salford Central and runs to within 30 yards of the platforms at Victoria, some of it already connected to registration arms.

At Earlestown the 2nd portal is East of the station among the old OHLE.

 

[507 001]

Im sure you will be able to fit a panto and the line through there.

If you look at tram and piccadilly "yes I know its not a train but the pantograph system is the similar"

Sorry off topic I apologise

There are different tolerances for 25kv heavy rail overhead and 750v light rail overhead.
For example, Cheetham hill road bridge has been wired for metro link since 1992 with the track pretty much at the same height as the mainline.
For the L&M electrification the track bed of the mainline had to be lowered for the wires to go under the bridge.
I estimate from those pictures that there might be 12 inches clearance at the most.

The clearance from the wire to the tunnel ceiling and from the wire to the vehicle roof would have to be higher for 25kV than for 750V.

On the other hand, looking at some of the Merseyrail pics, you could gain some space by removing the station ceiling cladding panels above where the wire and pantograph would be.

Don't forget though that the station tunnels are considerably wider than the normal tunnels. So yes whilst it might be possible to wire the stations you wouldn't get very far.

As posted in the Merseyrail new stock thread, I really don't get the obsession on this forum with wiring Merseyrail!

 

[LDECRexile]

The wires between Ordsall Lane and Victoria amount to a single line.
A southern earth wire runs out at Deal St.
A northern set of wires starts at Salford Central and runs to within 30 yards of the platforms at Victoria, some of it already connected to registration arms.

At Earlestown the 2nd portal is East of the station among the old OHLE.

I will incorporate the Salford info and de-correct the portal info this evening. Goodness knows how I didn't notice it to the east, too busy looking at trees to see the wood, no doubt.

I have given up on Picasa, but it is likely to be days before I can get much onto Flickr, I'm off to Llandudno tomorrow.

 

[adsteamfan]

Travelling along the M6 near Ashton-in-Makerfield today I noticed that the handrailing on the bridge has been modified to include returns outwards, each of about a yard wide. These are positioned above the hard shoulder on both carrigeways and at either side of the bridge so I would guess that this is in preparation for the missing bases and steelwork.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I will incorporate the Salford info and de-correct the portal info this evening. Goodness knows how I didn't notice it to the east, too busy looking at trees to see the wood, no doubt.
I have given up on Picasa, but it is likely to be days before I can get much onto Flickr, I'm off to Llandudno tomorrow.

Just to amplify my earlier post:
Having seen the Victoria setup from the other direction there is a 3rd (catenary) wire running form Deal St almost to Ordsall Lane on the Up (eastbound) Chat Moss line.
Considering the supposed problems there, they are making good progress.

I counted 8 masts up on the north side of the layout between Huyton Jn and Roby Jn.
Definite progress.

 

[DJH1971]

Just to amplify my earlier post:
Having seen the Victoria setup from the other direction there is a 3rd (catenary) wire running form Deal St almost to Ordsall Lane on the Up (eastbound) Chat Moss line.
Considering the supposed problems there, they are making good progress.

I counted 8 masts up on the north side of the layout between Huyton Jn and Roby Jn.
Definite progress.

Totally agree, but still waiting for Network Rail to come clean.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Totally agree, but still waiting for Network Rail to come clean.

Is there any chance at all that they are hanging fire because there is a slight chance of completing on time. A bit of extra weekend overtime here and there, a run of good weather etc ? Or has a snowflake more chance of surviving in hell?

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any chance at all that they are hanging fire because there is a slight chance of completing on time. A bit of extra weekend overtime here and there, a run of good weather etc ? Or has a snowflake more chance of surviving in hell?

TPE sources are reportedly worried Victoria won't be ready for April so I'd suggest not a chance on time. Remember the whole thing is supposed to be live next month.

What's not going to help is NR Mentor is damaged meaning they can't currently test as planned.

 

[snowball]

Totally agree, but still waiting for Network Rail to come clean.

Is there any chance at all that they are hanging fire because there is a slight chance of completing on time. A bit of extra weekend overtime here and there, a run of good weather etc ? Or has a snowflake more chance of surviving in hell?

I think we should remember that the document we're waiting for - the September 30 update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan - is a national document of about 166 pages and is not focussed specifically on NW electrification phase 2. All it will have to say on that subject will be confined to a few sentences and a few table entries.

 

[DJH1971]

TPE sources are reportedly worried Victoria won't be ready for April so I'd suggest not a chance on time. Remember the whole thing is supposed to be live next month.

What's not going to help is NR Mentor is damaged meaning they can't currently test as planned.

Should have been more weekend blockades in place, if they knew that this was going to happen.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we should remember that the document we're waiting for - the September 30 update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan - is a national document of about 166 pages and is not focussed specifically on NW electrification phase 2. All it will have to say on that subject will be confined to a few sentences and a few table entries.

Interestingly I downloaded the June 30 update on July 2 - only 2 days after the end of the quarter.
Maybe the September 30 one is causing a bit more headscratching...

 

[DJH1971]

Maybe the September 30 one is causing a bit more headscratching...

And more sweating....

 

[Class377/5]

Should have been more weekend blockades in place, if they knew that this was going to happen.

It appears they didn't know about the delays.

Mentor was damaged in recent dewirement at Peterborough so there's been no time to re-arrange things.

 

[DJH1971]

It appears they didn't know about the delays.

Mentor was damaged in recent dewirement at Peterborough so there's been no time to re-arrange things.

They should have had some sort of back up plan to begin with.

 

[Class377/5]

They should have had some sort of back up plan to begin with.

Its specialist equipment. You really want millions spent on something they may never need?

 

[8A Rail]

Just to amplify my earlier post:
Having seen the Victoria setup from the other direction there is a 3rd (catenary) wire running form Deal St almost to Ordsall Lane on the Up (eastbound) Chat Moss line.
Considering the supposed problems there, they are making good progress.

I counted 8 masts up on the north side of the layout between Huyton Jn and Roby Jn. Definite progress.

I was at Huyton Station / Junction this evening and I noted the additional masts already indicated. However on closer inspection at the end of the footpath ending towards Huyton Junction, I have concluded that one or two masts need to be located on the other side of the Bus Station Boundary Fence which currently NR don't have access too although it has confirmed they can purchase the land. If this is the case, then unless something happens in the near future then I cannot see any wires being up in this area before December.

Also noted that the contractors (Buckingham's) have left the Huyton Station worksite, certainly no huts, tools, vehicles etc in the vicinity, although there seems to be some work still outstanding. All very strange.

 

[edwin_m]

The New Measurement Train has OLE geometry measuring capability - is this equivalent to Mentor? The other issue is load bank testing but I think they did Manchester to Parkside by just running some trains, and I'm not sure if Mentor does load bank testing anyway.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought two Pendolinos did the load bank testing passing each other.

Orginally it was supposed to involve a Class 92 with its 'dirty' power collection (or something similar) but I don't think that ever happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Should have been more weekend blockades in place, if they knew that this was going to happen.

Knowing the management of possessions lately where I am I doubt NR would have had the foresight. In any event the TOCs would have beaten them down to just the ones they have had / forthcoming.

 

[snowball]

I was at Huyton Station / Junction this evening and I noted the additional masts already indicated. However on closer inspection at the end of the footpath ending towards Huyton Junction, I have concluded that one or two masts need to be located on the other side of the Bus Station Boundary Fence which currently NR don't have access too although it has confirmed they can purchase the land. If this is the case, then unless something happens in the near future then I cannot see any wires being up in this area before December.

Also noted that the contractors (Buckingham's) have left the Huyton Station worksite, certainly no huts, tools, vehicles etc in the vicinity, although there seems to be some work still outstanding. All very strange.

They must have, or have had, a plan for how to wire the three tracks in that area that is not dependent on assuming the land for the fourth track will be available. After all there was a lot of talk of 2016/17 for the fourth track.

Though it's conceivable that they've now switched to a different plan that does depend on the land being available.

 

[LDECRexile]

Updated spreadsheet attached below.

Re the masts needed on the North side on bus station land, I seem to remember we chewed this over a while back and Joseph Locke (I think) said they will put masts within the current boundary then uproot them when the 4th track is commissioned in 2017 or whenever it will be.

I might have it garbled of course.

 

[8A Rail]

They must have, or have had, a plan for how to wire the three tracks in that area that is not dependent on assuming the land for the fourth track will be available. After all there was a lot of talk of 2016/17 for the fourth track.
Though it's conceivable that they've now switched to a different plan that does depend on the land being available.

Well in one particular place especially were the cross over from Chat Moss down line to down slow line, there is no room for mast between slow line and up line. Likewise the fence by the up line seems to be too close have space to put a mast in, hence thinking it has got to go other side of fence.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Well in one particular place especially were the cross over from Chat Moss down line to down slow line, there is no room for mast between slow line and up line. Likewise the fence by the up line seems to be too close have space to put a mast in, hence thinking it has got to go other side of fence.

There was always (from the meeting at which the two-phase approach was agreed anyway) going to be a degree of abortive track, OLE, signalling and cable route works involved.

The three-track layout solved the issue of introducing fast electrics in 2014, and the four-track layout finishes the enhancement in time for the new 2016 timetable. The land adjacent to the bus station and telephone exchange is required by the new 90mph Up Chat Moss alignment and is the same pretty much irrespective of the arrangement of the tracks at this speed (though there are some layouts which need more land, but they were discounted).

It think three masts have to go in and come out again becuse there wasn't the space to put them anywhere else until the additional land was bought (which has happened far sooner than anyway really hoped).

 

[LDECRexile]

I have had a first stab at wanging photos onto Flickr.

Please find those from Monday 6th Oct here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157648494725811

I will welcome having howlers pointed out, with how to fix them, of course.

 

[snowball]

I have had a first stab at wanging photos onto Flickr.

Please find those from Monday 6th Oct here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157648494725811

I will welcome having howlers pointed out, with how to fix them, of course.

When I click that link a page comes up inviting me to sign in to Yahoo, or register with Yahoo, or watch a video advertising NatWest.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When I click that link a page comes up inviting me to sign in to Yahoo, or register with Yahoo, or watch a video advertising NatWest.

Ditto for me.