London bus termini in disuse

[Hophead]

Can't believe I typed 261! Obviously 208; obviously 208. I mean, it even says "208" on the street view image I linked.

 

[317 forever]

Route 43 and some 134 journeys used to terminate at Friern Barnet Town Hall. The area has to some extent been rebuilt, and so route 43 continues a little way east - I believe to Tesco's - and route 134 entirely to North Finchley.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The 307 Arkley Hotel terminus.

 

[Busaholic]

Hi,
Quite right with all of that, have we mentioned Woolwich 'Free Ferry' on the 75 road yet?
Regards
Mike

Hi Mike,
Recalling the WOOLWICH termini I knew from late 50s until early 70s brought part-pedestrianisation:-

PARSONS HILL was the terminus of the 161/A and trolleybus 696 and 698

POWIS STREET became the terminus of the trolley-replacement 96 and 195 plud 161 sometime in the 1960s

GENERAL GORDON PLACE was the terminus of the tram-replacing routes from the south 182 and 186, also the 54 and 'shorts' on the 53

THOMAS STREET (also known as the Earl of Chatham) was the terminus of 99,122/A

FREE FERRY was the sole preserve of the 75, as I think there was only space for two buses, although in previous years many other routes used it too, probably before modern traffic conditions

Did you ever work through to the Ferry, Mike? I can only remember Elmers buses on the 75 on Sundays, when it was cut back to the Royal Standard at Blackheath.

 

[Mike99]

Hi,
I worked the 54 on Saturdays through to Woolwich 'General Gordon Place' which was opposite Woolwich Arsenal Station, but I didn't work the 75's the Saturday operation had ceased before I started as a conductor in 1976
Regards
Mike
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi, In reply to Catford Cat
The 12 road worked through on a Sunday from South Croydon Garage to Shepherds Bush Green, when the route was curtailed at Norwood Junction in 1972 (12A served Peckham to South Croydon Garage, Selsdon and Riddlesdown) then journeys worked Norwood Junction to Harlesden with Park Royal shorts from Harlesden and Shepherds Bush Green, with isolated journies to and from further afield direct to Park Royal.
As regards Saturdays, late 1970's and into the 80's, the 12 road except for a few early, early/mid morning and a couple of evening journies the service from Norwood Junction terminated at Elephant & Castle, service from Dulwich 'Plough' served Oxford Circus and through to Harlesden

 

[Hophead]

(Petts Wood Station was unusual in that the 94 and 161A both terminated there, showed the same ultimate destination, but terminated on opposite sides of the railway.)

Thanks for that info. It's got me thinking....

I've got another one for the group: Petts Wood Station! Bear with me.

The 161a used to lay over approximately where the taxi rank is today. The road used to be two-way bit is is now one-way (clockwise), so the present terminus, used by rather more vehicles than the old half-hourly service ever was, is behind the street view image.

 

[317 forever]

Another is South Croydon Swan & Sugar Loaf. It is now a Tesco and route 468 terminates there, but merely displays "South Croydon".

 

[Busaholic]

Another is South Croydon Swan & Sugar Loaf. It is now a Tesco and route 468 terminates there, but merely displays "South Croydon".

The 468 terminates in a side road beside Whitgift School cricket ground. Once a year Surrey County Club plays a County Championship match there and,in the days of 40 over cricket, also a one-day match. I was lucky enough to be there on a Sunday when Surrey played Hampshire and the magnificent Shane Warne took six Surrey wickets for his best-ever one-day bowling figures and, pertinent to the post, Michael Carberry smashed seven sixes and also managed a direct hit on top of a stationary 468, just missing a front offside window. MC was a Croydon boy whom Surrey had let go, so probably had a point to prove!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 161A was also interesting in never being worked by Sidcup Garage, unlike the 161, the reason being the difficulty in getting relief crews from SP to Chislehurst, War Memorial. Garage journeys on the 161, although in the timetable, were for these reasons except, I believe, for a couple each way timed to coincide with the starting and finishing times of a girls' school a little way beyond the War Memorial. So no SP buses ever worked to Petts Wood

 

[Be3G]

Its a long time since I have seen a bus in the layby at the junction of Forest Road and Beacontree Avenue in Walthamstow although it is available for unscheduled curtailments on route 123.

Surprisingly, it's also a point for turning round the 275, although I don't know if it's ever used for that. A bit like the Caterhatch stand on the 191, which occasionally gets used by the 217 or 317 despite the stand not actually being on either of those buses' routes.

 

[Mike99]

Originally Posted by CatfordCat View Post
(Petts Wood Station was unusual in that the 94 and 161A both terminated there, showed the same ultimate destination, but terminated on opposite sides of the railway.

Norwood Junction as wel,l 197 and 12's on the south side, 196 on the north side,all displayed Norwood Junction, there must be other examples.................
Regards
Mike

 

[Antman]

Finsbury Park, although a few double deckers have come a cropper attempting that low bridge

 

[Busaholic]

Finsbury Park, although a few double deckers have come a cropper attempting that low bridge

In the 1960s the 210s always displayed 'FINSBURY PARK,Wells Terrace' on their blinds while the 19s had 'FINSBURY PARK,Plimsoll Road' on theirs, but 'shorts' on the 253 (from Manor House direction) always had Finsbury Park Station, although I can't remember in which road they stood (not Wells Terrace for sure!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by CatfordCat View Post
(Petts Wood Station was unusual in that the 94 and 161A both terminated there, showed the same ultimate destination, but terminated on opposite sides of the railway.

Norwood Junction as wel,l 197 and 12's on the south side, 196 on the north side,all displayed Norwood Junction, there must be other examples.................
Regards
Mike

When I was at school in Catford there was a regular peak hour 'short' operation on the 75 to Norwood Junction which used the 196 stand, so if you got on a bus at Penge with a Norwood Junction destination you could end up on the south side on a 12 or the north on a 75.

 

[PeterC]

A lot of regular tereminii that have gone were used for short workings. Are there still any scheduled in London? Those routes that I have known from my youth now seem to have had all short workings and variations eliminated, a great difference from rural Bucks where nearly every journey may be slightly different.

 

[Busaholic]

A lot of regular tereminii that have gone were used for short workings. Are there still any scheduled in London? Those routes that I have known from my youth now seem to have had all short workings and variations eliminated, a great difference from rural Bucks where nearly every journey may be slightly different.

Off the top of my head, the 25 and 38 for TfL's own operational reasons (the 73 used to be too in artic days, but now all cut back to Stoke Newington) plus 166, only hourly to Epsom (Surrey) but every 20 minutes as far as Banstead. Oh, and some night buses like N3. The 'heritage' 15 is another special case.

 

[CatfordCat]

A lot of regular tereminii that have gone were used for short workings. Are there still any scheduled in London? Those routes that I have known from my youth now seem to have had all short workings and variations eliminated, a great difference from rural Bucks where nearly every journey may be slightly different.

As one or two people have said in the thread, TfL policy is now that (with a very few exceptions) bus routes are all now scheduled to run end to end, without scheduled short workings or routes working in sections.

A number of points are authorised for 'curtailments' (e.g. unscheduled short turns due to late running) and all manner of things happen when there are major events that close roads.

There's a route in SE London that has a summer Sunday extension to Chartwell House - one of the very few left.

Some of the night bus routes still work on the basis of only every second or third bus running the full route - e.g. the N29 on Friday / Saturday nights - there's "only" a 10 minute headway north of Wood Green (some of us can remember a time when hardly any night bus routes ran on Saturday nights, but that's a whole new thread...)

There are a few routes that have additional school day journeys for part of the route - the 150 springs to mind, and the school day 'extra' is run by a different operator.

The 108 also has an odd allocation late evenings N Greenwich to Lewisham (in that direction only - they return empty) which is double deck - the full route has to be single deck on account of the Blackwall Tunnel's height restriction.

And on the subject of Finsbury Park, this page on the excellent "red RF" website has plenty about Finsbury Park.

 

[Busaholic]

Stroud Green,Stapleton, was the peak hour terminus of the 236, extended from Finsbury Park under the low bridges. Is this ever used by other services now? Does it still exist? The 236 I always found fascinatingly anachronistic, operated by two garages with reputations for 'stroppy' crews, Leyton and Tottenham, and actually passing the door of the stroppiest of all, Dalston, yet not operated by them. Tottenham was way off line of route and RF operation by them always seemed strange to me. Both garages vied to let the other garage do all the work, resulting in huge gaps in service followed by three or four buses nose to tail, and curtailments at any hour of day, There were even 'when working' garage journeys up through Stamford Hill!

 

[Be3G]

A lot of regular tereminii that have gone were used for short workings. Are there still any scheduled in London? Those routes that I have known from my youth now seem to have had all short workings and variations eliminated, a great difference from rural Bucks where nearly every journey may be slightly different.

Another couple of examples not already mentioned would be the 221 (Turnpike Lane to North Finchley, every other bus continuing to Edgware) and the 215 (summer extension to Lee Valley Campsite).

 

[Busaholic]

More termini in more than one place, but identical on blinds:-

Central London, probably too numerous to mention, but including Victoria and Oxford Circus. Liverpool Street used to be a good one with Finsbury Circus for the 133, Old Broad Street for the 9 and 11 and Bishopsgate u-turn for 149.

Golders Green Station - always been buses from west,east and south in station forecourt and from north in Finchley Road in layby that was used by the trolleybuses. I think when NBfL was being shown to the public it used the Finchley Rd stand.

Crystal Palace. The 654 trolleybus and 154/157 replac ement bus routes always turned at the roundabout at top of Anerley Hill in a u-turn, whereas all other routes used the Parade (and now all do, of course, inc the 157)

Brixton Station - routes from the south proceed past the station to Stockwell Road, from other directions they used to stand on offside of road opp Lambeth Town Hall, but not sure what happens now that stretch is two-way again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reading about a new 84A Metroline service from New Barnet Station (not contracted by TfL, of course, the clue being in the use of the banned suffix letter) reminded me of the former importance of this terminal in the old red/green days of London Transport buses, when several routes used to meet here. Other examples of such termini of long standing include Epping Station, Enfield Town, Watford Junction, Uxbridge Station, Kingston Station, West Croydon Bus Station and Bromley North Station, some of which still perform much the same purpose with London Country's successors.

 

[CatfordCat]

Hi,
Yep, it's been mentioned: for me, that destination meant 'home' and 'liberation' all in one. Reason? I went to the school at the other end of the 160 bus route, St Dunstan's College, Catford, and that was always the destination except on the comparatively rare occasions when a laterunner got turned back to Eltham, Southend Crecent, but that was OK cos only one stop short of home. There was never a terminus between Welling and Eltham, so I was surprised on opo conversion, first day, SM1 appeared in Eltham High Street, destination Eltham Park, Dumbreck Gardens. I lost touch with the area shortly but was sad when the 160 got diverted to Sidcup and also when Catford Garage ceased to operate the route.

A tangent, but the 160 was - until its award to Arriva - one of a very few long established routes that had been operated by one garage and one garage only. It lasted from 1938 to 2006 at TL.

The 124 (also introduced 1938) is still exclusive to TL.

I did get in to a discussion on another forum about this when the 160 went to Arriva - I think the conclusion was that the 80 might beat this - having been exclusive to Sutton Garage since 1934 (although not sure about its earlier history)

Another lost terminus occurred to me this week - "Victoria & Albert Docks" (or just "Docks" as the trolleybuses displayed it) - quite a bleak spot in the 80s before 'Docklands' - a (trolley) bus turning circle designed to deal with large numbers of buses and passengers. The turning circle has now been lost under new road construction, and buses terminate at Prince Regent DLR station instead.

 

[Busaholic]

A tangent, but the 160 was - until its award to Arriva - one of a very few long established routes that had been operated by one garage and one garage only. It lasted from 1938 to 2006 at TL.

The 124 (also introduced 1938) is still exclusive to TL.

I did get in to a discussion on another forum about this when the 160 went to Arriva - I think the conclusion was that the 80 might beat this - having been exclusive to Sutton Garage since 1934 (although not sure about its earlier history)

Another lost terminus occurred to me this week - "Victoria & Albert Docks" (or just "Docks" as the trolleybuses displayed it) - quite a bleak spot in the 80s before 'Docklands' - a (trolley) bus turning circle designed to deal with large numbers of buses and passengers. The turning circle has now been lost under new road construction, and buses terminate at Prince Regent DLR station instead.

Thanks for all that, Catford Cat. Were you a SE6 boy? I was one of the LCC grant boys at St Dunstans, not one of the paid-for by parents from Petts Wood! The 75 of course was associated with TL for almost a century (and is now again) but with an occasional interloper from another garage at weekends mainly.
You still get places where both the patterns of service and the route numbers have changed little in 70 years, and Mottingham is one such place with the 124,126 and161 still to Catford, Bromley or Chislehurst, and all three to Eltham.
Asyou say, the Docks have changed out of all recognition and for someone who only occasionally visited the area it is impossible to reconcile the vague memories to what's on the ground now. Was Custom House Tavern a terminus in the 1970s or have I imagined it? The last time I saw the place was about 30 years ago, and it was derelict then.
Maryland Station on the last RLH route, the 178, is another abandoned terminus and a route impossible to recreate now!

 

[CatfordCat]

Thanks for all that, Catford Cat. Were you a SE6 boy?

Sorry for the slow reply - I have been busy with various stuff the last few weeks

I grew up somewhere just outside the SE6 postcode, but quite close, and still have family in the area, although I'm currently outside London

A few more defunct termini that have occurred to me (I hope they haven't already been mentioned) -

Charlton, Anchor & Hope Lane (or Charlton, Woolwich Road) - a number of routes from east of Woolwich had peak hour extensions to serve the industry in the area

Silvertown Station - the 58 had a peak hour extension to Silvertown (the circle of trolleybus traction poles was largely intact in to the mid 80s)

Bromley Garage - while garage journeys on many routes ran there, it was the southern terminus at times of the 1, 47 (after the Farnborough end became the 261) and later the 261 (when the Farnborough / Orpington bit went to 'Roundabout')

Bromley Common, Crown Lane - long time terminus of the 261 after it went to Metrobus

Hayes Station (the Hayes near Bromley that is, not the one in west London) - there was a supplementary peak hour shuttle on the 119 Bromley North - Hayes Station, and some odd journeys on the 51 terminated there (with visitors to Farnborough Hospital in mind)

Kidbrooke, Ferrier Estate - the 151 from Lewisham. The B16 now continues to Kidbrooke Station

 

[Busaholic]

The Charlton terminus was also known for many years as Victoria Way, Woolwich Road. From my boyhood haunt of Well Hall Road, Eltham, I could see and get buses destined for Victoria Way, Victoria Station and both Bromleys (the Kentish one and the East London one aka Bromley-by-Bow, Edgar Road). The latter is another ex-terminus: from the 108/A you could stroll round the corner and pick up a departing RF on the 208 for Clapton Pond.

 

[LS-Colin]

I've recently discovered this site and read some of the blogs. Do any members remember the Brentwood (Robin Hood & Little John) terminus? As far as I am aware it was commonly used by route 247 and Green Line route 721. Pretty sure it is no longer used now. Can a fellow member tell me whether this was the same terminal point as Brentwood (Highwood Hospital/London Hospital Annexe), or were they two separate points/stands? Regards to all, Colin.

 

[Busaholic]

I've recently discovered this site and read some of the blogs. Do any members remember the Brentwood (Robin Hood & Little John) terminus? As far as I am aware it was commonly used by route 247 and Green Line route 721. Pretty sure it is no longer used now. Can a fellow member tell me whether this was the same terminal point as Brentwood (Highwood Hospital/London Hospital Annexe), or were they two separate points/stands? Regards to all, Colin.

I can't give you a definitive answer as I've never been to Brentwood, but I believe they were two separate termini. The 247 I'm pretty sure always used the Robin Hood and, certainly in the RCL era, the 721 was blinded to the other one, but this may well have been a later extension. The 721 was fighting for its life by this time, with traffic conditions making it unreliable, and a few extra hospital visitors at little extra cost would have been welcome. To think a route with a 10 minute peak frequency operated by top class double-deck coaches can leave no trace. Very sad.

 

[LS-Colin]

Thanks very much for your reply and thoughts Busaholic. Yes it is sad that the (once very frequent) 721 is alas no more. I do know that when it went over to RP operation and later LNC's it did show the destination to be 'Robin Hood'. I feel sure there'll be another member who can put us right. Best wishes, Colin.
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Hello Busaholic, I presume the 208 (later S2) had quite a circuitous access route to their stand at the Bromley-by-Bow terminus upon nearing journeys end from Clapton. From Fairfield Road they must've turned left to head east and stop by Bow Church. From then they probably continued east to circle the roundabout under the Bow fly-over and doubling back to stop by Bow Church (again) but this time on the westbound side. From then they would proceed left into Bromley High Street to gain access to their stand. When returning back to Clapton I presume buses proceeded eastwards from the stand to the junction of the Blackwall Tunnel northern approach, turn left to the roundabout under the Bow fly-over, turn left again and head west past Bow Church before turning right into Fairfield Road. Could /was this done in a different way?

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks very much for your reply and thoughts Busaholic. Yes it is sad that the (once very frequent) 721 is alas no more. I do know that when it went over to RP operation and later LNC's it did show the destination to be 'Robin Hood'. I feel sure there'll be another member who can put us right. Best wishes, Colin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hello Busaholic, I presume the 208 (later S2) had quite a circuitous access route to their stand at the Bromley-by-Bow terminus upon nearing journeys end from Clapton. From Fairfield Road they must've turned left to head east and stop by Bow Church. From then they probably continued east to circle the roundabout under the Bow fly-over and doubling back to stop by Bow Church (again) but this time on the westbound side. From then they would proceed left into Bromley High Street to gain access to their stand. When returning back to Clapton I presume buses proceeded eastwards from the stand to the junction of the Blackwall Tunnel northern approach, turn left to the roundabout under the Bow fly-over, turn left again and head west past Bow Church before turning right into Fairfield Road. Could /was this done in a different way?

Wow, I'm going to have to try to figure it out in my head from 208 RF days.There wasn't a Bow fly-over in those days, cos there wasn't an East Cross Route. I do remember the 208 stand facing north, the 108/A faced east and passed the 208s on the way onto their stand. I don't believe I ever went on the 208 or S2 to Bromley, only ever travelled the other way to Clapton Pond, having started my travels from my home in Eltham then the 108A bus. With the coming of the Bow flyover, it was necessary to get rid of the old terminal arrangements, hence the S2 extension to Bromley-by-Bow station, which also provided useful new links. I will try racking what's left of my brain to figure out how the 208 got to its stand.

 

[LS-Colin]

Hi again mate, seems we may share similar views about London's bus network. I too find actual workings at terminal points quite interesting. Probably like yourself I completely disagree with the dumbing down of how terminal points are shown on most bus blinds now. Not only is it poor to display the terminus in lower case (implying less importance) but it is scandalous that the actual point at the terminus (especially where there are numerous points at a particular terminus) is no longer shown on blinds. TfL respond to this by stating it keeps things simple and easy to read at a glance. This alone is a very condescending response which implies they believe the general public to be thick and will get confused if offered too much information. In their arrogance they'll obviously dispute this. Even if some members of the public are too thick to absorb more than a one or two words they should at least be able to make out the major point if it were still displayed in capital letters. You mentioned a number of locations where buses terminate in different places, Finsbury Park Station and Wandsworth are also good examples of this. In these and many other cases the reference to a landmark (a pub, a road, a fire station etc.) at the relevant point can be very helpful. Say no to this growing trend of dumbing things down. Regards, Colin.