Fined by TFL Bus for using my Southern Railway Key Card

[Row]

Hello,

I am feeling rather stressed out and fuming by what I have to go through now after receiving a letter from TFL Bus accusing me of not having a valid ticket on the bus despite having a London Travelcard loaded onto my Southern Railway Key card.

For those that do not know, the Southern Key is a card launched towards the end of last year which replaced a traditional paper ticket. You would purchase your ticket online or at the machine beforehand and it would load on to your card when you tap in on the reader. Initally, this allowed travel in the South east region of the country but also included up to the London train stations including Victoria.

There was a soft launch around the end of August this year which opened up the Key card to include travel on the London tube and buses by loading a London travelcard. (I made a thread asking about it here - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104513 as well as an email from Southern as proof that it has been opened up). I tested it out for a week just to make sure it works before committing to a year's ticket to make sure it works and yup every time I tapped on the card reader on any London bus or on the Underground I would get a green light.

So, 2 weeks ago I purchased annual season ticket on my key card from Haywards Heath to London Zones 1-6 for just over £4600. A week a go when I was on the bus one morning there was a ticket inspector checking everyone's tickets. So I showed him my key card but he had not heard of it before. I explained to him what it was and the fact it was only recently opened up to London travel. Another passenger also showed him his Key to show I wasn't making it up. The ticket inspector took a photo of my Key card as he said he will check back with his colleagues / higher ups and I agreed to give him my details. The inspector also showed me what happened when he scanned my card with his machine, it correctly read it and showed the start and end dates of my card - 15 September 2014 to 14 September 2015.

A few days ago I received a letter saying that I failed to show a valid ticket which made me incredibly angry. It's not my fault that the ticket inspector has not heard of the key card before. Either the ticket inspector lied to me and gave a fine anyway or there has been a miscommunication somewhere within TFL. I now face a fine of £40 if I pay before the end of next week, or £80 after that date. If I do not pay then, I face persecution charges. I can make an appeal before the end of next week too which I want to do but I need to make sure I plan it in advance and try to get Southern Railway to back me up and step in first.

Here is other proof that Southern Key cards are now valid in London (it seems that they waited a while before making an official press release):
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...accepting-national-rail-itso-smart-cards.html
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/globenewswire/10100054.htm
https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/faq/

Will the key smartcard work in London?

Yes, the existing London Oyster card system has been updated to also accept the key for travel.. From the 21st October 2013 the key has been accepted on all gates at London Victoria, Clapham Junction and East Croydon, you can now also load a Travelcard onto the key for use on National Rail, London Underground, DLR and buses

So far, I have phoned the Southern Key team who have escalated my call but I have not heard back from them so far. On Monday I will try to chase it up and ask them what I should do regarding the appeal and whether I can put down the name of a contact if TFL need to verify.

Annoyingly if I go on my journey history online, the Key card does not show London travel (presumably because the Key information isn't getting passed back to Southern once on the Oyster network) but I'm certain it will show up somewhere on Oyster's internal system.

I really want this appeal to be done correctly first time as nobody wants to go through additional hassle / stress. Particularly if this ends up going to court. I don't want to suck it up and pay the fine because I'm in the clear and having just paid £4600 on a valid ticket I don't see why I should pay up. More importantly my record of having a penalty needs to be cleared.

I also want to make sure this doesn't happen to myself or other passengers.

Any advice?

In the event of my appeal being cleared - what rights do I have? I absolutely want an investigation into how this has happened, who is at fault, is the inspector going to get punished? Should I be entitled to an apology from both TFL and the inspector as well as any compensation surely for the stress, time and hassle this is causing?

Thanks for your help.

Feel free to request more informationn.

 

[Mike395]

The Railway Gazette article there is pretty conclusive (plus the fact the ticket was sold to you in the first place!) - it would appear that the person dealing with your case in TfL's prosecutions department - as well as the TfL Revenue Protection staff on the bus - haven't been briefed properly or have not seen any brief that has been issued to them.

I would anticipate/hope any appeal will go through without an issue, and I (along with several other regulars in this section I'm sure) would be more than happy to proofread any appeal letter via PM . Also, if TfL don't acknowledge the mistake promptly and give adequate reassurance that they are working to train their RPIs with regards to the validity, I would also consider taking this up with London Travelwatch.

 

[najaB]

Any advice?

Two bits of advice...

First, pay the penalty fare. If you don't pay it then the situation will get worse.

Second, appeal. Based on the information you've linked, I can't see how they could say you didn't have a valid ticket.

 

[Mike395]

First, pay the penalty fare. If you don't pay it then the situation will get worse.

In this case (and assuming we have all the details, which considering the depth of the OPs post I have no reason to doubt!) I would disagree with you on this point - where it is cut-and-dry that a valid ticket was indeed presented, the hassle & delay of claiming back the money from the PF would be greater than just sending an appeal in (promptly) explaining/reiterating that The Key is now valid within the London zones when loaded with a valid Travelcard.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with Mike395 - there is no point in paying the penalty if it was issued in error as it appears from this report. I wouldn't even bother with much of an appeal - just a simple note acknowledging receipt of their letter and an assurance that any further action in the matter will be defended vigourously. No more is necessary.

I expect that your challenge by phone and your proposed follow-up call on Monday will resolve the matter.

If you do want an explanation, then request that in writing, but don't be surprised when you receive a reply written in customer service language, and which offers no explanation at all.

 

[MikeWh]

I agree with both Mike395 and DaveNewcastle, do not pay the penalty fare. I will certainly assist in any way I can. I can't see this getting to court, but TfL really are going to have red faces if it does.

 

[najaB]

I agree with both Mike395 and DaveNewcastle, do not pay the penalty fare. I will certainly assist in any way I can. I can't see this getting to court, but TfL really are going to have red faces if it does.

I bow to the collective superior knowledge. The only reason I suggested paying the PF was from reading other cases where people have rightly appealed, rather than paying, and ended up getting letters demanding costs as the appeal took longer than the deadline for paying the PF.

As a question, rather than suggestion, might it be an idea to accompany the appeal letter with a cheque just to cover all bases. In all likelihood they would return the cheque along with the 'no further action' letter.

 

[Mike395]

I'd still say no - whereas other cases are fairly complex, this one being so simple means I think it'll be sorted pretty quickly, no offer of payment required! Sending a cheque with an appeal admits that you think it's either going to be complex (which is where I'd place a lot of other correct appeals in this section) or you might be in the wrong, in my view.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I wouldn't pay the penalty either, however I wouldn't demand an investigation. The Key is new into London and of course there are a huge number of staff in London who need training on The Key and therefore the likelihood of errors being made is greater. So I would just ask for an assurance that the staff are being trained correctly and reminded that the Key is valid.

I had fun the other day at Tunbridge Wells with mine. Due to issues at London Bridge Southern tickets were being passed by South Eastern trains, got to Tunbridge Wells were there was a full ticket check in place, which because my train came in to Platform 2 and I exited the station via Platform 1 I had to go through twice. On both occasions they looked at my Keycard with bemusement, the paper record card causing even more confusion as it says "Not Valid for Travel". However on Platform 2 one of the Inspectors present realised what it was and told his colleagues to let me though and on Platform 1 the inspector once he thought about realised he knew what it was.

 

[Abpj17]

An investigation seems necessary given that when the machine scanned it, it said the ticket was valid...but a penalty was then issued ignoring what the scanner said.

 

[Busaholic]

A few days ago I received a letter saying that I failed to show a valid ticket which made me incredibly angry. It's not my fault that the ticket inspector has not heard of the key card before. Either the ticket inspector lied to me and gave a fine anyway or there has been a miscommunication somewhere within TFL. I now face a fine of £40 if I pay before the end of next week, or £80 after that date. If I do not pay then, I face persecution charges. I can make an appeal before the end of next week too which I want to do but I need to make sure I plan it in advance and try to get Southern Railway to back me up and step in first

Not sure whether you meant to say 'persecution' charges rather than 'prosecution' charges, but if not it was a Freudian slip. Please be strong and do not acquiesce. It doesn't matter whether Southern have backed you up by the end of next week or not, appeal now and give them chapter and verse. Personally, I would also remind them that if it came to court and in the event of your acquittal you could claim not only all costs incurred but a sum for defamation.I know it's a different organisation but years ago I refused to pay a British Gas bill that, quite simply, wasn't owing and I could prove this but they would neither back down nor take me to court. I think they used every debt collection agency in the whole of the U.K. over the next 2 or 3 years to write to me, most of which I ignored. After this time I got fed up and went to my local County Court and submitted a claim against B.G. for the sum they were claiming from me plus a sum for my costs in replying,etc., and by the time they had to respond I'd received a cheque for the full amount, not admitting any liability, of course. Standing up to bullies is always necessary.

 

[simple simon]

I agree with those who say not to pay the penalty fare* and to be prepared to sue for defamation of character if need be. This case sounds so provable that any "no win no fee" lawyer worth their salt should be willing to represent you.

It really is not good enough that staff have not been properly trained with respect of these Smartcards; if you allow yourself to be walked over then the same will happen to others as well.

*I see no harm in writing to them, telling them why you refuse to pay their unjustified demand and complaining about being treated as a fares dodger. Be assertive (and of course polite), and also ask for reasonable compensation for your time and expenses in writing. If you can include any photocopies of paperwork proving that you bought a ticket that was advertised as being valid for your intended journeys then you would do well to include this as well.

At no time offer an apology - for anything. You have nothing for which to apologise. Instead it would be reasonable to ask for an apology from them!

Simon

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As a question, rather than suggestion, might it be an idea to accompany the appeal letter with a cheque just to cover all bases. In all likelihood they would return the cheque along with the 'no further action' letter.

No!
At the risk of repeating my advice to Row, do not offer any payment towards the penalty. You are not at fault and so should not be making any offer of recompense.

The only reason I suggested paying the PF was from reading other cases where people have rightly appealed, rather than paying, and ended up getting letters demanding costs as the appeal took longer than the deadline for paying the PF.

I wonder what cases you have been reading?, and what were their outcomes? I'm curious. But it is of no consequence to Row. We don't advise innocent defendants to make payments to their accusers.

At no time offer an apology - for anything. You have nothing for which to apologise. Instead it would be reasonable to ask for an apology from them!

Agreed (though I would not expect much substance to any apology received).

 

[Via Bank]

Just to echo the others' advice here: you should appeal, politely refusing to pay, enclosing printouts/links to online information showing that The Key/ITSO cards can contain Travelcards. (A screen grab or printout of your Key account, showing a valid Travelcard held for that period, would be sensible too.)

At no point should you apologise. Be polite and diplomatic, but firm—although rudeness never gets anyone anywhere, you've got a right to be cross if you've been issued an incorrect penalty fare. Do not send any money.

 

[Busaholic]

Just to echo the others' advice here: you should appeal, politely refusing to pay, enclosing printouts/links to online information showing that The Key/ITSO cards can contain Travelcards. (A screen grab or printout of your Key account, showing a valid Travelcard held for that period, would be sensible too.)

At no point should you apologise. Be polite and diplomatic, but firm—although rudeness never gets anyone anywhere, you've got a right to be cross if you've been issued an incorrect penalty fare. Do not send any money.

Be icily polite and firm. No need to issue threats but you could mention the great inconvenience and angst this has put you through. I would, though, on the basis of not just my own experience but speaking to others say you expect them to have it resolved within a certain timeframe, ten days at most.

 

[starrymarkb]

This is really why there needs to be a national smartcard design, rather then the various names and brandings each operator applies, especially if things like travelcards are going to be loaded onto them.

 

[Row]

Hi all,

Thank you to everyone for your replies and advice. It has certainly made me feel a lot more confident about my case! With TFL I can make the appeal online (ircas.co.uk) so I'm hoping I will be able to attach screenshots of my travelcard loaded on to my Key card plus a photo of the card itself as advised.

I still feel that TFL have had plenty of time to get their inspectors ready for allowing Key cards considering the deployment must have been months in the making. Particularly as it's been available for well over a month now. May leave it to London Travelwatch later on to step in and instigate an investigation as right now I should concentrate on clearing my name.

This evening I will write up my appeal and will PM it for any suggestions. As it can be done online and if I send it asap I'm hoping I'll get a response before the deadline of a week Friday.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Busaholic]

Hi all,

Thank you to everyone for your replies and advice. It has certainly made me feel a lot more confident about my case! With TFL I can make the appeal online (ircas.co.uk) so I'm hoping I will be able to attach screenshots of my travelcard loaded on to my Key card plus a photo of the card itself as advised.

I still feel that TFL have had plenty of time to get their inspectors ready for allowing Key cards considering the deployment must have been months in the making. Particularly as it's been available for well over a month now. May leave it to London Travelwatch later on to step in and instigate an investigation as right now I should concentrate on clearing my name.

This evening I will write up my appeal and will PM it for any suggestions. As it can be done online and if I send it asap I'm hoping I'll get a response before the deadline of a week Friday.

Thanks again for your help.

If their response is online, and whatever the response is, you'd be advised to get it in writing, on their headed notepaper, which is your entitlement and, even in this day and age, carries far more weight if the matter goes further into legal documents,etc.

 

[Row]

Who should I contact on here to be granted PM privileges? Quite keen on having my appeal reviewed before sending it off.

 

[MikeWh]

Who should I contact on here to be granted PM privileges? Quite keen on having my appeal reviewed before sending it off.

Now you've made 5 posts you should get PM privileges automatically in a short while.

 

[Greenback]

You should have PM access when you next log in.

 

[radamfi]

This thread has been linked on the London's Transport Yahoo Group where it has attracted a lot of outrage. Senior people at TfL read that group so I'm pretty sure that people at the relevant departments have already had their collars felt this morning.

 

[455driver]

Am I right that this is the first thread where everyone had agreed not to pay the (incorrect) penalty fare?

 

[GodAtum]

This thread has been linked on the London's Transport Yahoo Group where it has attracted a lot of outrage. Senior people at TfL read that group so I'm pretty sure that people at the relevant departments have already had their collars felt this morning.

Interesting. I wonder who at Southern will take TFL to task.

 

[MikeWh]

Am I right that this is the first thread where everyone had agreed not to pay the (incorrect) penalty fare?

This is a very rare example of a mistake which is blindingly obvious to almost everyone.

 

[talldave]

Interesting. I wonder who at Southern will take TFL to task.

No one. My advice to Row is do not rely on Southern for anything, they exude incompetence in every interaction I've had the misfortune to have with them

If it were me I'd be logging every minute wasted on this and invoice TfL for your time.

 

[PeterC]

Am I right that this is the first thread where everyone had agreed not to pay the (incorrect) penalty fare?

I would have thought that paying the penalty could be interpreted as an admission of guilt

 

[BEUSER]

Row

Please contact be@tfl.gov.uk (subject - Southern Key card) and we will do our best to investigate and resolve this issue.

Bus Enforcement Team

 

[455driver]

This is a very rare example of a mistake which is blindingly obvious to almost everyone.

Even I know that TfL are in the wrong and that is saying something.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would have thought that paying the penalty could be interpreted as an admission of guilt

Not always, it can be made clear that payment is being made without any admission of guilt (just like a lot of 'compensation' payments are made without admission) and that payment is only being made to prevent the costs escalating.

 

[Haywain]

No one. My advice to Row is do not rely on Southern for anything, they exude incompetence in every interaction I've had the misfortune to have with them

If it were me I'd be logging every minute wasted on this and invoice them for your time.

It is difficult to see how Southern could be held responsible for any of this!