Genuine inter-TOC competition at Milton Keynes

[tractakid]

Virgin and London Midland both carry passengers between Milton Keynes and London and I believe this benefits passengers making this journey in terms of fares.

There are a lot of fares available, and recently some fares have come down, I believe due to competition.

There are operator restricted tickets for both London Midland and Virgin, and for travelcards there's even a Southern only option! Fairly recently London Midland cut the cost of their travelcard by 50p, which made them the cheapest for this ticket type. I was pleasantly surprised to see, the other day, that Virgin have matched London Midland's lower price! Which leaves poor old Southern as the least frequent but most expensive option... (besides any permitted).

I also now discover Virgin are selling advance tickets for this flow, when previously it used to be just London Midland!

As for off-peak day singles, London Midland have introduced a temporary new fare to undercut the Virgin Trains Only fare, but as I believe as London Midland are considered the main operator this cannot be offered for any longer than 12 weeks.

The downside of all this is the perhaps confusing array of options about who to travel with!

I believe someone has done a post summarising why 6 different passengers may or may not board a train to Milton Keynes during peak usage hours based on the array of restriction codes for different tickets.

But to try and sum it up...

For travelcards...

Southern

Pros: Earliest departure from Milton Keynes for an off peak ticket, at 0913. Useful if you have to be in east London early but cheap.
Offers an alternative route and destinations which may prove more convenient depending on the case
Power sockets in standard on most trains- new 5 car trains have them

Cons: Most expensive operator specific travelcard
Least frequent service
Slow, stopping service
Earliest 'last train back', particularly early at weekends

Virgin

Pros:Fastest journey time
Joint cheapest off-peak option
Cheapest anytime option (but... see below)
Often perceived to have nicer rolling stock/journey experience (others would disagree) (shop- power sockets in standard, 2+2 seating)
Seat reservations available

Cons: Later start (weekends)/earlier end of service than London Midland
Latest services are slower (as slow as a LM stopper!) and less frequent- stopping at Watford Junction and pathed more slowly
Uneven spacing of off peak London departures at Milton Keynes
(look here!) Lack of peak time departures! (pick up/drop off only, or sailing straight past)
Latest (weekday) first off-peak departure/arrival into London


London Midland

Pros: Very early and very late services offered
Fastest services are not much slower (but less frequent) than Virgin
Most services
Joint cheapest off-peak option
Earliest weekday off-peak arrival into Euston

Cons: Generally and mostly slower than Virgin
Very expensive travelling in the peak- no London Midland Only option
3+2 seating on a significant chunk of rolling stock
No power sockets in vast majority of standard class (I am yet to board a 350/3)

Advance fares: London Midland have the cheapest fare. Virgin tiers come just above the LM equivalent.

Anytime day single: Virgin Only cheaper than Any Permitted by 50p
Off Peak day Single: (apart from LMs temporary £12 fare) Virgin Only cheaper by £1
Anytime Day Return: Virgin Only £9 cheaper than Any Permitted, but can be made use of on very few departures
Off Peak Day Return: LM only and Virgin only same price, £8 cheaper than Any Permitted
Off Peak Return: Virgin Trains Only £10 cheaper than Any Permitted

Anything else to add or discuss, please say!

 

[Deerfold]

Southern

Pros: Earliest departure from Milton Keynes for an off peak ticket, at 0913. Useful if you have to be in east London early but cheap.
Offers an alternative route and destinations which may prove more convenient depending on the case

East London? Did you mean West?

 

[tractakid]

East London? Did you mean West?

yes. Please forgive me! About the only cardinal direction that can't be associated with the service!

A train could be described as a northbound Southern West London Line service.

I suppose it might have started at East Croydon...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the London Midland price cuts at Milton Keynes are temporary for 12 weeks- they've also launched a cheaper off-peak single at £12.

London Midland cannot launch "London Midland Only" tickets, except Advance, as they are the fare-setting TOC for the route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

London Midland cannot launch "London Midland Only" tickets, except Advance, as they are the fare-setting TOC for the route.

I thought Milton Keynes to London was a unique exception (now that Gatwick Express is no longer a TOC), where this is actually allowed?

 

[gordonthemoron]

LM have had London Midland Only off peak day returns and one day offpeak travelcards from MK to London for ages

 

[Tetchytyke]

I thought Milton Keynes to London was a unique exception (now that Gatwick Express is no longer a TOC), where this is actually allowed?

Interesting, it may well be. I was working on the assumption it wasn't because of how London Midland phrased their recent press release about tickets at Milton Keynes http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...s-with-london-midland-s-new-rail-fare-1054580

*Under TSA (Ticketing & Settlement Agreement) we are only permitted to have the fare available for a maximum of 12 weeks.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes, that is interesting. It could be they are only allowed to have TOC-only fares for certain ticket types. Or maybe they are confused themselves?! Or maybe they are being disingenuous. Temporary fares can only be available for 12 weeks, but if they wanted to keep it for longer why couldn't they make it a permanent fare?!

 

[IanD]

Terry Oliver, London Midland’s head of route for West Coast services said, “This brand new ticket is great news for both leisure and business customers, as it allows you to travel to the capital and come back on a different day for less.

Less than what? Less than the £19.70 VT only off-peak return valid to return up to 1 month later and valid for return in the morning peak so more flexible to boot?

 

[gordonthemoron]

keep quiet about that one

 

[tractakid]

I thought Milton Keynes to London was a unique exception (now that Gatwick Express is no longer a TOC), where this is actually allowed?

It makes sense, as although London Midland is the lead operator, Virgin's service is seen as the faster and more attractive & premium offering.

London Midland need the specific fares to entice people onto the less attractive offering, which isn't common for someone that is the lead operator!

It does make sense that LM is the lead operator though, as they provide the consistent service, especially during the peak.

 

[Hadders]

Competition is good but there are some downsides:

It massively complicates the fares structure, not just from MKC but also from places further north (such as Northampton) where it can become cheaper to split.

Anyone wishing to use one operator on the way out and another on the return misses out on the benefits of competition. Is this right or desirable?

 

[tractakid]

Well, several times I have travelled to London with Southern (usually to get there early on the 0913) and returned with London Midland, in this instance I buy an off peak day return to Bletchley and an any permitted travelcard from Bletchley, which is priced the same as an operator specific ticket from Milton Keynes. This saves money compared to the any permitted ticket from MK.

 

[greatkingrat]

Well, several times I have travelled to London with Southern (usually to get there early on the 0913) and returned with London Midland, in this instance I buy an off peak day return to Bletchley and an any permitted travelcard from Bletchley, which is priced the same as an operator specific ticket from Milton Keynes. This saves money compared to the any permitted ticket from MK.

However that combination would rule out Virgin as well as fast LM services that don't call at Bletchley.

 

[tractakid]

However that combination would rule out Virgin as well as fast LM services that don't call at Bletchley.

Indeed, but at the time I usually return back the last LM service to skip Bletchley has already departed! Virgin's service around that time also isn't so great, being infrequent, slow, and finishing earlier.

 

[Hadders]

Well, several times I have travelled to London with Southern (usually to get there early on the 0913) and returned with London Midland, in this instance I buy an off peak day return to Bletchley and an any permitted travelcard from Bletchley, which is priced the same as an operator specific ticket from Milton Keynes. This saves money compared to the any permitted ticket from MK.

This is fine for those of us 'in the know' but is an example of the complification that arises from additional competition.

 

[Greeby]

Yes, that is interesting. It could be they are only allowed to have TOC-only fares for certain ticket types. Or maybe they are confused themselves?! Or maybe they are being disingenuous. Temporary fares can only be available for 12 weeks, but if they wanted to keep it for longer why couldn't they make it a permanent fare?!

The London Midland Only fares for Off-Peak Day Return and Off-Peak Travelcard were inherited from Silverlink and can be traced as far back as 2001, as Silverlink's press release at the time showed

http://web.archive.org/web/20020606105317/http://www.silverlink-trains.com/about/index.html (Go into press releases archive section, then the link for 2nd January 2002)

From what I understand, there's an agreement to grandfather these fares that has to be renewed every year.

 

[All Line Rover]

This is fine for those of us 'in the know' but is an example of the complification that arises from additional competition.

Competition provides choice and freedom. Greater choice inevitably results in additional complexity, but that is no bad thing. Those passengers who value the choice that competition brings can buy the best value ticket for their journey. Those passengers who desire complete simplicity can continue to purchase the £38 'Any Permitted' SDR fare. If there was no competition, that fare would continue to exist at the same price, but all those passengers who benefit from competition would lose out. No one would be better off.

One could equally well argue that the mobile phone industry is 'too complicated'. Too many phones, too many tariffs. How about we scrap all phones except the iPhone, and force each network to offer a single tariff, of their own choosing? That would make the industry 'simpler', but would anyone benefit from such a proposal?

 

[IanD]

Competition provides choice and freedom. Greater choice inevitably results in additional complexity, but that is no bad thing. Those passengers who value the choice that competition brings can buy the best value ticket for their journey. Those passengers who desire complete simplicity can continue to purchase the £38 'Any Permitted' SDR fare. If there was no competition, that fare would continue to exist at the same price, but all those passengers who benefit from competition would lose out. No one would be better off.

One could equally well argue that the mobile phone industry is 'too complicated'. Too many phones, too many tariffs. How about we scrap all phones except the iPhone, and force each network to offer a single tariff, of their own choosing? That would make the industry 'simpler', but would anyone benefit from such a proposal?

Can't we scrap the iPhone and keep the others?

 

[yorkie]

This is fine for those of us 'in the know' but is an example of the complification that arises from additional competition.

Would you prefer no-one to benefit? As that is the alternative!

People using Trainsplit will also benefit, by the way.

 

[tractakid]

Would you prefer no-one to benefit? As that is the alternative!

People using Trainsplit will also benefit, by the way.

Will Trainsplit fully understand and utilise travelcard products in the near future then?

 

[Hadders]

Would you prefer no-one to benefit? As that is the alternative!

People using Trainsplit will also benefit, by the way.

Sadly, the train companies and authorities can't be trusted to simplify things without increasing the costs to passengers so on balance the status-quo should remain.

A couple of things I'd like to see, I'm not sure how easy or desirable they would be:

- Operator specific tickets should carry the same time restrictions as the Any Permitted fare to avoid the situation we see at Milton Keynes (and Peterborough) where different off-peak tickets with the same origin and destination have different time restrictions.

- Allow an operator specific ticket to be excessed to an Any Permitted one on payment of half the difference. This would enable passengers who wish to travel with one operator on the way out and a different one on the way back to benefit from competition.

 

[tractakid]

Sadly, the train companies and authorities can't be trusted to simplify things without increasing the costs to passengers so on balance the status-quo should remain.

A couple of things I'd like to see, I'm not sure how easy or desirable they would be:

- Operator specific tickets should carry the same time restrictions as the Any Permitted fare to avoid the situation we see at Milton Keynes (and Peterborough) where different off-peak tickets with the same origin and destination have different time restrictions.

- Allow an operator specific ticket to be excessed to an Any Permitted one on payment of half the difference. This would enable passengers who wish to travel with one operator on the way out and a different one on the way back to benefit from competition.

I believe that the restriction codes for operator restricted travelcards from Milton Keynes match their any permitted counterparts. I did some searching and found the post I was thinking about: (it was a lot more than the 6 passengers I thought in the first post!)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1515057&postcount=13

I think the second option makes a lot of sense from a passenger viewpoint, but I doubt it is an easy problem to solve from an administrative viewpoint, as I guess money that has been allocated to one train company would have to be reduced. As I expect LM get more money from their cheaper restricted fare than their share of the more expensive any permitted fare, money would have to be taken from LM and given to Virgin on purchase of an excess. I am guessing, anyway.

 

[amateur]

Slightly off topic, but do the VT staff have a superiority complex over the LM staff at say Eus, Bham New Str or Mkc? Is there a "them" and "us" or are they all one big happy "railway family"

 

[tractakid]

One of the VT guards I had on a train from Birmingham was practically insulting about London Midland. He definitely had some sort of superiority complex.

 

[tractakid]

Ha. Just seen the change to restriction code LW. I guess London Midland didn't like Virgin having the last service back from Euston before the evening peak. (since VT introduced set-down at MK on the 1643)

Time changed by 5 minutes to allow travel on the 1646 Crewe service with the return potion of an off peak day return or travelcard between MK and London.

 

[MK Tom]

Can you actually get a Southern only travelcard from MKC?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Can you actually get a Southern only travelcard from MKC?

Seeing it was in NFM 19, I tried to at the booking office but the clerk said it was unavailable for selection.

 

[156402]

Competition is good but there are some downsides:

It massively complicates the fares structure, not just from MKC but also from places further north (such as Northampton) where it can become cheaper to split.

Anyone wishing to use one operator on the way out and another on the return misses out on the benefits of competition. Is this right or desirable?

With regards to the latter, if no competition existed then only one set of fares would generally apply (the any permitted, be it advance or walk on) so those who want to use either now the any permitted fare applies.

Surely the current operator specific tickets should be seen in the same light as advance tickets as in your restrict your journey opportunities (in this case by operator rather than train time) for a cheaper fare. At present, people have choices (albeit a complex range) so they can make their own decisions on who to travel with.

A situation like this will never be able to please 100% of passengers so the 'right or desirable' quote is in my view a bit relevant as they is no way of catering for everybodies circumstance. The only way to do so would be to only have any permitted fares which are the higher price and is the scenario on most routes in the UK thus defeating the object of competition.

Of course, future rounds of franchising could take away the current situation if London Midland and Virgin services were under one franchise. A similar situation occurred about 10 years ago on the Ipswich London corridor when the TOC's were merged and the cheaper operator specific tickets vanished overnight which left advance tickets only on a smaller amount of trains. Another situation approaching of the same is the merger of FCC, Southern and GatEx services early next year.

Interestingly, no one has mentioned the fact that actually finding a seat on a VT from MKC could prove troublesome on London bound services vice LM which could be argued as a 'con' against.

 

[tractakid]

Can you actually get a Southern only travelcard from MKC?

Search NRE for a return to Kensington Olympia, then select 'with travelcard'. Available to buy from Southern's mixing desk at least.