Places where the speed limit should be more/less?

[edwin_m]

Leeds-Glasgow via Edinburgh also serves several places in between that are much larger than Carlisle, so unsurprisingly has more frequent connections as well as being generally faster due to using the ECML for much of the way. I notice however that the fares are cheaper via Carlisle, which they probably wouldn't be if it was the quickest route.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Much of the Chiltern line has differential speeds of 60/90 or 60/100. Would a resignalling allow MUs to do 90 or 100mph?

 

[edwin_m]

Much of the Chiltern line has differential speeds of 60/90 or 60/100. Would a resignalling allow MUs to do 90 or 100mph?

Can't MUs take the higher of differential speeds anyway?

 

[notadriver]

Can't MUs take the higher of differential speeds anyway?

Exactly.

 

[Polarbear]

One restriction that I used to notice was westbound from Crewe to Chester. Although the majority of the line was cleared for 90mph some years back, there (was) a short section pegged at 65mph just prior to Beeston Castle station. Through the reverse curves, the limit raised to 75 mph, then another burst of 90 up to Christleton Tunnel.

Although it's a very short section, it's noticeable on westbound trains & must add a little time to schedules, as well as increase fuel useage/brake pad wear etc? Would even be better if it could be tweaked to 75 mph which would at least even out the profile & make it easier for drivers.

 

[notadriver]

I only run at line speeds if late. Otherwise it's a economical driving profile which is way under the speed limit.

 

[The Planner]

Much of the Chiltern line has differential speeds of 60/90 or 60/100. Would a resignalling allow MUs to do 90 or 100mph?

Was resignalled only a few years ago, wont see anything else until ERTMS. Like already said MUs can do the top speed.
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One restriction that I used to notice was westbound from Crewe to Chester. Although the majority of the line was cleared for 90mph some years back, there (was) a short section pegged at 65mph just prior to Beeston Castle station. Through the reverse curves, the limit raised to 75 mph, then another burst of 90 up to Christleton Tunnel.

Although it's a very short section, it's noticeable on westbound trains & must add a little time to schedules, as well as increase fuel useage/brake pad wear etc? Would even be better if it could be tweaked to 75 mph which would at least even out the profile & make it easier for drivers.

Its also down to the crossover at Beeston which comes out when Beeston and one of the Crewe boxes come out next year, bizarrely I have heard stories tbe speed isnt going up there though. Doubt there is more than half a minute to be had though.
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I only run at line speeds if late. Otherwise it's a economical driving profile which is way under the speed limit.

Sounds a good way to save NR cash by reducing speed limits if the timetable is achievable on eco driving.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

We should be increasing speeds,not reducing them. The idea of rail is to get from one place to another as quickly as possible, not as slow as possible.

 

[The Planner]

My response was tongue in cheek, however with eco driving, onset of DAS, mixed traffic railway etc it is now getting to the point where affordability really comes into play. If the issue of fuel costs etc werent an issue and trains were driven more aggresively for want of a better phrase it is arguble that some enhancement schemes wouldnt actually be necessary. There is also the issue of speed vs frequency, they dont always mix.

 

[LLivery]

(London Bridge) New Cross Gate - East Croydon fasts just seem a bit slow to me. Its between 60-70mph. The slows are 60mph. The corners aren't sharp, its not bumpy at all nor are the signals very close together. Yet the (London Victoria) Clapham Junction - East Croydon fasts are 90mph and has a higher frequency, sharper corners and is a bit bumpy! The SWML fasts could be 100-110mph if we had overhead power.

 

[notadriver]

Clapham Junction to East Croydon is still 70 mph. I think there is scope to raise the limit to 80 if the point work at junctions can take the stress.

 

[Bald Rick]

(London Bridge) New Cross Gate - East Croydon fasts just seem a bit slow to me. Its between 60-70mph. The slows are 60mph. The corners aren't sharp, its not bumpy at all nor are the signals very close together. Yet the (London Victoria) Clapham Junction - East Croydon fasts are 90mph and has a higher frequency, sharper corners and is a bit bumpy! The SWML fasts could be 100-110mph if we had overhead power.

Signal spacing is the issue on the fasts between Norwood Jn and New Cross Gate. I've measured it myself and used the braking charts.
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Clapham Junction to East Croydon is still 70 mph. I think there is scope to raise the limit to 80 if the point work at junctions can take the stress.

Signal spacing again.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Also the service frequency doesn't do it any favours either, with the frequency of trains, there's not going to be a lot of opportunities to take advantage of the slight increase in speed and besides most services call at East Croydon, so all you'll get is bunching as you do at Clapham now.

 

[notadriver]

Agreed where I enter London except on Sunday's I have to do about 15 mph below line speed to avoid catching the one up in front.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Except on Sunday's what?

 

[najaB]

Except on Sunday's what?

I think notadriver's statement could be punctuated as: "Agreed. Where I enter London (except on Sundays) I have to do about 15 mph below line speed to avoid catching the one up in front."

 

[Aictos]

One for Bald Rick/SWT Passenger/Class 377/5 any idea if any improvements could be made to the Thameslink Bedford to Brighton via Elephant and Castle route as I was discussing this with a colleague yesterday on while it might be the more direct route then via London Bridge it's a hella of a lot slower.

Is it linespeeds/signalling/number of trains in that area which makes that route so damn slow?

What if anything can be done to reduce the journey time on this route especially when you consider the ongoing works at London Bridge.

 

[notadriver]

I think notadriver's statement could be punctuated as: "Agreed. Where I enter London (except on Sundays) I have to do about 15 mph below line speed to avoid catching the one up in front."

Thanks for that. I was writing quickly and forgot to punctuate :cry::cry:

 

[najaB]

Thanks for that. I was writing quickly and forgot to punctuate :cry::cry:

I guessed it was posted from a phone - getting punctuation right on them is hit-and-miss at the best of times.

 

[LLivery]

Clapham Junction to East Croydon is still 70 mph. I think there is scope to raise the limit to 80 if the point work at junctions can take the stress.

Oh right, it seems much faster than the Sydenham route. Especially through Norbury.
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Signal spacing is the issue on the fasts between Norwood Jn and New Cross Gate. I've measured it myself and used the braking charts.
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Signal spacing again.

Fair enough, I didn't think they are that close.
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One for Bald Rick/SWT Passenger/Class 377/5 any idea if any improvements could be made to the Thameslink Bedford to Brighton via Elephant and Castle route as I was discussing this with a colleague yesterday on while it might be the more direct route then via London Bridge it's a hella of a lot slower.

Is it linespeeds/signalling/number of trains in that area which makes that route so damn slow?

What if anything can be done to reduce the journey time on this route especially when you consider the ongoing works at London Bridge.

I know this isn't a question for me but

Elephant to Loughborough is quite fast but then it really does slow down. Herne Hill has the flat crossing with the Chatham Main Line with 8tph (I think). Tulse Hill to West Norwood is quite a sharp chord and West Norwood to Crystal Palace is 6tph so it can't really blast through there either. Just North of Norwood Jun it has to cross the Beckenham Jun Branch and flyover the main line, then cross the Sydenham slow which has 6tph on the flat to get on the fasts - which constantly has a delayed Reigate/Tonbridge train! I doubt it could ever get faster.

 

[Bald Rick]

One for Bald Rick/SWT Passenger/Class 377/5 any idea if any improvements could be made to the Thameslink Bedford to Brighton via Elephant and Castle route as I was discussing this with a colleague yesterday on while it might be the more direct route then via London Bridge it's a hella of a lot slower.

Is it linespeeds/signalling/number of trains in that area which makes that route so damn slow?

What if anything can be done to reduce the journey time on this route especially when you consider the ongoing works at London Bridge.

Nothing* - it's been looked at. Too many tight corners around low speed junctions that are very close to each other. Especially with 12 car trains - the back of the train is barely off one junction when the front of the train is on the next one.

* except removing approach control from the southbound line at Bromley Junction. This was done by reducing the linespeed, but actually improved journey times for the majority of trains.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On the subject of speeds, As a passenger, I've noticed trains seem to go very slowly between Blackheath and Charlton, and then again between Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal (both directions) - very noticeable for trains that don't stop at Woolwich Dockyard. Westbound trains also seem to approach Woolwich Arsenal unusually slowly. I'm assuming (though not certain) that speed limits in those sections must be very low. Does anyone know why?

The contrast with the way the trains speed up east of Woolwich Arsenal/Plumstead is remarkable.

 

[Cletus]

I have travelled from East Croydon on Thameslink through Elephant & Castle on two Saturdays recently.
Even with the slow speeds, we still managed to get to Elephant & Castle 7 minutes early!

 

[notadriver]

On the subject of speeds, As a passenger, I've noticed trains seem to go very slowly between Blackheath and Charlton, and then again between Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal (both directions) - very noticeable for trains that don't stop at Woolwich Dockyard. Westbound trains also seem to approach Woolwich Arsenal unusually slowly. I'm assuming (though not certain) that speed limits in those sections must be very low. Does anyone know why?



The contrast with the way the trains speed up east of Woolwich Arsenal/Plumstead is remarkable.

The line has a lot of curvature between Charlton and Woolwich arsenal. Limits are 30 mph then 20 through Woolwich itself. From Woolwich A the line is remarkably straight to Abbey Wood ... Blackheath tunnel has a 30 mph limit to lengthen the life of this structure.

Did someone mention Bromley Junction ? Where is this?

 

[Bald Rick]

The line has a lot of curvature between Charlton and Woolwich arsenal. Limits are 30 mph then 20 through Woolwich itself. From Woolwich A the line is remarkably straight to Abbey Wood ... Blackheath tunnel has a 30 mph limit to lengthen the life of this structure.

Did someone mention Bromley Junction ? Where is this?

Bromley Jn is where the line from Crystal Palace to Norwood Junction splits from the line to Beckenham Jn.

 

[notadriver]

Ah thanks. Never been there

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The line has a lot of curvature between Charlton and Woolwich arsenal. Limits are 30 mph then 20 through Woolwich itself. From Woolwich A the line is remarkably straight to Abbey Wood ... Blackheath tunnel has a 30 mph limit to lengthen the life of this structure.

OK, thanks for the explanation.

 

[317663]

Oh right, it seems much faster than the Sydenham route. Especially through Norbury.
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Fair enough, I didn't think they are that close.
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I know this isn't a question for me but

Elephant to Loughborough is quite fast but then it really does slow down. Herne Hill has the flat crossing with the Chatham Main Line with 8tph (I think). Tulse Hill to West Norwood is quite a sharp chord and West Norwood to Crystal Palace is 6tph so it can't really blast through there either. Just North of Norwood Jun it has to cross the Beckenham Jun Branch and flyover the main line, then cross the Sydenham slow which has 6tph on the flat to get on the fasts - which constantly has a delayed Reigate/Tonbridge train! I doubt it could ever get faster.

Between Wandsworth Common and Balham is where the limit increases to 70. This 70mph limit ends at Selhurst.

Norwood Junction - Honor Oak Park is 70, whilst Forest hill is a Little Slower.
I think Sydenham might even be 75 because when I was on a 319 it accelerated quite much when going through Sydenham.

 

[notadriver]

I think you'll find the 70 starts just south of New Cross Gate and goes all the way to Norwood Junction on the fast lines. There is the forest hill bank to contend with- a steep climb of 1 in 100 from New Cross Gate to Forest Hill. It's likely a 319 will have maintained 60ish on the grade before accelerating on the flat to 70 through Sydenham.

 

[hassaanhc]

I have travelled from East Croydon on Thameslink through Elephant & Castle on two Saturdays recently.
Even with the slow speeds, we still managed to get to Elephant & Castle 7 minutes early!

Pathing allowance for the junctions in between, better to waste time in the platform than to risk getting delayed.