London Bridge - new TT not working?

[Bishopstone]

A revised timetable started on Monday, to coincide with the reduction in running lines outside London Bridge station from four to three, on the Southern side. Certain Metro services now terminate/commence at South Bermondsey, and timetabled journey times have increased for some other trains.

I'm a semi-regular on the 07.42 Lewes - London Bridge (ex-Eastbourne, 2 x 442), which had a timetabled arrival time of 08.50 (I think) but was usually a few minutes late. As of 1st September, the scheduled arrival time is 08.55.

Today, with no particular incidents to report, we rolled in at 09.13 having moved signal to signal at a crawl from New Cross Gate. Obviously, many other arrivals were similarly delayed and return workings to Caterham, Horsham etc were late starting and skipped stops. Twitter exploded, of course.

The problems appear to be the loss of one approach road, obviously, and the impact of three narrow platforms (due to construction work) which means it is taking longer than anyone anticipated to empty arrivals and confirm them as clear to depart back to the depot (in many cases). Indeed, I've witnessed drivers struggle to change ends against the flow of passengers trying to exit the station.

Of course, as the AM peak progresses, the minor delays of 08.00 have knock-on effects until the position becomes dire around 09.00

I get the feeling (via a Tweet I sent, and seeing responses to others) that Southern are aware this cannot continue indefinitely, with key peak arrivals being 15 minutes late routinely and return workings cancelled or not running as booked. The solution would be to remove a few trains from the London Bridge schedule, and either terminate them at (eg) East Croydon (very unpopular), or divert them to Victoria or the bays at Blackfriars, which appear to be unused when I walk past sometimes at 08.30.

So - a question. Is there any line capacity whatsoever to send a handful more peak trains to Victoria or Blackfriars - the latter either via Elephant or London Bridge through platforms?

Are there any other solutions?

Whatever, Mystic Bishopstone predicts a timetable re-cast of some sort, in the short term.

 

[otomous]

A revised timetable started on Monday, to coincide with the reduction in running lines outside London Bridge station from four to three, on the Southern side. Certain Metro services now terminate/commence at South Bermondsey, and timetabled journey times have increased for some other trains.

I'm a semi-regular on the 07.42 Lewes - London Bridge (ex-Eastbourne, 2 x 442), which had a timetabled arrival time of 08.50 (I think) but was usually a few minutes late. As of 1st September, the scheduled arrival time is 08.55.

Today, with no particular incidents to report, we rolled in at 09.13 having moved signal to signal at a crawl from New Cross Gate. Obviously, many other arrivals were similarly delayed and return workings to Caterham, Horsham etc were late starting and skipped stops. Twitter exploded, of course.

The problems appear to be the loss of one approach road, obviously, and the impact of three narrow platforms (due to construction work) which means it is taking longer than anyone anticipated to empty arrivals and confirm them as clear to depart back to the depot (in many cases). Indeed, I've witnessed drivers struggle to change ends against the flow of passengers trying to exit the station.

Of course, as the AM peak progresses, the minor delays of 08.00 have knock-on effects until the position becomes dire around 09.00

I get the feeling (via a Tweet I sent, and seeing responses to others) that Southern are aware this cannot continue indefinitely, with key peak arrivals being 15 minutes late routinely and return workings cancelled or not running as booked. The solution would be to remove a few trains from the London Bridge schedule, and either terminate them at (eg) East Croydon (very unpopular), or divert them to Victoria or the bays at Blackfriars, which appear to be unused when I walk past sometimes at 08.30.

So - a question. Is there any line capacity whatsoever to send a handful more peak trains to Victoria or Blackfriars - the latter either via Elephant or London Bridge through platforms?

Are there any other solutions?

Whatever, Mystic Bishopstone predicts a timetable re-cast of some sort, in the short term.

It may be a question of 'bedding in' the revised layout and the effect this has on the timetable. However diverting to Blackfriars is out. Firstly Southern drivers and guards don't sign either route into Blackfriars (they were conducted during the blockade). Secondly peak Thameslink trains are already diverted via Elephant because they cause too many conflicts and delays firstly with Southern services from East Croydon then SE services to and from Charing Cross - bottlenecks which the rebuild is designed to remove. Thirdly the diversion is largely via Crystal Palace which is one long low speed crawl with multiple low speed flat junctions and the chances of squeezing more trains that way are pretty low. If things don't improve I don't really have an answer other than remove trains from the timetable. Terminating at East Croydon is not much of an option either as the platforms are in constant use in the peaks and the trains have to go somewhere anyway - emptying a 12 car onto a crowded platform, making sure it's empty, finding a path for the train to leave again - even if it's just turning back early the driver still has to fight back to the other end and a path still has to be found. Platform capacity may improve in January when the six new Southern platforms will be open and hopefully free of most of the hordings.

 

[swt_passenger]

Real time trains suggests this timetable worked OK today, was that the case as seen at the station?

If so it's possible yesterday was a different problem?

 

[tsr]

Real time trains suggests this timetable worked OK today, was that the case as seen at the station?

If so it's possible yesterday was a different problem?

As I understand it, there were some signalling issues both yesterday morning and in the evening at London Bridge.

 

[Bishopstone]

Real time trains suggests this timetable worked OK today, was that the case as seen at the station?

If so it's possible yesterday was a different problem?

The Eastbourne train I referred to above was cancelled beyond East Croydon, and other services were up to 10 minutes late on arrival, but not as bad as yesterday.

 

[Deepgreen]

Regarding the drivers changing ends, it would probably be easier and quicker for them to do it within the train when most or all pasengers are on the platform, rather than fight against the flow.

 

[otomous]

Regarding the drivers changing ends, it would probably be easier and quicker for them to do it within the train when most or all pasengers are on the platform, rather than fight against the flow.

Nice idea in theory but there are usually so many pouring off in the peak that you can't get through the first few front coaches anyway. There can be a quite a stream of punters walking through the train themselves rather than struggle on the platform too! I've actually found that leaving it a minute or so before leaving the cab is best. By that time after pushing through the initial scrum that builds up at the front the back starts to thin out.

 

[neilm]

It happening http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...-from-london-bridge-from-monday-29-september/

 

[87015]

'Some issues' is one way to describe I guess, RT figures speak for themselves...
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/H...MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=5

 

[neilm]

It has been shocking I have to say, I fear it will only get worse in January as well

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No pain, No gain as the saying goes. Or would you rather they shut the job up completely and make you use buses & tubes?

 

[neilm]

Well see what this new "revised" service is, but at the moment it takes 30 mins from east croydon to london bridge, at that rate it is quicker to go to Victoria and then get the tube to london bridge. So actually yes maybe they should shut it and do it quicker

 

[Bishopstone]

No pain, No gain as the saying goes. Or would you rather they shut the job up completely and make you use buses & tubes?

Flippant point.

Let's not forget, they adjusted the timetable at the start of the month to take account of these works, including diverting some services and adding several minutes to the ECR-LBG journey time on others.

Whatever models they were using failed to predict the impact of the 3-track approach and narrow platforms. They weren't just a bit wrong - they were way out. This is seriously poor planning on the part of Southern, Network Rail or a combination of both.

If my train is going to routinely arrive at 09.05 rather than 08.55, then it should be timetabled as 09.05. For occasional travellers making onward connections, a ten minute delay could be a serious inconvenience.

As for the evening peak, due to the LBG issues the 18.23 Eastbourne left 10 late tonight, and thanks to missed paths was 26 minutes late by Lewes. This is far from unusual.

Regarding the 'gain' in 2018, we shall have to see. My personal view is that the plan for 24 (?) trains per hour through the Thameslink core is pure Fantasy Island stuff, and within a year the timetable will be re-drawn for a less intensive but more robust service.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Not being flippant, just being blunt.

They've got to do the work somehow & at sometime, so you either put up with some mild inconvenience whilst the work is done for a matter of weeks or if you don't like it get up earlier & come to Clapham Jn, go to Waterloo & then down to London Bridge.

Either way the work has to be done like it or lump it, it's for the great good & benefit of all travellers. Whinging & whining about it makes no difference whatsoever, it's happening like it or not.

 

[ScotGG]

It has been shocking I have to say, I fear it will only get worse in January as well

I can see the Southeastern side being a nightmare from January 2015. Less platforms and service cuts on some lines with pretty much no slack in spare stock to alter and/or strengthen services. I've seen little that reassures me the powers that be have really factored in the massive upheaval it is bringing and the issues on the southern side do not bode well. References to the Olympics are laughable - mid summer for 2 weeks with years of warning does not compare to years of fewer platforms and long term service changes with demand growing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whatever models they were using failed to predict the impact of the 3-track approach and narrow platforms. They weren't just a bit wrong - they were way out. This is seriously poor planning on the part of Southern, Network Rail or a combination of both.

Yep this is the key point. The models have failed badly and the question is why and how this has happened. What is going to be different with the models from January?

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't understand the point of starting the 0825 London Bridge - East Grinstead at Norwood Junction. They haven't cancelled any inbound workings, so presumably it will still run ECS from LBG and cause the same amount of congestion as it does currently.

Combining a Caterham and a Tattenham Corner departure into one train makes sense though.

I suspect that the models did show there would be problems with the new timetable, but the alternative of removing trains completely was considered politically unacceptable.

 

[Stats]

I don't understand the point of starting the 0825 London Bridge - East Grinstead at Norwood Junction. They haven't cancelled any inbound workings, so presumably it will still run ECS from LBG and cause the same amount of congestion as it does currently.

Its presumably about reduced platform dwell time. I suppose the thinking is not having to wait for passengers to board means it has more chance to depart and vacate the platform at its booked time.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't understand the point of starting the 0825 London Bridge - East Grinstead at Norwood Junction. They haven't cancelled any inbound workings, so presumably it will still run ECS from LBG and cause the same amount of congestion as it does currently.

Combining a Caterham and a Tattenham Corner departure into one train makes sense though.

I suspect that the models did show there would be problems with the new timetable, but the alternative of removing trains completely was considered politically unacceptable.

AIUI the issue is indeed that 12 car trains arriving on (the narrow) P12 are routinely taking 8-9 mins just to unload, and this takes even longer when outbound passengers are trying to board. So the train misses it's outbound slot, and another train is delayed waiting platform inbound and once a queue starts, all bets are off.

So having it go out empty saves the couple of minutes necessary to get it out on time thus avoiding the queue.

 

[Class 170101]

AIUI the issue is indeed that 12 car trains arriving on (the narrow) P12 are routinely taking 8-9 mins just to unload, and this takes even longer when outbound passengers are trying to board. So the train misses it's outbound slot, and another train is delayed waiting platform inbound and once a queue starts, all bets are off.

So having it go out empty saves the couple of minutes necessary to get it out on time thus avoiding the queue.

The only problem is that station staff have to check the train is empty, this takes time. If it leaves London Bridge in service they don't have to do this.

 

[Chrisgr31]

'Some issues' is one way to describe I guess, RT figures speak for themselves...
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/H...MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=5

Ahhh that confirms my belief that my train is rarely on-time! However also have to say I prefer being a few minutes late to being turfed off at East Croydon, as its an Uckfield train it can't divert to Victoria.

The new London Bridge is looking good, although I still think we are going to get wet on the new platforms when it rains.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I don't understand the point of starting the 0825 London Bridge - East Grinstead at Norwood Junction. They haven't cancelled any inbound workings, so presumably it will still run ECS from LBG and cause the same amount of congestion as it does currently.

Seems that they agree with you as it has now been reinstated and starts at London Bridge again!

A I right in thinking that all the Southern platforms reopen in December, albeit they will still have the hoardings masking the escalators to the new concourse up?

Hopefully this will relieve some of the issues at the station. Mind you Southern must be pleased that they use Delay Repay for refunds as under the old scheme they'd soon be paying out with the continual delays in the mornings!

 

[neilm]

Timetable is up for January, good luck everyone!

 

[bramling]

Flippant point.

Let's not forget, they adjusted the timetable at the start of the month to take account of these works, including diverting some services and adding several minutes to the ECR-LBG journey time on others.

Whatever models they were using failed to predict the impact of the 3-track approach and narrow platforms. They weren't just a bit wrong - they were way out. This is seriously poor planning on the part of Southern, Network Rail or a combination of both.

If my train is going to routinely arrive at 09.05 rather than 08.55, then it should be timetabled as 09.05. For occasional travellers making onward connections, a ten minute delay could be a serious inconvenience.

As for the evening peak, due to the LBG issues the 18.23 Eastbourne left 10 late tonight, and thanks to missed paths was 26 minutes late by Lewes. This is far from unusual.

Regarding the 'gain' in 2018, we shall have to see. My personal view is that the plan for 24 (?) trains per hour through the Thameslink core is pure Fantasy Island stuff, and within a year the timetable will be re-drawn for a less intensive but more robust service.

Regardless of whether the 2018 timetable will work, as a Great Northern user I have absolutely no desire for Thameslink at all. I am more than happy to arrive at King's Cross and be able to board my train in a civilised manner prior to departure, rather than having to ensure the likes of London Bridge, Farringdon or St Pancras Int. Currently down services out of King's Cross tend to run on time, despire being a congested route. I have no desire for a through service to/from Horsham, or Tattenham Corner, importing any delay from the southern region! I suspect most passengers on the Great Northern side probably haven't heard of either of these places. Lastly, the class 700 is a significant downgrade over any of the current rolling stock, including the aged 317s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lastly, the class 700 is a significant downgrade over any of the current rolling stock, including the aged 317s.

Suggest you reserve your view on this point until you have actually been on one moving under its own power, which very few people have.

 

[neilm]

No tables on the 700, which is a downgrade on most trains... Even some 319's have tables!

 

[Antman]

The only problem is that station staff have to check the train is empty, this takes time. If it leaves London Bridge in service they don't have to do this.

Would that really be necessary in this situation? The train isn't going off into the sidings or anything and the worse that can happen is for a snoozing passenger to be taken back to Norwood Junction, same as would happen if it was an advertised departure from London Bridge.

 

[bramling]

Suggest you reserve your view on this point until you have actually been on one moving under its own power, which very few people have.

The seating layout and fact that the train is walk-through is enough to make it a downgrade. Unless some *very* significant changes are made to the fleet's design my view is certain not to change. The class 365 is an excellent train, just a shame there aren't more of them, and we didn't have quite so many stabling between the peaks and in the evening.

 

[Class377/5]

No tables on the 700, which is a downgrade on most trains... Even some 319's have tables!

Not actually true. There are some tables in the 700s.

The seating layout and fact that the train is walk-through is enough to make it a downgrade. Unless some *very* significant changes are made to the fleet's design my view is certain not to change. The class 365 is an excellent train, just a shame there aren't more of them, and we didn't have quite so many stabling between the peaks and in the evening.

Making a train walk through is a downgrade? That rather a judgmental statement based on nothing actually valid.

What's wrong with the seating layout? Have you seen the final layout?

 

[bramling]

Not actually true. There are some tables in the 700s.



Making a train walk through is a downgrade? That rather a judgmental statement based on nothing actually valid.

What's wrong with the seating layout? Have you seen the final layout?

OK we'll wait to see what the travelling public make of these trains. I predict a backlash when they start appearing.

 

[neilm]

Only in first class though for tables, unless I am wrong...